OO gauge class 74 electro-diesel locomotive

[JSpencer]

there is documented 'form' of this happening with China production and other model railway companies worldwide, and you either pay and eat the bill, or you lose.

.

Is there some online documented form to read about please?

 

Technically the hit looks worse, I don,t think you lost just the CADS but also I guess the 71 tooling as well.

[DJM Dave]

Is there some online documented form to read about please?

Technically the hit looks worse, I don,t think you lost just the CADS but also I guess the 71 tooling as well.

Hi mate,

 

Sorry i dont understand your first question. are you asking me to supply you links to the info about other companies who have suffered the same like this in one way or another?

If so, no, but you can search easily enough, it's out there.

Anyway, i was referring to 'form' as in history, geezer....... ;-)

 

As for the 71 tooling, no it's not technically worse at all, as the tooling is catalogued, listed, has DJM as the owner engraved on each one, plus my contact details, and i have a valid letter of ownership from the factory. HMRC lists the tooling as a company asset, and allows me to write down the tooling as normal.

 

At this time, the 71 is still a DJM owned tool.

 

However, it is true to say that as these things will always concern me, as i like to be cautious, this is why not all my eggs are in the same basket, as i have 2 other well known and respected factories also doing work for me, and my recent trip to India looks to be bearing fruit as well.

 

Hope this helps,

cheers

Dave

[letterspider]

I think you miss my point. Dave (the supplier) has been left out of pocket, not us. We desire cheaper models and DJ are meeting this demand by going to China.

 

We cannot change the way China business operates, we have to accept that if we wish to trade there. If the risk is too great, DJ and his peers will not go to China, but the costs will be higher and we may buy less models, but at a higher price. That is DJ’s dilemma.

 

Roy

 

I have to say that what I have read on this thread about the Class 74 development has caused me tremendous alarm. I have a lot of faith in DJM and want to see his designs come to fruition but my personal feeling is that a lot of observers are going to see it as highly reckless to take money from crowdfunders and pass it on to a 3rd party to carry out work without any assurances they won't just take the money and walk.

 

In a time where industrial espionage is commonplace and the truth is perhaps stranger than the conspiracy theories, I wonder whether Dave should give some thought as to whether his opponents in the business field have decided to take him out of competition.

 

For example I think we need to be very, very concerned if (for example) Hornby announce a Class 74 in a few days time.

 

It is completely unacceptable to pay upfront and not receive a service - this is not classified as good business practice wherever or whoever you are and I would walk away from any business which conducts itself in such a manner.

 

I would like Dave to consider what might be achievable if everyone who signed up for the Class 74 put pressure onto the company by using social media, because even the most selfish businessman wants to avoid bad publicity.

 

I think also the Department of Trade should be involved - if they seriously want Britain to play in the global playing field they need to maintain a database of bad companies like this one (same as the Financial Authority does in the UK).

Then investors can check up in advance if a company is blacklisted. This also would act as a deterrent for rogue companies, particularly if they were sanctioned against.

Again this is somewhere where us investors can help and support through social media.

 

This is how WE CAN CHANGE and WE MUST CHANGE the way business operates, after all we can always walk away.

Edited May 4, 2018 by letterspider

[DJM Dave]

I have to say that what I have read on this thread about the Class 74 development has caused me tremendous alarm. I have a lot of faith in DJM and want to see his designs come to fruition but my personal feeling is that a lot of observers are going to see it as highly reckless to take money from crowdfunders and pass it on to a 3rd party to carry out work without any assurances they won't just take the money and walk.

 

In a time where industrial espionage is commonplace and the truth is perhaps stranger than the conspiracy theories, I wonder whether Dave should give some thought as to whether his opponents in the business field have decided to take him out of competition.

 

For example I think we need to be very, very concerned if (for example) Hornby announce a Class 74 in a few days time.

 

It is completely unacceptable to pay upfront and not receive a service - this is not classified as good business practice wherever or whoever you are and I would walk away from any business which conducts itself in such a manner.

 

I would like Dave to consider what might be achievable if everyone who signed up for the Class 74 put pressure onto the company by using social media, because even the most selfish businessman wants to avoid bad publicity.

 

I think also the Department of Trade should be involved - if they seriously want Britain to play in the global playing field they need to maintain a database of bad companies like this one (same as the Financial Authority does in the UK).

Then investors can check up in advance if a company is blacklisted. This also would act as a deterrent for rogue companies, particularly if they were sanctioned against.

Again this is somewhere where us investors can help and support through social media.

 

This is how WE CAN CHANGE and WE MUST CHANGE the way business operates, after all we can always walk away.

Hi,

 

good points but do you really think either the UK or China as a whole is the slightest bit interestd in model trains?

i personally doubt it. and 2k here and there isnt going to start a trade war of sanctions between the 2 is it?

 

it happens, its happened before and will certainly happen again. There is History if you look hard enough with various companies, and manufacturers.

 

if Hornby announce a 74, then good luck to them, and it would be a shame if i didnt get one to market.

 

Please remember that i am using other factories now, and they are eager to please, which is nice and is looking very productive at the moment.

And payments for the crowdfunding models is staged, not whole so at least somethings visibly tangible with each deposit payment.

 

I think, rather than get bogged down answering mails on this, i'm going to leave it alone for a week, and then review it with a possibility of asking Andy to lock the thread as its done and dusted now, and nothing new can come from it.

 

if things then subsequently change i can start another thread afresh with 'Class 74 mk2'

 

cheers

Dave

[JSpencer]

 

 

In a time where industrial espionage is commonplace and the truth is perhaps stranger than the conspiracy theories, I wonder whether Dave should give some thought as to whether his opponents in the business field have decided to take him out of competition.

 

For example I think we need to be very, very concerned if (for example) Hornby announce a Class 74 in a few days time.

ay.

 

It is one thing that a Factory in China did not provide CADs  but entirely another that this is some sort of plot by some other UK RTR brands to conspire with factories to ensure the demise of DJM.

 

Companies in the EU have to ensure a lot of transparency these days and the penalties if found out are huge seeing the individuals involved and all most of the bosses to the top going to prison. The negative publicity would be huge too. In my company we train people twice a year to spot, report and not be part of anything remotely like that.

[woodenhead]

In a time where industrial espionage is commonplace and the truth is perhaps stranger than the conspiracy theories, I wonder whether Dave should give some thought as to whether his opponents in the business field have decided to take him out of competition.

 

For example I think we need to be very, very concerned if (for example) Hornby announce a Class 74 in a few days time.

 

It is completely unacceptable to pay upfront and not receive a service - this is not classified as good business practice wherever or whoever you are and I would walk away from any business which conducts itself in such a manner.

 

I know I made a comment that the Hornby announcement for the 8th of May was an APT but that was a joke, I seriously don't believe that Hornby would accept a CAD from a Chinese supplier who just happened to have one nor would they be out to get at DJM by having a company pull a stunt like this on him.

 

I think Dave is right, if we are going to go down a conspiracy theory route or over analyse what is an unfortunate situation for Dave who has lost out financially on this then this thread needs locking.

Edited May 4, 2018 by woodenhead

[LaGrange]

I think, rather than get bogged down answering mails on this, i'm going to leave it alone for a week, and then review it with a possibility of asking Andy to lock the thread as its done and dusted now, and nothing new can come from it.

 

 

Getting harder and harder to believe what you say on here, you cant just run away from things either and expect them to disappear. Maybe a time for a re-think on what your strategy is. One thing at a time instead of several

[DJM Dave]

Getting harder and harder to believe what you say on here, you cant just run away from things either and expect them to disappear. Maybe a time for a re-think on what your strategy is. One thing at a time instead of several

Why thank you, much appreciated.

 

Who's running away from the thread?

Not me, im just saying that its now a pretty dead issue, its not going to happen under the original ideas, if at all so what is the point of it carrying on? if you have a magic wand that would ressurect i'm sure we would all like to hear it.

 

nobody is out of pocket except myself and Kernow, and of course its dissapointing, so why do you have an issue?

 

The floor is yours.

[woodenhead]

Getting harder and harder to believe what you say on here, you cant just run away from things either and expect them to disappear. Maybe a time for a re-think on what your strategy is. One thing at a time instead of several

Would you care to elaborate?

[BR(S)]

While I can understand people wanting more specific details regarding crowdfunding, it has surely always been clear that there is a chance the model may not go ahead. In the case of the 74, people's payments are protected and Kernow are taking the hit and are giving buyers an option that attempts to reduce this. In other cases, it is the crowdfunder who will take the hit, but this has always been clear as a potential outcome of this model development strategy (and equally applies to items outside of the rail modelling world).

 

I don't think Dave can be accused of saying or not saying anything where he can no longer be believed any more and to me he has been upfront about what's happened when he has news to share. It's clear he's been working to try and get this model advanced and I think many of us are getting an insight into doing business with certain businesses in China.

 

What I believe is now happening is people have become more aware, as crowdfunding has grown in popularity, of the potential risks involved and the 74 has added to the effect, even though people's payments are protected for that. A consequence of this is that more detail about the process and risks are now being sought, Dave is acknowleding this and is providing information based on this need. I emphasise that I don't see this desire for more detail now as a bad thing, but there are also plenty of us that understand this approach to model development can carry some risk.

Edited May 4, 2018 by BR(S)

[Andy Mac]

please don’t let this thread slip into that horrible, cynical, negative poisonous insulting void that’s no good to anybody....

[Oldddudders]

I see the knives are out. How unseemly. If I have read the Kernow letter correctly, investors are now entitled to ask for their money back, and will receive it in full. 

 

If crowdfunding is to happen, then funders must accept there is a risk of neither model nor a refund being forthcoming. In this case the latter is being offered unconditionally, but apparently that isn't good enough.

 

Sigh.

[Roy Langridge]

I see the knives are out. How unseemly. If I have read the Kernow letter correctly, investors are now entitled to ask for their money back, and will receive it in full.

 

If crowdfunding is to happen, then funders must accept there is a risk of neither model nor a refund being forthcoming. In this case the latter is being offered unconditionally, but apparently that isn't good enough.

 

Sigh.

Indeed, I can’t believe some of the comments being made here. They lend as much weight to shutting the thread as Dave’s statement that the Class 74 is in abeyance, so it might as well be shut.

 

I had paid for two Class 74s. I am out of pocket to the tune of minus £30. Yep, I am up on the deal thanks to Kernow’s loyalty point offer. Yet, still people complain.

 

Roy

[Mike Storey]

Getting harder and harder to believe what you say on here, you cant just run away from things either and expect them to disappear. Maybe a time for a re-think on what your strategy is. One thing at a time instead of several

 

Kernow is honouring all monies paid. Dave is out of pocket, unless or until he can resurrect the project, having risked his own funds.

 

I do not understand your incredibly aggressive attitude, let alone explain it. What have you done exactly to promote the creation of niche products, at great risk to your own finances, that justifies such a rude comment?

[JSpencer]

While I can understand people wanting more specific details regarding crowdfunding, it has surely always been clear that there is a chance the model may not go ahead. In the case of the 74, people's payments are protected and Kernow are taking the hit and are giving buyers an option that attempts to reduce this. In other cases, it is the crowdfunder who will take the hit, but this has always been clear as a potential outcome of this model development strategy (and equally applies to items outside of the rail modelling world).

I.

It should be noted though that before any crowd funding model can go ahead, it needs to reach the numbers and monies to ensure the entire project can be paid from A to Z. No money should be spent before that is achieved.

The 74 had enough numbers for tooling only and not the rest after almost 3 years. So would have been a no go.

DJM doubtlessly wanted to get CADS and to hopefully spur the project on either via people signing on or a retail or commission closing the gap.

A weakness of the 74 is the small period it existed and the lack of variations in livery. Doubtless more would have sold through normal channels as a good deal of customers still want to see before buying and not be committed into an order.

Edited May 5, 2018 by JSpencer

[Ouroborus]

The ifs and buts of funding models seems to be across several threads now with much speculation, I guess much of it unfounded. I can understand the APT guys having questions to ask, but as the 74 is on hold for now, perhaps time to put this thread to rest with questions on crowdfunding better directed to the general section of the forum and give Dave a bit of break from monitoring this?

[Oldddudders]

A weakness of the 74 is the small period it existed and the lack of variations in livery. Doubtless more would have sold through normal channels as a good deal of customers still want to see before buying and not be committed into an order.

 

Certainly a niche of a niche model, with very limited operational area. And not a successful prototype, either. 

 

As for sales, my observation is that photographic exposure of late model prototypes and initial releases on RMweb does wonders for drumming up un-premeditated sales. Why else did I end up with Kernow's 1361? Irrelevant to my modelling but utterly bijou. For D&E enthusiasts a handsome 74 could cut the same mustard. 

[Covkid]

Certainly a niche of a niche model, with very limited operational area. And not a successful prototype, either.

 

As for sales, my observation is that photographic exposure of late model prototypes and initial releases on RMweb does wonders for drumming up un-premeditated sales. Why else did I end up with Kernow's 1361? Irrelevant to my modelling but utterly bijou. For D&E enthusiasts a handsome 74 could cut the same mustard.

 

The comments in this thread are quite interesting and present many more questions. Dave says he has lost a lot of money on the class 74 - one post quoting a five figure sum of money. In this sane thread though Dave says the project was entirely crowd funded.

 

I am not doubting either of these are correct and realise a huge sum of money has to set the project off on it's way, so clearly Dave will be out of pocket, but what we don't know is how much the class 74 would have ridden on the back of the class 71. Clearly the mechanism, bodyshell shape, cabs etc would be the same so it suggests roof detail including pantograph well, bodyside differences, underframe fuel tank etc would need alteration.

 

I don't accept Ian ("Olddudders") niche of niche comment because Heljan, Bachmann and Dave himself have brought us models like the LMS twins and many other assorted one - offs. Granted BR blue was the only paint but different numbering and weathering options could boost sales. Is the 74 seriously less appealing to modellers / model collectors the Lion, Kestrel and Falcon, or those little four wheel rail buses or even the Wickham trolley ?

 

The one issue which doesn't seem to have been widely acknowledged in this thread is that Chris Trerise has taken a huge hit in his role as Dave's crowdfunding "banker". As has been said, some crowdfunders have technically benefited by KMRC switching their deposits into credits towards alternate purchases. What a fantastic situation to be in, with zero risk and the outlay "gold plated" by Kernow. So in my view sure Dave has taken some hit, but so has Chris Trerise.

 

There are some lessons to be learnt from this and perhaps rhetorically answering my post from a few pages ago, perhaps the crowdfunding model does work but maybe proprietor needs to tighten up on their business model. I don't doubt that post after post on fora like RMweb which criticise Chinese model production being "difficult" are well founded and correct. But balance that against other model manufacturers who do (sometimes eventually) bring products to market from China. Hornby Peckett, Hattons P and AB and the KMRC Bulleid diesel.

Edited May 5, 2018 by Covkid

[fozzy280472]

A couple of pretty nasty comments made here , a little unfair really .

As I see it ,

Dave announces DJM 74 ,

I order via Kernow and pay for it in full ,

I wait quite a while,

DJM / Kernow announce cancelling of project ,

I receive a refund from Kernow.

 

I'm really struggling to see how I've been had over here , in my view both Kernow and Dave have been very honest and fair.

To be frank I think it's a bit poor to question how Dave is doing his business as even IF he hadn't lost money ( I'm sure he has ) he's no doubt lost a fair whack of his time .

I will order and crowd fund DJM again if they produce what I want.

Cheers for the effort Dave.

[Dogmatix]

I'm really struggling to see how I've been had over here

 

Well, strictly speaking, even in these days of hyper-low interest on savings, £150 over two-and-a-half years might have yielded a quid or two.

 

You might also feel a teensy bit miffed if you really wanted a 74 and bought a 71 primarily to help the project along towards a 74, as some people here say they did.

 

Then there is the disappointment at the model you've been looking forward to for over two years being cancelled, but that's just being emotional, it's not being 'had over'.

Edited May 6, 2018 by Dogmatix

[Gwiwer]

The 74 was a crowd-funded model which has not gone ahead. Every customer has had a full refund offerred by he retailer who has acted in good faith as banker for the manufacturer. If you paid £150 you can get £150 back. Or you can choose to have that £150 transferred to your account with the retailer and have £15-worth of additional credit in a loyalty account. So either way you, the customer, is not out of pocket but the retailer is. Either by paying bank fees on your refund or by swallowing £15-worth of loyalty bonus.

 

No customer is out of pocket. If you wish to factor in interest and the change in value of money overtime then please be ready to pay an inflation surcharge on every item you pre-order a few months or years ahead of production because your initial order at, say, £150 now costs £151.25 to produce whether you paid up-front or not.

 

It cuts both ways

 

For now we have a manufacturer who has lost a five-figure sum knowing the ways and risks of doing business in China and a retailer who is not among the largest in our hobby (despite their high profile) and who must be looking very hard at their own books and how to mitigate their lisses whilst sweetening the customer’s pill. They didn’t have to do that.

[locoholic]

Are there any other known instances of Chinese manufacturers screwing over modelling businesses in this way?

 

I was thinking of ordering a Class 74. I wonder if it would be possible to get a 3D printed body to put on a Hornby chassis?

[lapford34102]

Whatever the back story locoholic has a point. Someone else now has the opportunity to move on this whether it"s a full RTR or something more diy

Stu

[DJM Dave]

Are there any other known instances of Chinese manufacturers screwing over modelling businesses in this way?

I was thinking of ordering a Class 74. I wonder if it would be possible to get a 3D printed body to put on a Hornby chassis?

quite a few if you look hard enough.

the best is changing factory charges, where factory 1 wont release the tooling unless xxx is paid (call it a randsom if you will) for it to be transferred to factory 2.

 

they are dressed up under other names, but it has and does happen.

 

even then theres no real guarantee of 100% of the tooling going on the shipment transfer either.

[tetsudofan]

Like many I was looking forward to the Cl.74's and had ordered and paid for two versions. 

 

I was disappointed to hear that the Cl.74's will not materialise so have just been on the phone to Kernow and, as the refund due just about covers a sound-fitted Bulleid Diesel, No.10202 will be winging its way to me to join 10201 already here.

 

Keith