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DJM Dave

OO gauge class 74 electro-diesel locomotive

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I'm really struggling to see how I've been had over here

 

Well, strictly speaking, even in these days of hyper-low interest on savings, £150 over two-and-a-half years might have yielded a quid or two.

 

You might also feel a teensy bit miffed if you really wanted a 74 and bought a 71 primarily to help the project along towards a 74, as some people here say they did.

 

Then there is the disappointment at the model you've been looking forward to for over two years being cancelled, but that's just being emotional, it's not being 'had over'.

Edited by Dogmatix

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The 74 was a crowd-funded model which has not gone ahead. Every customer has had a full refund offerred by he retailer who has acted in good faith as banker for the manufacturer. If you paid £150 you can get £150 back. Or you can choose to have that £150 transferred to your account with the retailer and have £15-worth of additional credit in a loyalty account. So either way you, the customer, is not out of pocket but the retailer is. Either by paying bank fees on your refund or by swallowing £15-worth of loyalty bonus.

 

No customer is out of pocket. If you wish to factor in interest and the change in value of money overtime then please be ready to pay an inflation surcharge on every item you pre-order a few months or years ahead of production because your initial order at, say, £150 now costs £151.25 to produce whether you paid up-front or not.

 

It cuts both ways

 

For now we have a manufacturer who has lost a five-figure sum knowing the ways and risks of doing business in China and a retailer who is not among the largest in our hobby (despite their high profile) and who must be looking very hard at their own books and how to mitigate their lisses whilst sweetening the customer’s pill. They didn’t have to do that.

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Are there any other known instances of Chinese manufacturers screwing over modelling businesses in this way?

 

I was thinking of ordering a Class 74. I wonder if it would be possible to get a 3D printed body to put on a Hornby chassis?

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Whatever the back story locoholic has a point. Someone else now has the opportunity to move on this whether it"s a full RTR or something more diy

Stu

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Are there any other known instances of Chinese manufacturers screwing over modelling businesses in this way?

I was thinking of ordering a Class 74. I wonder if it would be possible to get a 3D printed body to put on a Hornby chassis?

quite a few if you look hard enough.

the best is changing factory charges, where factory 1 wont release the tooling unless xxx is paid (call it a randsom if you will) for it to be transferred to factory 2.

 

they are dressed up under other names, but it has and does happen.

 

even then theres no real guarantee of 100% of the tooling going on the shipment transfer either.

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Like many I was looking forward to the Cl.74's and had ordered and paid for two versions. 

 

I was disappointed to hear that the Cl.74's will not materialise so have just been on the phone to Kernow and, as the refund due just about covers a sound-fitted Bulleid Diesel, No.10202 will be winging its way to me to join 10201 already here.

 

Keith

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Have you actually bought one?

 

From same website:

 

http://www.dckits-devideos.co.uk/shop/kits_modelling/plastic_dmu_emu_coaching_stock_kits_from_dc_kits_incudes_locomotives_/southern_region_diesel_units/class_201_6s_short_bodied_hasting_diesel_unit_6_car_unit_non_corridor_.php

 

and I, for one, know that these are no longer available. Not the most up to date website is that one!

Rgds,

Just got a (re)confirmation that the kit / body is not available.

 

Maybe if enough of us ask...

 

Luke

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I do have one of the DC kits class 74 kits, which I started building quite a few years ago.

 

It's a fairly basic resin body shell, so probably no comparison to the DJM one I was hoping for, but it might be worth seeing if I can adapt it to go on the DJM class 71 chassis.

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I do have one of the DC kits class 74 kits, which I started building quite a few years ago.

 

It's a fairly basic resin body shell, so probably no comparison to the DJM one I was hoping for, but it might be worth seeing if I can adapt it to go on the DJM class 71 chassis.

Agreed - have removed mine from the "to go on Ebay box" to do just this (might use a Hornby chassis instead though)

 

It'll still look like a Class 74 from 2ft away ........................... and I get to do some modelling too - now where did I put that "02" headcode ?

 

Now anyone want a Black Beetle motor ................. great price ?

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 have removed mine from the "to go on Ebay box" to do just this (might use a Hornby chassis instead though)

 

 

Do you consider the Hornby chassis to be better than the DJM one?

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Do you consider the Hornby chassis to be better than the DJM one?

 

Assuming you don't have one, I think the Hornby are easier to get hold of.

 

Chris

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Why thank you, much appreciated.

 

Who's running away from the thread?

Not me, im just saying that its now a pretty dead issue, its not going to happen under the original ideas, if at all so what is the point of it carrying on? if you have a magic wand that would ressurect i'm sure we would all like to hear it.

 

nobody is out of pocket except myself and Kernow, and of course its dissapointing, so why do you have an issue?

 

The floor is yours.

 

Is that you taking some 'affirmative action'. Some of the figures you are coming up with seem to be a little on the high side. CAD's certainly dont cost that much. Like I said before - work on what you have announced, dont keep landgrabbing anything and everything. Its been proven now that other manufacturers can go from announcement to CAD to model in less than a year, so maybe if you concentrated on what you are doing rather than what you feel would work using other peoples money you might get further. Plus if you deliver you get a better reputation and people wont be as quick to mock

Edited by LaGrange

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I have had several reports about the previous post as being too combative; please rein it in a bit. I have no problems with the points being made though.

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Is that you taking some 'affirmative action'. Some of the figures you are coming up with seem to be a little on the high side. CAD's certainly dont cost that much. Like I said before - work on what you have announced, dont keep landgrabbing anything and everything. Its been proven now that other manufacturers can go from announcement to CAD to model in less than a year, so maybe if you concentrated on what you are doing rather than what you feel would work using other peoples money you might get further. Plus if you deliver you get a better reputation and people wont be as quick to mock

 

Evidence for that assertion please? AFIK, those have come to market that quickly already have CADS, even EP's in one or two cases (such as Irish Rail/Accurascale). I note Rapido/Locomotion are having just as many problems.

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I am still of the belief that Dave’s original business plan was overtaken by events in the modelling world with retailer commissioned models and crowdfunding altering the whole landscape for everyone.

 

His plan of one model financing the next worked when it was just the big four companies.

 

The 74 didn’t reach a threshold for production, the only financial losers were Dave and Kernow.

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Evidence for that assertion please? AFIK, those have come to market that quickly already have CADS, even EP's in one or two cases (such as Irish Rail/Accurascale). I note Rapido/Locomotion are having just as many problems.

Interesting you mention Rapido, I think their SW1200 qualifies.

 

 

 

post-68-0-99467700-1525986206_thumb.jpeg

And accurascale with their HUO

Edited by PMP
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I am still of the belief that Dave’s original business plan was overtaken by events in the modelling world with retailer commissioned models and crowdfunding altering the whole landscape for everyone.

His plan of one model financing the next worked when it was just the big four companies.

The 74 didn’t reach a threshold for production, the only financial losers were Dave and Kernow.

Your first sentence may well be correct but to remain in business you have to be flexible and agile and be able to respond to changes. There is no doubt that Hattons, KMRC, Rails etc are changing the landscape of our hobby and the manufacturers are having to think on their feet.

 

DJ Models class 74 may have failed in it's objective as a crowd funded model, but did it have to die because of that? Would I be right in thinking that the N Pendolino didn't quite make it's crowdfunding target but was given the green light to go ahead anyway ? Presumably the organisers agreed to push ahead against the shortfall expecting the project to break even once the plastic was sprayed and presented.

 

I imagine Dave Jones planned the class 71 project with the 74 in mind. Effectively the same loco shape size cabs bogies etc - just detail differences. To a layman you would expect the vast majority of development costs of the 74 to piggyback off the straight electric model. I would have expected the class 74 to eventually sell and I feel that perhaps Dave Jones has given it a premature death by pulling the plug. However, it was Dave's and Chris Trerise's money tied up in the project.

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However, it was Dave's and Chris Trerise's money tied up in the project.

Which is why I don't understand why people are getting upset about the term 'crowd funding' - surely the crowd funders must take some of the risk?

 

Isn't that the point of it?

 

To 'invest' with the hope of a reward? Even though there is no guarantee of a return?

 

Sounds like expecting having a cake and eat it scenario to me!

Edited by leopardml2341

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However, it was Dave's and Chris Trerise's money tied up in the project.

To what extent is not known to me though the wording of Kernow MRC's announcement of the cancellation suggests the costs to that business were bank fees rather than anything else and some of those have been mitigated by offering a transfer of credit to the customer's shop account.  

 

Which is why I don't understand why people are getting upset about the term 'crowd funding' - surely the crowd funders must take some of the risk?

 

Isn't that the point of it?

 

To 'invest' with the hope of a reward? Even though there is no guarantee of a return?

 

Sounds like expecting having a cake and eat it scenario to me!

 

The risk is that of the project not proceeding.  There is a potential risk of monies paid in advance being lost through improper management or other means but that is not the case in this instance.  Yes crowd funders take a risk though with a reputable business such as Kernow MRC is acting as DJModels' banker in this venture that reputation could have been on the line had the funds not been correctly paid into a separate account and not been available for immediate return. Had our payments been applied instead to direct-funding the CAD/CAMs, which have been charged for, have left DJ significantly out of pocket but were not produced and with no prospect of getting that money back according to DJ then we might legitimately be jumping up and down making noise.  

We have lost out on a model and one which in the scheme of things has not proven to be particularly sought-after.  Kernow MRC has lost something in bank charges, a measure of staff time and is wearing additional loyalty credit costs.  DJModels - potentially DJ personally - has taken a massive hit because of the way China has done, or rather not done, business in this case.  

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Which is why I don't understand why people are getting upset about the term 'crowd funding' - surely the crowd funders must take some of the risk?

Isn't that the point of it?

To 'invest' with the hope of a reward? Even though there is no guarantee of a return?

Sounds like expecting having a cake and eat it scenario to me!

This depends how it is marketed. The 71 and 74 T&Cs were quite clear and under written by Kernow. You paid full money now but could cancel and get the money back. With other DJM projects totally done by DJM, it is a different set of T&Cs. The end buyer (us) need to know where we stand and we can decide whether or not it is suitable for each of us but basically you pay in 4 parts with no option to cancel once the first invoice is paid.

 

There are many different ways these things are marketed.

Hattons - you just place a pre order for their commissions, nothing is taken now and you can cancel later

Rails - you pay a deposite for each item ordered, I guess you loose that if you cancel but it probably gives them a clear order book

Kernow - use a strategy to avoid price increases by letting you pay fully now (those with orders several years old) or paying more later - not sure if you cancel (guess you can) but if you reordered you would pay more later.

Locomotion - choice of pay all right away and get free postage or pay a deposite

Revolution - pay in two steps, I think it is underwritten by Rapido.

And so on...

 

These are all different ways of marketing. Hattons classic pre order method will definitely gain more orders but they probably have the resources to cover it. Other methods that will get less orders from end customers but do bring in resources to help fund it. Biting styles range from people who will take a leap of faith to others who will want to handle it before buying.

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As has been noted in the current Crowdfunding thread, none of these propositions are likely to deprive customers of their statutory consumer rights to cancel or to a refund if vendor commitments are not met. 

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There are many different ways these things are marketed.

 

Revolution - pay in two steps, I think it is underwritten by Rapido.

 

That only applied to the Pendolino when the Kickstarter fell short by 7% of its target. Subsequent models are sourced from other factories as well as Rapido’s. Revolution do ring fence funds for each separate project. Some are coming to fruition quickly now.

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For those who really want a 74, there is always the option of doing some old school modelling.

 

39134773554_f06e4185af_z.jpgUntitled by Shane Wilton, on Flickr

 

cheers

 

Shane

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For those who really want a 74, there is always the option of doing some old school modelling.

 

39134773554_f06e4185af_z.jpgUntitled by Shane Wilton, on Flickr

 

cheers

 

Shane

What's the base model, Shane?

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