OO gauge class 74 electro-diesel locomotive

[JSpencer]

33 minutes ago, PMP said:

Hornby scanned the 71 at Barrow Hill 18th September 2014, and announced it at Warley November 2014.

DJM announced it July 23rd 2014. September 26 they reported that they were still awaiting permission to scan and licensing from NRM.

On October 7th 2014 DJM reported they had 'about' half of the required sign ups for production.

 

Interesting then Hornby scanned the King at Didcot June 25th 2014, DJM/Hattons announced King 1st September 2014.

 

Accurascale scanned the HUO Tanfield 3rd week of October 2017, about a week before DJM announced an HUO (of unknown diagram) on the 1st November 2017.

 

DJM has been very very unlucky in announcing at least three WIP  products by two manufacturers, after those 'competitors' had commenced work on them. We almost had a duplication of the Q6 too, and the unfortunate announcement of another competitors 92 if memory serves me.

 

There was around 8 weeks between DJM annoucing the 71 and Hornby scanning it. But surely Hornby must have been researching organising this a few months before.

On the 26th Sept, if DJM  still did not have permission to scan the item then maybe the CAD work had not started. The project could have been cancelled at that point although of course, funders would have had to be credited to someones loss  in credtiting fees (probably a couple of grand).

 

The King was a Hattons project and not really his issue when it was duplicated. Hornby announced theirs almost immediately after Hattons and showed they were advanced. Neither party backed down - initially - causing Hornby's to be eventually sold off cheap which in turn killed Hattons one. 

Hornby being burnt by annoucing their's too early, held their cards to their chest for the Q6, releasing it once it was ready giving DJM no choice but to cancel his. To be honest I don't know why he announced it, he already announced an awful lot of items in his own range the previous year and only one project was actually progressing.

 

The HUO, not sure if that is bad luck really. He had been in close contact with IRM previously over a couple of Irish projects before they went alone. He might of had some hints.

 

There was also the class 59 in OO. He had previously done some work on the 59 in N while at Dapol I believe and maybe it had been in Dapol's sight for OO too.

Of the initial projects, when he first went live. They have yet to be duplicated.

 

The 74 died because in the end, sufficiant funds were not there to tool up AND produce it.  

[Ravenser]

What are the visible differences between classes 71 and 74, and what conversion bits would be needed to replicate this? 

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

10 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

What are the visible differences between classes 71 and 74, and what conversion bits would be needed to replicate this? 

 

Both bodyside grille arrangements are completely different between the 2 classes, and so is the roof.  I think the cabs are the same....

 

So you would have to replace the bodysides between the cabs and the roof.... should be do-able with thin etched brass overlays, in the manner of coach conversions?

 

The boys responsible for Shelvington P4 have/are doing a conversion of a Hornby 71 to a 74, I don't know if they are on here... there's a couple of photos online of the early stages of the work.

[Ravenser]

Just now, Dr Gerbil-Fritters said:

 

Both bodyside grille arrangements are completely different between the 2 classes, and so is the roof.  I think the cabs are the same....

 

So you would have to replace the bodysides between the cabs and the roof.... should be do-able with thin etched brass overlays, in the manner of coach conversions?

 

The boys responsible for Shelvington P4 have/are doing a conversion of a Hornby 71 to a 74, I don't know if they are on here... there's a couple of photos online of the early stages of the work.

 

 

That would mean a set of 3 full length etches . It's been done in the past for things like a 57 , and would certainly be easier than the 22 and 55 conversion kits offered in the past, which involved chopping the bodyshell

 

Etches are not something that require expensive machinery / specialist facilities. There are quite a few people capable of generating the necessary CAD , so a conversion pack should be something within reach for a number of the specialist small traders.

 

Applying etched brass overlays should be within reach of many modellers, and the repaint  using spray cans should be manageable

 

Provided one or other of the 71 models remains available (probably the Hornby one) this ought to be a viable route to a model 74

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

You can always mount a Silver Fox class 74 resin body kit on a Hornby class 71 chassis.

 

There is a thread on it here...

[Roy Langridge]

39 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

 

That would mean a set of 3 full length etches . It's been done in the past for things like a 57 , and would certainly be easier than the 22 and 55 conversion kits offered in the past, which involved chopping the bodyshell

 

Etches are not something that require expensive machinery / specialist facilities. There are quite a few people capable of generating the necessary CAD , so a conversion pack should be something within reach for a number of the specialist small traders.

 

Applying etched brass overlays should be within reach of many modellers, and the repaint  using spray cans should be manageable

 

Provided one or other of the 71 models remains available (probably the Hornby one) this ought to be a viable route to a model 74

 

After the cancellation of the DJ Class 74 it is a conversion that I have been considering quite seriously. A set of etches would certainly be appreciated as those fine grill slots on one side are hard to replicate without. It also solves the roof problem with a big hole to fill in :-)

 

The bogies are quite different as well, but nothing that can't be scratch built in my opinion. My chosen path will be modifying the DJ model as top-speed is not an issue for me and I prefer the internals.

 

Edit: forgot to mention the fuel tank.

 

Roy

 

Edited May 16, 2019 by Roy Langridge

[Ravenser]

6 minutes ago, Dr Gerbil-Fritters said:

You can always mount a Silver Fox class 74 resin body kit on a Hornby class 71 chassis.

 

There is a thread on it here...

 

 

I wasn't aware of the key comment there:

 

Quote

Silver Fox had removed the Class 74 from their catalogue when the DJ Models product was announced, but have decided to market it again.

 

I've done a few Silver Fox body kits myself - it seems from this that the 74 body will fit the Hornby 71 chassis 

[Roy Langridge]

13 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

 

I wasn't aware of the key comment there:

 

 

I've done a few Silver Fox body kits myself - it seems from this that the 74 body will fit the Hornby 71 chassis 

 

Silver Fox are selling them on ebay: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Silver-Fox-BR-SR-Class-74-Electro-Diesel-Locomotive-Kit/202669424113?hash=item2f3009fdf1:g:8W4AAOSwyQJcuGgA

 

Roy

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

Silver Fox are selling them on ebay: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Silver-Fox-BR-SR-Class-74-Electro-Diesel-Locomotive-Kit/202669424113?hash=item2f3009fdf1:g:8W4AAOSwyQJcuGgA

 

Roy

It’s cheaper to buy direct, indeed a rtr painted class 74 from silver fox is cheaper than the rrp of Hornbys 71.

 

http://silverfoxmodels.co.uk/class-74-bo-bo-british-rail-crewe-new-2/

Edited May 16, 2019 by adb968008

[Mike Storey]

5 hours ago, adb968008 said:

It’s cheaper to buy direct, indeed a rtr painted class 74 from silver fox is cheaper than the rrp of Hornbys 71.

 

http://silverfoxmodels.co.uk/class-74-bo-bo-british-rail-crewe-new-2/

 

Wow. Did not even know that existed - many thanks. Interesting to note, for the kit version, that they recommend using the Hornby Class 92 as a donor chassis, and not the Class 71.

 

Incidentally, they ascribe the intended workings of the 74 to the Bat Train. I guess this only ran at night, so there are no pics?

 

[adb968008]

20 minutes ago, Mike Storey said:

 

Wow. Did not even know that existed - many thanks. Interesting to note, for the kit version, that they recommend using the Hornby Class 92 as a donor chassis, and not the Class 71.

 

Incidentally, they ascribe the intended workings of the 74 to the Bat Train. I guess this only ran at night, so there are no pics?

 

I assume you mean class 90  small matter of a few too many wheels.

 

i think the price looks pretty good though considering (mine arrives in the next few days)... though if you want a rtr 6 car trans Penine  it’s going to cost you a few more £’s.

 

the thing is that same morning I ordered the 74, I won a DJ Hattons 71 with sound at a pretty nice price, with thoughts of doing the exact above kit..  I found the website and the rtr 74, not an hour earlier and it was a no brain decision... so I’ve a spare DJ Hattons 71 with sound now.. I don’t need that many 71’s!

Edited May 16, 2019 by adb968008

[Mike Storey]

28 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

I assume you mean class 90  small matter of a few too many wheels.

 

 

Oops.

[Hal Nail]

1 hour ago, Mike Storey said:

Incidentally, they ascribe the intended workings of the 74 to the Bat Train. I guess this only ran at night, so there are no pics?

 

Yep. Spent all day asleep in a tunnel.

[Ravenser]

2 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

 

Wow. Did not even know that existed - many thanks. Interesting to note, for the kit version, that they recommend using the Hornby Class 92 as a donor chassis, and not the Class 71.

 

Incidentally, they ascribe the intended workings of the 74 to the Bat Train. I guess this only ran at night, so there are no pics?

 

 

The 71 will give you a higher quality centre-motor drive chassis , as opposed to a 1990s ringfield motor bogie drive - hence the lower cost of the Silver Fox RTR.

 

I presume the Bat Train was a special train run for the BTP to fight crime "outside the Southern Region and independent of the UIC"

[SRman]

10 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

The 71 will give you a higher quality centre-motor drive chassis , as opposed to a 1990s ringfield motor bogie drive - hence the lower cost of the Silver Fox RTR.

 

I presume the Bat Train was a special train run for the BTP to fight crime "outside the Southern Region and independent of the UIC"

 

 

Hi Mike and Ravenser: I think the class 90s they are using as donors have the newer DCC-ready chassis and the smaller 5-pole motor bogie, rather than the old ringfield type.

Edited May 17, 2019 by SRman

[truffy]

9 hours ago, Ravenser said:

I presume the Bat Train was a special train run for the BTP to fight crime "outside the Southern Region and independent of the UIC"

 

The BTP crusaders weren't wearing capes, by any chance?

[rembrow]

13 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

 

Wow. Did not even know that existed - many thanks. Interesting to note, for the kit version, that they recommend using the Hornby Class 92 as a donor chassis, and not the Class 71.

 

Incidentally, they ascribe the intended workings of the 74 to the Bat Train. I guess this only ran at night, so there are no pics?

 

The Silver Fox 74 was designed for the Hornby ex Lima Class 87, with the single bogie drive. They now must use the Class 90 chassis as it has the same bogie drive and is readily available as a Railroad version.

I'm mid way through building a Silver Fox 74 on a Hornby 71 chassis. The 74 body does need some adaptions to make it fit the 71 chassis. All of the internal body side strengthening ribs and thick panels need to be carved down to make the sides flat. On the 74 internal roof, you need to carve out pockets so that high points on the 71 chassis can be absorbed allowing the body to sit down on the chassis. I used black paint as a marker on the chassis high points,  so I could identify where to carve.

The between bogie equipment needs to be adapted so that the 74 mouldings can be glued in place. The bogie sideframes on the 74 are about 1mm shorter on the mid axlebox to axlebox distance, meaning they will be out of centre by about 0.5 mm per axle. I can live with this, as the level of bogie equipment hides most of this. 

My work on the model has been held up since last Nov as I couldn't  decide whether to add extra detail. I decided this month to bite the bullet and have carved off the moulded handrails and cables from the cab fronts and air horns from the roofs, replacing with handrail brass wire, plastic rod for the cables and Markits air horns. Have just painted the body in BR modern image roof grey for the roof panels and undercoat for the rest of the body, will mask off and paint the yellow warning fronts tomorrow. Hopefully am on the final lap.

Edited May 17, 2019 by rembrow

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

28 minutes ago, rembrow said:

Hopefully am on the final lap.

 

Pictures please!

 

I don't know why I like 74s, I only ever saw two, parked up at Newport awaiting entry to Cashmores, from a passing train.  They obviously made an impact on me!

[Roy Langridge]

I have decided that I may draw up plans for a set of etches to allow me to convert a DJ 71 into a 74. I was thinking of two approaches:

1. a set of three etches: two sides and a roof
2. two etches, one that has the roof and sides on it to be wrapped around the shell and a second that as the raised roof panels etc.

 

What would be your thoughts as to the best approach? I am tending towards the latter option.

 

I was also going to draft the fuel tank sides etc.

 

To help me, does anybody know of any good side-on views of 74s and/or accurate general assembly drawings? I have done quite a bit of searching but have never found a good side on view, photos always seem to be at an angle which, whilst not ideal, may have to suffice.

 

Thanks,

Roy

 

[Hal Nail]

21 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

I have decided that I may draw up plans for a set of etches to allow me to convert a DJ 71 into a 74. I was thinking of two approaches:

1. a set of three etches: two sides and a roof
2. two etches, one that has the roof and sides on it to be wrapped around the shell and a second that as the raised roof panels etc.

 

What would be your thoughts as to the best approach? I am tending towards the latter option.

 

I would have though very difficult to make a one piece wrapper fit snuggly? Whereas you can trim to fit and fill gaps with separate panels.

[Ravenser]

3 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

I would have though very difficult to make a one piece wrapper fit snuggly? Whereas you can trim to fit and fill gaps with separate panels.

 

Getting a wrap-round etch to align properly all round could become a serious issue. Whereas the 3 part etches could each be adjusted for alignment before the glue goes off

[4630]

On 17/05/2019 at 10:58, Roy Langridge said:

I have decided that I may draw up plans for a set of etches to allow me to convert a DJ 71 into a 74. I was thinking of two approaches:

1. a set of three etches: two sides and a roof
2. two etches, one that has the roof and sides on it to be wrapped around the shell and a second that as the raised roof panels etc.

 

What would be your thoughts as to the best approach? I am tending towards the latter option.

 

I was also going to draft the fuel tank sides etc.

 

To help me, does anybody know of any good side-on views of 74s and/or accurate general assembly drawings? I have done quite a bit of searching but have never found a good side on view, photos always seem to be at an angle which, whilst not ideal, may have to suffice.

 

Thanks,

Roy

 

 

This new book published by Pen & Sword has several photos of class 74s, including a couple that are side on shots and would probably be good for your needs.  Unfortunately though both photos are of the same side, the one without the large bodyside grills.  A good starting point, I hope nonetheless.

 

  

 

ISBN 978 1 52672 061 0

 

One very slight word of caution about this book, if from the title prospective buyers are expecting it to include electric units, it doesn't.  The 'Units' in the title refers to the various BR(S) DEMUs.  My copy only arrived this week so I've not yet had a chance to have a thorough look through, but it does look promising.

 

As far as GA drawings are concerned, British Rail Main-Line Diesels (ISBN 0 7110 0617 2), published by Ian Allan and long out of print, but probably available secondhand, is a good starting point.  All the drawings in this book are to 4mm:1ft scale.  The drawings of class 74 are on pages 62 and 63.

 

HTH

 

 

 

[Roy Langridge]

2 hours ago, 4630 said:

 

This new book published by Pen & Sword has several photos of class 74s, including a couple that are side on shots and would probably be good for your needs.  Unfortunately though both photos are of the same side, the one without the large bodyside grills.  A good starting point, I hope nonetheless.

 

  

 

ISBN 978 1 52672 061 0

 

One very slight word of caution about this book, if from the title prospective buyers are expecting it to include electric units, it doesn't.  The 'Units' in the title refers to the various BR(S) DEMUs.  My copy only arrived this week so I've not yet had a chance to have a thorough look through, but it does look promising.

 

As far as GA drawings are concerned, British Rail Main-Line Diesels (ISBN 0 7110 0617 2), published by Ian Allan and long out of print, but probably available secondhand, is a good starting point.  All the drawings in this book are to 4mm:1ft scale.  The drawings of class 74 are on pages 62 and 63.

 

HTH

 

 

 

 

Thanks for that. I hadn't considered British Rail Main-Line Diesels as I have an early copy with drawings by R S Carter that I know are generally thought to be inaccurate. It looks as though the version you quote isn't the same and that the drawings may be new.

 

I will have to order copies of both books.

 

In the meantime, I have bought a couple of black and white photos that, although at a slight angle, are proving very useful for laying out the sides drawings.

 

Thanks for your help,

Roy

[charliepetty]

Or buy the at Aylesbury Show next weekend.   Charlie@dckits.co.uk

[stovepipe]

I think the Author of this book is on RM Web - perhaps he could say whether there are any side on photographs within?

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Southern-Way-Special-Class-Locomotives/dp/1909328685