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OO gauge class 74 electro-diesel locomotive


DJM Dave
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  • 3 months later...

Sad news from Kernow.

 

Good afternoon,

 

Re your DJ Models Class 74 order.

 

Thanks for your order for the crowd-funded Class 74 model.

 

As you will be aware this model was announced over two years ago and since then insufficient progress has been demonstrated.

 

In discussion with DJ Models we have today reluctantly concluded that it is unlikely anything will change to make this model possible within a defined period of time so we have decided to cancel the agreement we had to manage payments for the project.

 

As you probably remember, this was a DJ Models project and we simply handled the order and payment processing, with the funds retained in a ring-fenced account.

 

The nature of our agreement with DJ Models was that we would receive a payment for each model at the time of despatch. This agreement was to assist DJ Models getting started and avoid the need for us to charge DJ Models fees in advance of the project proceeding. Unfortunately this means that we lose out when customers cancelled their orders, as we are charged a percentage by the bank when we receive money by payment cards, and we are charged a second time when we refund the payment cards. Up until now we have just absorbed these costs but now we are faced with refunding several hundred orders, the fees we face are quite substantial.

 

You may, quite rightly, wonder why this should interest you! We have decided to make a special offer available to you if you chose not to have the money refunded, but instead use the money towards any purchase from us. We will credit your loyalty account with 1500 points for each Class 74 that you have on order if you choose to have the credit applied to your Kernow Model Rail Centre account rather than back to your payment card. These 1500 points are worth £15 towards a future purchase.

 

We should make it clear that the funds have been ring-fenced and there is no problem with refunding all the Class 74 orders, but we would rather give you a small bonus than pay our banks more fees!

 

The easiest way to let us know your preferred course of action is to reply to this email. Please copy one of the two statements below and remember to include your name and postcode so that we can arrange the relevant credits.

 

• Yes please cancel my Class 74(s) and credit my loyalty account with 1500 points for each model

 

• No thank you please cancel my Class 74(s) and refund the payment to my payment card

 

You can also call us if you prefer.

 

Please note if you choose to have the loyalty credit but then subsequently have the Class 74 payment refunded to your payment card we will deduct the loyalty credit from the refund.

 

Thanks for your patience with the project – we are sure DJ Models are as disappointed as us that it cannot proceed at this time.

 

Best Regards

 

Chris Trerise

Kernow Model Rail Centre

98A Trelowarren Street

Camborne

TR14 8AN

www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com

01209 714099

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One thing that needs clarifying, which is not totally clear from the message from Kernow,  is this just Kernow pulling out or is the project dead from Dave's point of view?

 

Also disappointing that we are all getting this message from Kernow, but nothing from DJM, either here or by email.

 

It is very disappointing, particularly when you consider all the publicity surrounding the ATP-P and Class 92 announcements, whilst apparently no effort at all has been going in to promote the class 74, it is hardly surprising it is attracting fewer orders.

Edited by PeteB
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One thing that needs clarifying, which is not totally clear from the message from Kernow,  is this just Kernow pulling out or is the project dead from Dave's point of view?

 

Also disappointing that we are all getting this message from Kernow, but nothing from DJM, either here or by email.

 

It is very disappointing, particularly when you consider all the publicity surrounding the ATP-P and Class 92 announcements, whilst apparently no effort at all has been going in to promote the class 74, it is hardly surprising it is attracting fewer orders.

I thought I should post exactly what I was sent. I hope DJ keep going with the 74 but I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't.

 

Luke

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The wording from Kernow is precise.

 

“We have decided to cancel the arrangement we had to manage payments for the project”.

 

The email offers the option to apply the amounts paid to one’s Kernow MRC account which removes the ringfence they applied to these monies. There is also a modest loyalty incentive if that, rather than a straight refund, is accepted. A full refund is available although KMRC makes clear that this involves them in a double-hit to their revenue owing to bank charges.

 

Dave Jones has indicated that much of the work has been done to complete the 74s. We shall have to await his own pronouncement to know the ultimate fate of the 74 project. One way or another DJ Models stands to take the bigger hit; which is least painful - to lose the invested capital or to risk losing on a slow-selling model which may never cover its costs.

 

Or just possibly the work and rights might be sold to someone else.

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Hi everyone, to clarify this all........

 

The class 74 is not dead, but it’s on hold for an indeterminate period.

 

Due to problems getting it designed it was felt wrong to prolong the amount of time customers monies were kept in ‘limbo’ without any real progress.

 

So Kernow, who were handling the monies for this project on the back of the class 71, and DJM, decided that refunding / crediting customers was the most proactive way forward in this respect before things dragged out longer.

 

Kernow have, in my opinion, been very good about this as they have lost monies through cancellation charge backs etc, and our relationship is still as strong as ever.

 

The class 74 will, I hope come to fruition, but in all honesty it won’t be for a while yet (and no I won’t be drawn on the ‘while’ timeline)

This also leaves not only Kernow, but DJM out of pocket, having paid charge back fees and for cad/cams and various design work and research. But these things happen, and you just get on with things, and it’s the way you deal with these things that matters.

 

I’m sorry that there are customers that will be disappointed, I truly am, and if things change round i’ll let you all know here and on my web site.

 

Cheers

Dave

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One thing that needs clarifying, which is not totally clear from the message from Kernow,  is this just Kernow pulling out or is the project dead from Dave's point of view?

 

Also disappointing that we are all getting this message from Kernow, but nothing from DJM, either here or by email.

 

It is very disappointing, particularly when you consider all the publicity surrounding the ATP-P and Class 92 announcements, whilst apparently no effort at all has been going in to promote the class 74, it is hardly surprising it is attracting fewer orders.

The 74 was fully crowdfunded!

 

Also mails for sending out the press release passed in the ether so Chris’s went live first. Apologies

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The wording from Kernow is precise.

“We have decided to cancel the arrangement we had to manage payments for the project”.

The email offers the option to apply the amounts paid to one’s Kernow MRC account which removes the ringfence they applied to these monies. There is also a modest loyalty incentive if that, rather than a straight refund, is accepted. A full refund is available although KMRC makes clear that this involves them in a double-hit to their revenue owing to bank charges.

Dave Jones has indicated that much of the work has been done to complete the 74s. We shall have to await his own pronouncement to know the ultimate fate of the 74 project. One way or another DJ Models stands to take the bigger hit; which is least painful - to lose the invested capital or to risk losing on a slow-selling model which may never cover its costs.

Or just possibly the work and rights might be sold to someone else.

My costs are for the development, the finished cad/cam which never came, research, and my time.

This is lost now but is the risk you take.

 

Nobody expected this to be such a prolonged development that eventually just stagnated for various reasons beyond my control.

The model had in fact covered its tooling costs, as a lot of development was done on the twin sister (yes I know) class 71 which would have been the chassis etc.

 

Anyone can take the project on, but if I can get the model cad/cam designed within a decent timeframe to a standard I can show you all, then maybe, just maybe, it’s a slow burner which might yet, like the Phoenix, rise from the ashes.

 

Cheers

Dave

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We've only been given two options - get a refund back to the original card or take Kernow loyalty points in lieu.

 

Why not give customers the option of leaving their money in the project, on the full understanding that it will be "for a while yet"?  I for one would be prepared to do that.

 

It's been a lot less time so far than the D600 warship, and that is finally getting there.

Edited by PeteB
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A sad day for sure, but as I have other things on order with KMRC, I opted to let them hold the money and use it when something else on order is released. Not worried about loyalty points.

 

Speculation, dropped, the project is not dead yet.

Edited by JSpencer
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We've only been given two options - get a refund back to the original card or take Kernow loyalty points in lieu.

 

Why not give customers the option of leaving their money in the project, on the full understanding that it will be "for a while yet"?  I for one would be prepared to do that.

 

It's been a lot less time so far than the D600 warship, and that is finally getting there.

Not at all in the same basket as the 6xx Warship. That is a KMRC commission and has not been crowd-funded. It is entirely a KMRC matter.

 

The emails above make clear why there are no other options offered. KMRC does not wish to act as banker any longer and both they and Dave Jones have clearly indicated there has in fact not been the progress suggested all along and there is no indication of when - or even if - the project might ever proceed.

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.

 

That is a shame, both for the people who wanted a Class 74, but also D J Models and Kernow.

 

"Better luck next time"

 

.

 

It is a real shame, I'm sorry for all concerned. But I'm not sure that it was 'bad luck' this time around. The new approach where crowd funding and deposits made very early in the life of new models has opened up the process to public scrutiny in a way that the traditional. “Here’s the catalogue go down the shops and buy it” approach did not. It has made me realise just how long and complicated the process is before a shiny new model appears in the shops. It explains why Bachmann have models announced five years ago that still are nowhere near sale, and possibly also why Hornby are struggling to match supply and demand at prices that enable them to make money.

The fact that production is on the other side of the world does not make anything easier. Bringing manufacturing back home is often said to be impossible due to labour costs. But I am beginning to wonder (and I say this as someone who has no idea what they are talking about) whether the increased labour costs are the full picture. I imagine that the CAD process, and number of iterations that a design has to go through before being complete MUST be easier to streamline if you; A) speak the same language, and B) you can nip down the corridor and say “no not like that, like this”  I would also expect it to be easier to go into the factory floor and say to the production leader “actually we could sell another 1000 of these, can you make them next week?” The shortening of the time for development and getting models into the shops FIRST, and the ability to rapidly produce more when you hit the jackpot with a new model, rather than having to wait for a new time slot in some factory on the other side of the world might offset the increased labour costs of the actual production.

 

I would be sorry if the class 74 does not make it into the shops. I feel even more sorry for Dave who has put his livelihood on the line. You are a brave man!

Edited by Vistiaen
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I only really bought my class 71 to support the crowd funding effort, in the hope that a 74 would come along afterwards.

 

So now, I am wondering how easy it might be to convert my class 71 into a class 74.   Anyone out there up for creating a conversion kit?

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I only really bought my class 71 to support the crowd funding effort, in the hope that a 74 would come along afterwards.

 

So now, I am wondering how easy it might be to convert my class 71 into a class 74.   Anyone out there up for creating a conversion kit?

You, me and probably quite a number of others. However I like the 71 and as there never was a green 74 a 71 it shall stay.
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You, me and probably quite a number of others. However I like the 71 and as there never was a green 74 a 71 it shall stay.

 

Doesn't stop you having one under Rule 1 - most layouts have "what if..."

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It is a real shame, I'm sorry for all concerned. But I'm not sure that it was 'bad luck' this time around. The new approach where crowd funding and deposits made very early in the life of new models has opened up the process to public scrutiny in a way that the traditional. “Here’s the catalogue go down the shops and buy it” approach did not. It has made me realise just how long and complicated the process is before a shiny new model appears in the shops. It explains why Bachmann have models announced five years ago that still are nowhere near sale, and possibly also why Hornby are struggling to match supply and demand at prices that enable them to make money.

The fact that production is on the other side of the world does not make anything easier. Bringing manufacturing back home is often said to be impossible due to labour costs. But I am beginning to wonder (and I say this as someone who has no idea what they are talking about) whether the increased labour costs are the full picture. I imagine that the CAD process, and number of iterations that a design has to go through before being complete MUST be easier to streamline if you; A) speak the same language, and B) you can nip down the corridor and say “no not like that, like this”  I would also expect it to be easier to go into the factory floor and say to the production leader “actually we could sell another 1000 of these, can you make them next week?” The shortening of the time for development and getting models into the shops FIRST, and the ability to rapidly produce more when you hit the jackpot with a new model, rather than having to wait for a new time slot in some factory on the other side of the world might offset the increased labour costs of the actual production.

 

I would be sorry if the class 74 does not make it into the shops. I feel even more sorry for Dave who has put his livelihood on the line. You are a brave man!

 

I see the point you are making, but is it correct in this instance? I thought the CAD work is done locally (usually) ready for sending to the manufacturer, who then does several iterations for the EP, which is where distance and language could be a problem. The rest of your points I agree, in a perfect world. Or have I got that wrong?

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My costs are for the development, the finished cad/cam which never came, research, and my time.

This is lost now but is the risk you take.

 

Hi Dave,

It is not lost unless you have given up OR you need to switch to a better factory (where doubtless they will have to start over again).

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It is a real shame, I'm sorry for all concerned. But I'm not sure that it was 'bad luck' this time around. The new approach where crowd funding and deposits made very early in the life of new models has opened up the process to public scrutiny in a way that the traditional. “ont]

With crowd funding you need to be really transparent and an open book. The crowd funders are paying a long time up front so yes they will be keen for progress reports. Dealing with so many people can give a mixed feedback, for example, some will want the return within the 2 year target date others will want the best model ever and will be prepared to wait 5 years.

With a catalogue product, you can take it or leave it if the quality was not to your expectations.

 

You then have the third system by Rails, pay a deposit, which could be argued as part crowd funding and part catalogue.

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My costs are for the development, the finished cad/cam which never came, research, and my time.

This is lost now but is the risk you take.

 

 

The model had in fact covered its tooling costs, as a lot of development was done on the twin sister (yes I know) class 71 which would have been the chassis etc.

 

Can I ask, Is it normal to lose money on CAD/CAM drawings that you don't receive? Surely you should be asking for that money back if you never got them?

 

Its a shame as I was waiting to see how this one developed before ordering.. 

 

Cheers

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Can I ask, Is it normal to lose money on CAD/CAM drawings that you don't receive? Surely you should be asking for that money back if you never got them?

Its a shame as I was waiting to see how this one developed before ordering.. 

Cheers

Hi Bill,

 

If you don’t receive items you have paid for, you basically lose the monies paid (simplistic I know as there are acceptions). This is the same for cad/cams or work from China.

 

In recent years we have seen hold outs from factories in China that I am pretty sure certain companies had air tight contracts with, where tooling gets held to ransom, as that company wishes to move the tooling to another factory, work that’s promised and not done etc.

 

They won’t work on credit, so you have no choice but to pay an agreed sum, whether it is a tooling release fee, or a cad/cam.

Although getting to that position where you have to consider the ‘nuclear’ option is a real pain, it has and does happen.

It’s getting a refund on work paid for that’s almost impossible.

 

It’s worth remembering the culture too, and getting to this option, will not ‘save face’ with the factory / designer. Working a solution that ‘saves face’ is a huge problem, and usually takes cash, hard cash.

 

Cheers

Dave

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I only really bought my class 71 to support the crowd funding effort, in the hope that a 74 would come along afterwards.

 

So now, I am wondering how easy it might be to convert my class 71 into a class 74.   Anyone out there up for creating a conversion kit?

 

http://www.dckits-devideos.co.uk/shop/kits_modelling/plastic_dmu_emu_coaching_stock_kits_from_dc_kits_incudes_locomotives_/locomotives_coaches_departmental/class_74_sr_electro_diesel_bo_bo_body_kit_only_.php

 

Pop the body on whichever chassis you prefer, or alternatively retain the cabs and hack them to the sides and roof from the kit.

Edited by Chris Higgs
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I see the point you are making, but is it correct in this instance? I thought the CAD work is done locally (usually) ready for sending to the manufacturer, who then does several iterations for the EP, which is where distance and language could be a problem. The rest of your points I agree, in a perfect world. Or have I got that wrong?

 

As I understand it the CAD/CAM is also typically done in China. Saving on the labour costs.

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