RMweb Premium 47137 Posted September 30, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 30, 2018 ... (Ive took a picture of my laptop screen here) and I think you would agree the comparison of the model to the actual works photograph is pretty stellar spot on. (I did notice in the Peckett works Image, the under frames is lined !!!) ... Studying your photographs, I'm inclined to think the handrails of "560" were polished steel rather than painted black, and the horizontal stripe on the cab sides was bright steel rather than the brass portrayed by Hornby. When I looked at the chassis in the works photo, I thought for a moment we are looking at both frames but no, the frames are lined. I think the frames are the same colour as the superstructure, but whether this is grey or green is difficult. Perhaps there is a preserved engine with a layer of green paint deep down on its frames to give the answer. Without this, I'm wanting to guess grey all over for the works photograph. - Richard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Posted September 30, 2018 Share Posted September 30, 2018 560 arrived from Derails yesterday. Looks stunning as expected. Here it is next to Dodo, awaiting its turn in the weathering shop. If Dodo is an indication of where 560 is going I'd say that any debate over its original colour under that superb weathering is pretty academic 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold NHY 581 Posted October 1, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 1, 2018 I now have 560 to accompany Dodo. Piccies to follow. First impression are that it is jolly nice. Rob. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted October 1, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 1, 2018 Its an interesting conundrum! I believe 560 was built in 1893, long before properly colour-balanced photographic emulsions were developed. The most usual film emulsion then in use would be what is know known as "orthochromatic" and is sensitive to blue and green light only. It is completely insensitive to red light and orthochromatic film can be developed by inspection under a red safelight, ie the developer is in a tray, and the film is washed in it until the photographer can see the negative density that is required. This means that blue objects appear lighter and red ones darker, with green somewhere inbetween. Black, shades of grey and white would photograph as expected, which is probably the rationale for "photographic grey" as it would give a definitive image of the loco. In orthochromatic terms, 560 would probably appear as in the photo on the Hornby webpage either in photographic grey or in green with white lettering and black lining. There's really no way of tellng! Looking through the "works grey/green" photos - many of which appeared in the Peckett catalogue, it would seem, I note the dull finish which is typical of "photographic grey" official photos. The engine hasn't been given the final coats of varnish which would give all sorts of highlights and reflections in strong sunshine (such as one needs for a good photograph). The grey enables all the details of the locomotive to be seen clearly. Therefore I conclude (to my own satisfaction if no-one elses) that the photographs show locomotives in unvarnished grey, not the final livery in which they would have been delivered to the customer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hroth Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 (edited) On the other hand, apart from holiday snaps, you don't really want strong sunshine for a record photograph, it generates too great a range of tones to resolve. Its a perennial problem for photographers trying to make an image to balance blown out highlights and inpenetrable shade. The convolutions required are amazing, google the "zone system" for an example! The best day for an "official" photograph would be a bright, overcast day without any direct sunlight, which wouldn't show up any varnish effects. Looking at some official photos, they're so muddy that you get the impression that the photo was grabbed whenever.... I'm not arguing against your assertion that "grey enables all the details of the locomotive to be seen clearly", it does, the use of grey also removes the tonal imbalance created by the inability of orthochromatic film to resolve red components of the image correctly. The thing is that the tones of the Peckett "works standard livery" approximates to grey when photographed using orthochromatic film so it would be interesting to know if Peckett recorded their locos in "photographic grey" (essentially undercoat!) or after the standard livery had been applied. Edited October 2, 2018 by Hroth Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted October 2, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 2, 2018 (edited) Just to continue the thought track.. https://www.martynbane.co.uk/peckett/locos.htm Look at 1687, 1960, 2108, 2124 to me the chassis is per my thought on sunday.. green on top, grey down below !? - it is clear the bottom of these locos is not the same colour as the top. Edited October 2, 2018 by adb968008 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hroth Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 The Wikipedia article on "Photographic Grey" is worth a look. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photographic_grey Of course, the other factor is the amount of lining applied to the photographed locomotive. Whilst some have no lining, others have a simplified lining, the original Peckett displays such a simplified scheme, so on balance I think that it probably was "grey" rather than the Works Green. To be honest, the other Elephant In The Room is that lettering along the bottom of the footplate... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted October 2, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 2, 2018 (edited) The Wikipedia article on "Photographic Grey" is worth a look. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photographic_grey Of course, the other factor is the amount of lining applied to the photographed locomotive. Whilst some have no lining, others have a simplified lining, the original Peckett displays such a simplified scheme, so on balance I think that it probably was "grey" rather than the Works Green. To be honest, the other Elephant In The Room is that lettering along the bottom of the footplate... I think you need to follow that link in my post and look at those examples I highlighted.https://goo.gl/images/iFbECn https://goo.gl/images/1KwzQX https://goo.gl/images/UN4uEf https://goo.gl/images/e8CHJJ https://goo.gl/images/Z5cJmH I have a hard time believing the whole Loco is grey, lined.. unless it’s 50 shades of grey with extreme light below the frame and extreme dark above. If it is one shade.. then it’s two pictures stuck together to make that image. That method used is extreme in the examples I highlighted but looks present on many other Peckett images, including 560... Having now seen them, if the Loco is grey on top, then it’s Snow White on the bottom. By contrast i’ll Give you no argument that this Loco is works grey.. https://goo.gl/images/bgDJRr I’m more closer now to believe Pecketts images are Green, with works images using Grey below the footplate to accentuate the parts in official pictures, and probably using grey to number / advertise the factory on the frames / tanks. Whether it left the factory or was ever in steam like that is another matter. Don’t forget Hornby already said they interviewed a former Peckett employee, who stated this livery is what they did, so we’re arguing against the word of someone who worked there ! Edited October 2, 2018 by adb968008 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 (edited) Of course, the other factor is the amount of lining applied to the photographed locomotive. Whilst some have no lining, others have a simplified lining, the original Peckett displays such a simplified scheme, so on balance I think that it probably was "grey" rather than the Works Green. To be honest, the other Elephant In The Room is that lettering along the bottom of the footplate... Well, I've said it before, I think it highly unlikely 560 would have carried this livery when delivered to its first buyer in 1893, unless Brunner Mond negotiated a substantial discount on the as delivered delivered cost. Off at a tangent and further to this post for any considering modelling an accurate representation of NCB no 36 (Peckett 615/96); having now had sight of a goodly number of phots of Number 36 at both South Hetton Colliery & Philadelphia, it was very much in, as built condition at nationalisation, apart from a lubricator mounted on the LH running plate and being fitted with deep steel buffing beams that included low level buffers for working with chauldrons. Following a rebild at Philly engine works it looked quite different. It retained the steel double height buffing beam but was fitted with an angled cab similar to No 34 (HL/2594), a one piece (no rivets) saddle tank and numerous detail differences. Non of the pics show it carrying the "Hazard" nameplate (shame). No 34 N0933_19660715_LambtonStaithes_28 by Tom Young, on Flickr P Edited October 2, 2018 by Porcy Mane 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold NHY 581 Posted October 2, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 2, 2018 I am now on my second 560 as the first developed a limp........ Rob. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted October 2, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 2, 2018 I think you need to follow that link in my post and look at those examples I highlighted. https://goo.gl/images/iFbECn https://goo.gl/images/1KwzQX https://goo.gl/images/UN4uEf https://goo.gl/images/e8CHJJ https://goo.gl/images/Z5cJmH I have a hard time believing the whole Loco is grey, lined.. unless it’s 50 shades of grey with extreme light below the frame and extreme dark above. If it is one shade.. then it’s two pictures stuck together to make that image. That method used is extreme in the examples I highlighted but looks present on many other Peckett images, including 560... Having now seen them, if the Loco is grey on top, then it’s Snow White on the bottom. By contrast i’ll Give you no argument that this Loco is works grey.. https://goo.gl/images/bgDJRr I’m more closer now to believe Pecketts images are Green, with works images using Grey below the footplate to accentuate the parts in official pictures, and probably using grey to number / advertise the factory on the frames / tanks. Whether it left the factory or was ever in steam like that is another matter. Don’t forget Hornby already said they interviewed a former Peckett employee, who stated this livery is what they did, so we’re arguing against the word of someone who worked there ! Well, the Wikepedia article to which Hroth refers us features a Cambrian Railways 4-4-0 where the locomotive and tender frames and wheels are a lighter shade of grey than the rest of the engine, so it was clearly a not unusual practice to paint the bits that might be lost in shade a lighter shade of grey. That and the manufacturer's name on the valence in several photos does suggest works grey, photographed for publicity purposes. That's not to say that the lining out etc. isn't an accurate representation of how a finished engine would be turned out in green. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 Don’t forget Hornby already said they interviewed a former Peckett employee, who stated this livery is what they did, so we’re arguing against the word of someone who worked there ! With respect, that proves nothing. We know for example that in the 1900s North Eastern Railway locomotives were turned out in either lined green or in black, but that didn't prevent photographic grey being used for official photies - a good current example being the reference used by Bachmann for the new E1/J72 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold NHY 581 Posted October 3, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 3, 2018 Not having much luck with this one.......second one going back......still limping... Rob. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fireline Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Not having much luck with this one.......second one going back......still limping... Rob. Rob, is it a constant limp, or in a particular place on the rotation? I had this with a black one, cleaned all the "grease" out of the gears, and it was instantly cured! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
90rob Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 I had this with a black one, cleaned all the "grease" out of the gears, and it was instantly cured! ...same here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mozzer models Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 added name plates to my 560 & painted the Valance Evans & Bevan have bought the Loco from Peckett of Bristol Name plates from 247 Developments by brian mosby, on Flickr 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilkirby Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Hi, Has anyone received their pre-order from Hattons yet? no sign of mine, and still showing October on their website? Neil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lu4472ke Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Hi, Has anyone received their pre-order from Hattons yet? no sign of mine, and still showing October on their website? Neil From Hattons' website: 'Please note that a small allocation of our stock for this item will arrive in September the remainder arriving in mid October' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted October 3, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 3, 2018 HBY.jpg What do I think, comparing it to actual works pictures.. Lovely model. But is it me, or does your 560 look like the chimney is leaning forwards? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adams442T Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 I think that it's a perspective thing..................................... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkSG Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 Had an email from Hatton's today saying that my card has been charged. So I'm presuming it will be posted either today or tomorrow. Which suits me fine, I'm in France all weekend but I'll be able to have a play with it next week when I get back. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold NHY 581 Posted October 4, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 4, 2018 I am on my third now. Removed a load of grease from the gears. Seems to run a bit better. Part of me thinks that there is still grease on the side of the gears which then sticks to the side wall of the gear housing........ I tried about half a dozen. All were jerky to varying degrees. A couple wouldn't move without a good prod. If you include my initial two, the one I have is the best of eight.... But they do look nice... Rob. 10 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Nile Posted October 5, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 5, 2018 (edited) On mine I found the cause of the problem was the conn. rod to crosshead connection being too stiff, with not enough movement. This was limiting the amount of movement at the big end of the conn. rod. There was a tight spot whenever the crank pin was at its lowest point, the end of the conn. rod was pushing up against it. Not an easy one to fix. Can't see why this has happened now, none of the earlier releases have suffered from this. Edited October 8, 2018 by Nile Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkSG Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 Mine did, indeed, arrive while I was away. It's certainly a lovely little model to look at, although it is a little stiff and jerky at low speeds. I hope that will disappear with running in - when I have time, I'll set up the test oval and just let it run for a while. Otherwise, it's a bit irritating, because realistic operation requires that it runs slowly most of the time, so smoothness is essential. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian777999 Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 Would you describe this as a design fault or quality control issue ? Either way, Hornby need to look into this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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