MG 7305 Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 Should a GWR crane be freight grey or departmental black? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil gollin Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 I am concerned about the red used on the red one. Hattons describe it as Gulf red, and the photo with a rather dull finish suggests that is a reasonable description. BUT it should be red enamel. A much brighter colour also used on all of the carriages that accompanied the crane - to be finished with a varnish and also ex freight stock which was the same without varnish. Writing is yellow. Look at this collection https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/stewartlanecrane which shows how bright the colour was, some years after the last application. Peter Tatlow has described the liveries used on BR cranes in detail All in the HMRS Journal volume 21 BR Breakdow Crane Liveries - Part 1 The Black Era part 5 page 131 - 134 BR Breakdow Crane Liveries - Part 2 The Red Era part 6 page 174 - 180 BR Breakdow Crane Liveries - Part 3 The Yellow Era part 7 page 210 - 214 Paul . Can you say when the black and yellow stripes were added to the red cranes ? Are the relevant HMRS volumes available on-line anywhere ? Thanks. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 . Can you say when the black and yellow stripes were added to the red cranes ? Are the relevant HMRS volumes available on-line anywhere ? Thanks. . Back copies should be available see https://hmrs.org.uk/publications/the-journal.html Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 Should a GWR crane be freight grey or departmental black? When? Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kandc_au Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 (edited) Back copies should be available see https://hmrs.org.uk/publications/the-journal.html Paul Paul, In the index listings for Cowan Sheldon cranes it gives page numbers. After that it says bc-8. Could you or someone else enlighten me on what bc-8 is please? The index pdf DOES NOT have that info! Khris Edited January 17, 2019 by kandc_au Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 Paul, In the index listings for Cowan Sheldon cranes it gives page numbers. After that it says bc-8. Could you or someone else enlighten me on what bc-8 is please? Khris Found what you wanted reasonably easily without you supplying an URL. You only had to look at the beginning of the volume and I explained that bc was back cover. It was necessary because the editor at that time didn't include the front and back pages in the pagination - which was very unusual. Paul Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kandc_au Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Found what you wanted reasonably easily without you supplying an URL. You only had to look at the beginning of the volume and I explained that bc was back cover. It was necessary because the editor at that time didn't include the front and back pages in the pagination - which was very unusual. Paul Paul Apologies Paul< I was actually reading from the pdf of indexes. Khris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MG 7305 Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 When? Paul Dear Paul Of the period that these cranes were in service with the GWR. Best regards Julian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil gollin Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Back copies should be available see https://hmrs.org.uk/publications/the-journal.html Paul . Thanks for that, I have ordered all three - very good, easy to use website . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Apologies Paul< I was actually reading from the pdf of indexes. Khris So was I, just run up to the beginning of the individual index. As the site explains it is a cobbling together of all of the indexes published down the years - I followed on from George Dow for 20 years but now they do it very simply with little detail - it misses a lot! Pleased you've ordered them, and found the website useful. I was on the committee which went through a lot of pain and expense setting it up - I always recoil now when I see criticism of retailers websites on here. They are very difficult to get right, allow individual pricing and secure purchasers payment. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craneman Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 To address some of the recent comments on this thread: 1) The six R&R 45-ton cranes supplied in 1940 to the SR and GWR and the two supplied in 1943 to the LNER were grey when they entered service. No evidence has come to light that any had been repainted by 1948 and it is therefore highly likely that all were still grey when BR took them over. Grey is therefore only livery known to be correct for any of them in pre-Nationalisation condition. Remember that these cranes had only been in service for a relatively short time upon Nationalisation. 2) The four models initially being released are as follows:- a) 38-800 "SR Grey" - this is SR 1561S in the correct configuration and livery to represent the crane as it was when delivered to Guildford in 1940. b) 38-801 "GWR Grey" - this is GWR 16 in the correct configuration and livery to represent the crane as it was c. 1948 at Old Oak Common. c) 38-802 "BR Black (Early Emblem) - this is ex-LNER 951516 modelled in the correct configuration and livery to represent the crane as it was c. 1958 at Gorton shed as BR(E) (330)122. d) 38-803 "BR Departmental Red" - this is ex-GWR 17 modelled in the correct configuration and livery to represent the crane as it was c.1977 at Saltley shed, BR(M), at which time it carried two numbers, ADM1097 and RS1097/45. The shade of red used for this model is not "Gulf Red" - this is a mistake by Hattons in their description - but is the correct shade for cranes at this time. (Be careful when using photos as the basis for colour-matching reds of this era, not only did the paint pigment fade rapidly, but certain brands of colour film at the time were notorious for misrepresenting reds, making comparisons very difficult). It will probably come as no surprise that a considerable amount of time and effort has been expended by many people to get these models and liveries/configurations as accurate as possible, and each version is based on substantial and verifiable historic evidence. Bachmann deserves a great deal of credit for the effort it has put into this model, it really is exceptional. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 To address some of the recent comments on this thread: 1) The six R&R 45-ton cranes supplied in 1940 to the SR and GWR and the two supplied in 1943 to the LNER were grey when they entered service. No evidence has come to light that any had been repainted by 1948 and it is therefore highly likely that all were still grey when BR took them over. Grey is therefore only livery known to be correct for any of them in pre-Nationalisation condition. Remember that these cranes had only been in service for a relatively short time upon Nationalisation. 2) The four models initially being released are as follows:- a) 38-800 "SR Grey" - this is SR 1561S in the correct configuration and livery to represent the crane as it was when delivered to Guildford in 1940. b) 38-801 "GWR Grey" - this is GWR 16 in the correct configuration and livery to represent the crane as it was c. 1948 at Old Oak Common. c) 38-802 "BR Black (Early Emblem) - this is ex-LNER 951516 modelled in the correct configuration and livery to represent the crane as it was c. 1958 at Gorton shed as BR(E) (330)122. d) 38-803 "BR Departmental Red" - this is ex-GWR 17 modelled in the correct configuration and livery to represent the crane as it was c.1977 at Saltley shed, BR(M), at which time it carried two numbers, ADM1097 and RS1097/45. The shade of red used for this model is not "Gulf Red" - this is a mistake by Hattons in their description - but is the correct shade for cranes at this time. (Be careful when using photos as the basis for colour-matching reds of this era, not only did the paint pigment fade rapidly, but certain brands of colour film at the time were notorious for misrepresenting reds, making comparisons very difficult). It will probably come as no surprise that a considerable amount of time and effort has been expended by many people to get these models and liveries/configurations as accurate as possible, and each version is based on substantial and verifiable historic evidence. Bachmann deserves a great deal of credit for the effort it has put into this model, it really is exceptional. I intend that my crane shall be ex-GWR 17 as it was in the early 1960s; does anyone know of a photo, or can say what the livery at that time would have been? Thanks in anticipation, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craneman Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 (edited) John, Ex-GWR 17 was transferred from the Western to BR(M) in '63 from Stafford Road and was eventually painted red (as in 38-803). I have a photo of it at Saltley in '69 and although a monochrome photo the crane appears to be grimy black rather than red, although it is hard to be 100% certain, although it has the black and yellow stripes. By June 1977 when it was at Willesden, it was in red livery exactly as modelled by Bachmann. I suspect that it had not long been repainted since it is grubby rather than faded, and I would guess that it may have been around '74 or '75 that it was painted red. I don't currently have anything to date it more accurately. It looks as though the black and yellow stripes were simply left when (most of) the black bits were painted red and were not "touched up". In the early 1960s, before the transfer to the London Midland Region, I have no doubt that it was in the usual austere GWR black livery with very few markings and of course still numbered 17. It would have had a white jib head, and steps and handrails would in general have been picked out in white. There would have been no hazard stripes or any of that newfangled nonsense, of course. None of the four models announced so far quite matches what you are after, although 38-301, GWR 16 in grey, is the closest (particularly if you can interpret the grey to be weathered grimy black). No 16 as modelled has some markings unique to 16, but in essence the GWR didn't change much (and never put BR totems on them or lined them out). Renumber, add the white details and weather, and you'd have a pretty accurate model. Edited January 17, 2019 by craneman Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 18, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 18, 2019 Alas (in some respects) (G)WR No.16 is in the wrong livery for me which is a great pity as it is a crane I worked with on a rerailing job on one occasion. With the sort of detail finish Bachmann are likely to achieve I seriously wonder about being able to easily, and completely, repaint it into WR black plain as that 'livery' was. Time for a spot of thinking methinks although thus far my order remains in place. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 Alas (in some respects) (G)WR No.16 is in the wrong livery for me which is a great pity as it is a crane I worked with on a rerailing job on one occasion. With the sort of detail finish Bachmann are likely to achieve I seriously wonder about being able to easily, and completely, repaint it into WR black plain as that 'livery' was. Time for a spot of thinking methinks although thus far my order remains in place. That is precisely what I intend to do - I'll just have to decide whether to include the black and yellow stripes. Regards, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craneman Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 (edited) I think it is a reasonably safe assumption that at some point in the future Bachmann will produce a BR(W) black version. I certainly hope so! There has been a considerable investment in the tooling for this model and the tooling is such that any of the eight prototype cranes can be produced for any time-frame, so I would think that Bachmann will be looking to produce more variants in the future even if only to recoup the development costs. Remember also (as I seem to recall posting many months ago) that the prototypes for this model carried many liveries:- GWR grey BR(W) unlined black (no totem), with or without white bits SR grey BR(S) lined black, early or late totem BR(S) red, lined or unlined BR(M) red LNER black BR(E) lined black, early or late totem BR(W) yellow That makes 13 different possibilities for starters and the list may well not be exhaustive. Since cranes tended to be painted on rather an ad-hoc basis, very often no two were quite alike, and take this, and the different running numbers, into account and there are more than 30 variants, and this is not including the random hazard stripes which have appeared and disappeared over the ages. Arguably BR(W) black and BR(S) black or red would probably have the most wide-ranging appeal of all the possibilities. I fully expect that we will see further liveries after the first four in due course, provided of course that people actually go out and buy this model! Edited January 18, 2019 by craneman Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 18, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 18, 2019 I think it is a reasonably safe assumption that at some point in the future Bachmann will produce a BR(W) black version. I certainly hope so! There has been a considerable investment in the tooling for this model and the tooling is such that any of the eight prototype cranes can be produced for any time-frame, so I would think that Bachmann will be looking to produce more variants in the future even if only to recoup the development costs. Remember also (as I seem to recall posting many months ago) that the prototypes for this model carried many liveries:- GWR grey BR(W) unlined black (no totem), with or without white bits SR grey BR(S) lined black, early or late totem BR(S) red, lined or unlined BR(M) red LNER black BR(E) lined black, early or late totem BR(W) yellow That makes 13 different possibilities for starters and the list may well not be exhaustive. Since cranes tended to be painted on rather an ad-hoc basis, very often no two were quite alike, and take this, and the different running numbers, into account and there are more than 30 variants, and this is not including the random hazard stripes which have appeared and disappeared over the ages. Arguably BR(W) black and BR(S) black or red would probably have the most wide-ranging appeal of all the possibilities. I fully expect that we will see further liveries after the first four in due course, provided of course that people actually go out and buy this model! And the answer lies in your final comment. There are indeed a wealth of liveries available as you have pointed out but the potential problem comes if some of us (e.g. me) hangs back from buying from the first run to get something nearer to the livery I want in a later run. Thus if sales are poor Bachmann might be wary of doing new runs in different liveries which creates a degree of risk. But fortunately looking on the bright side of a possible repaint if John Isherwood is considering a repaint of the GWR crane into BR black he might well also produce some suitable transfers for both the crane and match wagon? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 ... if John Isherwood is considering a repaint of the GWR crane into BR black he might well also produce some suitable transfers for both the crane and match wagon? I think that you can take that as read !! Regards, John Isherwood. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Chamby Posted January 18, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 18, 2019 Definitely a gorgeous looking model and yes its desirable . Looking at it has me salivating . But then put sensible hat on . What would I do with it ? On the layout it would take up siding space , so its going to end up staying in its box seldom used . For £212 discounted really head rules over heart! One exceptional model trumps several ordinary ones every time for me - heart will rule over head for me! It looks like it will be a real stand-out model that will draw the eye on any layout, even if simply parked in a siding. Phil. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Downer Posted January 18, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 18, 2019 I think that you can take that as read !! Regards, John Isherwood. If you do a sheet, please include Cricklewood or Stratford as replacements for Gorton on the BR black version! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil gollin Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 And the answer lies in your final comment. There are indeed a wealth of liveries available as you have pointed out but the potential problem comes if some of us (e.g. me) hangs back from buying from the first run to get something nearer to the livery I want in a later run. Thus if sales are poor Bachmann might be wary of doing new runs in different liveries which creates a degree of risk. But fortunately looking on the bright side of a possible repaint if John Isherwood is considering a repaint of the GWR crane into BR black he might well also produce some suitable transfers for both the crane and match wagon? . Unfortunately I totally agree with you. This is a (no doubt lovely) model which is extremely expensive. Apart from the liveries it has been noted that the match truck details vary from region to region (obviously also if cranes were transferred). Why would a 50s/60s Southern Region modeller buy the BR Black version when it has the "wrong" match truck and is (presumably) marked with an "E" number ? I wish Bachmann the best with this model, but I think initial sales will be poor except for collectors, and we don't know how many of those there actually are. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Alder Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 Was there not a comment from Bachmann on a video posted here some months ago that they regard this model as a most likely one run offering? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenGiraffe22 Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 Was there not a comment from Bachmann on a video posted here some months ago that they regard this model as a most likely one run offering? That was my understanding, I'm sure I saw that mentioned quite a while back, one of the reasons I thought 'sod it' and ordered Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil gollin Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 (edited) Was there not a comment from Bachmann on a video posted here some months ago that they regard this model as a most likely one run offering? . Well IF that is true then I think they are silly (and commercially naive) not to do more models in different liveries (smaller number of each equating to more than they presently plan to produce). Yes, the price would need to increase slightly, but it would mean that the GWR/WR and SR modellers (the regions where most of these cranes were based) could choose any of the three liveries. The idea of producing what will be PROBABLY be the most popular livery (BR Black) in neither Western Region, or Southern Region liveries is amazingly non-commercial. . Edited January 19, 2019 by phil gollin 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 19, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 19, 2019 Was there not a comment from Bachmann on a video posted here some months ago that they regard this model as a most likely one run offering? Like the Blue Pullman was supposed to be? (And wasn't) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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