The Bournemouth West Model Railway Group / Now known as The South Coast Model Railway Development Group / TSCMRDG

[Combe Martin]

On ‎20‎/‎04‎/‎2020 at 10:55, Combe Martin said:

Many thanks for that.   I've since picked up from somewhere else that the Gresley restaurant cars were kept on the former LNER lines because they had charging points for them which other lines didn't have.  Presumably that means that cooking in a Gresley was electric rather than from a gas cylinder ?, suggesting that Stanier and MK1 restaurant cars do use gas ??

 

I suppose then that your York service had a Gresley because it started on the LNER.  I wonder if the batteries were flat for the return trip ?

 

 

Referring to the above and the last 6 posts, I've now found more details of why some Gresley restaurant cars were allowed to wander away from the former LNER lines.

 

It seems there were 3 built for this as 'anthracite electric' restaurant cars, 2 x 3rd class and 1 x unclassified.   Ie they had a coal fired boiler or oven. What the exact cooking arrangements were I don't know.  Also as an aside, it seems that Mk1 restaurant cars in the 80nnn number range were also 'anthracite electric' !

 

So, any Gresley restaurant car seen at Bournemouth West must have been one of these, and would have needed a fireman !  I wonder if he borrowed some coal from the loco ?

 

Regarding the ones used in the last days of steam out of  Waterloo and the long lived blue/grey ones I havn't  searched for info about which ones they were .

 

Peter W.      

[Roger Sunderland]

AFAIK there were different diagrams of Gresley restaurants. The one on the York service was definitely gas powered. To get the right diagram we have used Bill Bedford sides (it may have been Comet) on a Hornby donor chassis.

[Combe Martin]

3 hours ago, Roger Sunderland said:

AFAIK there were different diagrams of Gresley restaurants. The one on the York service was definitely gas powered. To get the right diagram we have used Bill Bedford sides (it may have been Comet) on a Hornby donor chassis.

 

There certainly were a quite a number of different diagrams for Gresley restaurant cars.  The info I've found from coach type lists only ever lists a coach as a gresley restaurant car and its diagram number and not how it's cooking is powered, except for the 'anthracite electric' ones.  The info about them being electric and so kept on the former LNER because of charging points there, was from another source on here.   

 

I was hoping to find the running numbers of the anthracite electric ones but havn't so far.  They were diagram 267 and 268 (23A was also mentioned though there were only 2 types listed). I might have to find a book on Gresley coaches, something equivalent to Mike Kings southern coaches book.  One other thought, I wonder if your gas one was a 'more modern day' conversion.  Do you have the diagram number ?

   

[Roger Sunderland]

Sorry but at the moment I don’t have access to our notes etc. Another of of our group may be able to help. I will ask.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Is the information in the Hugh Longworth book?

 

Mike.

[leopardml2341]

The blue/grey Gresley buffet car on the WR in the 1970's was W9135E.

Edited April 24, 2020 by leopardml2341

[Joseph_Pestell]

3 minutes ago, leopardml2341 said:

The blue/grey Gresley buffet car on the WR in the 1970's was W9135E.

 

I think that there was more than one.

[leopardml2341]

No, that was the only WR one.

 

Others extant in 1976 were:

 

All 'ExxxxE'

 

9115

9128

9131

9132

 

All withdrawn by 1978

 

Edit: they were withdrawn in 1977

 

 

Edited April 25, 2020 by leopardml2341

[Combe Martin]

On ‎23‎/‎04‎/‎2020 at 13:20, Combe Martin said:

 

There certainly were a quite a number of different diagrams for Gresley restaurant cars.  The info I've found from coach type lists only ever lists a coach as a gresley restaurant car and its diagram number and not how it's cooking is powered, except for the 'anthracite electric' ones.  The info about them being electric and so kept on the former LNER because of charging points there, was from another source on here.   

 

I was hoping to find the running numbers of the anthracite electric ones but havn't so far.  They were diagram 267 and 268 (23A was also mentioned though there were only 2 types listed). I might have to find a book on Gresley coaches, something equivalent to Mike Kings southern coaches book.  One other thought, I wonder if your gas one was a 'more modern day' conversion.  Do you have the diagram number ?

   

 

Referring to the above and my previous posts, and the last few about the blue/grey catering cars, after a lot more 'rummaging' on here and reading mountains of posts and checking other websites, I've found the following.

 

In addition to the 3 anthracite electric restaurant cars, the LNER also built 3 gas restaurant cars (so they weren't conversions).  All 6 were for working away from 'home', and all were used on the Newcastle-York-Bournemouth West route at some point, though I have no dates and I don't know the withdrawl date of these coaches.   

 

The running numbers of the 3 gas cars were 9163-9165, and one of the anthracite cars may have been 9199 ?, though I havn't found the numbers of the others.  The diagram numbers of the 2 types of anthracite cars were 267 and 268 but I havn't found the diagram for the gas cars.  There is contradiction over the anthracite cars in that some say there were 2 x D267 Restaurant Unclassified and 1 x D268 Restaurant 3rd, and some have those quantities the other way round !.    Bill Bedford (Mousa Models) does a D268 coach side etch, but none of the others are listed, (they may all be the same externally, the differences being internal only, but that was speculation from somewhere).   

 

Regarding the long lived blue/grey buffet cars, I've seen 'rebuilt' mentioned against those so I don't know whether they were rebuilds of former restaurant cars or what ?

 

I've seen running numbers of 10 blue/grey cars listed. These are 9115,22,23,24,28,29,31,32,35 and 95, and the WR one was W9135E as mentioned above, though I have seen W9118E quoted too, was it still maroon then ?  

 

Peter W.    

 

 

 

[leopardml2341]

W9118E

 

[31A]

11 hours ago, Combe Martin said:

 

 

Regarding the long lived blue/grey buffet cars, I've seen 'rebuilt' mentioned against those so I don't know whether they were rebuilds of former restaurant cars or what ?

 

    

 

 

 

 

They were always Buffet Cars, but were altered ('rebuilt) by BR in the early 1960s.  I think the main difference as far as models are concerned is that the windows / panelling at the kitchen end, on the kitchen / bar side, were altered.

 

[leopardml2341]

9 hours ago, 31A said:

 

They were always Buffet Cars, but were altered ('rebuilt) by BR in the early 1960s.  I think the main difference as far as models are concerned is that the windows / panelling at the kitchen end, on the kitchen / bar side, were altered.

 

The Hornby model is therefore incorrect in blue/grey; that made the price at introduction even more eye watering than the £50 or so that it was.

 

I've just learned that some diagram 167 Gresley buffet cars are thought to have been allocated to the Southern Region for a time:

 

S9117E, S9124E, S9127E, S9134E

 

Can't find any photos though.......

 

A thread on buffet cars here; I feel this thread maybe drifting (my fault) so I'll post the link below and button it

 

 

 

Edited April 26, 2020 by leopardml2341

[Evertonian]

Peter (Combe Martin) I believe is correct in saying that the Newcastle/York - B'm'th West service

included a Gresley diag. D 268 anthracite/electric restaurant car. When putting the train together

for the B.West layout I used Robert Carroll's extensive notes including running numbers and changes

to stock over the years, all very detailed. Unfortunately memory fades and the relevant paperwork and

indeed the actual model are packed away during the lockdown and inaccessible at present.

Robert's coaching group website would undoubtedly be the place to look.

[Roger Sunderland]

Might be best to use a seperate thread to explore Gresley buffet/restaurant cars. Getting somewhat away from the Bournemouth West layout thread!

[leopardml2341]

4 hours ago, Roger Sunderland said:

Might be best to use a seperate thread to explore Gresley buffet/restaurant cars. Getting somewhat away from the Bournemouth West layout thread!

Isn't that what I said, and in part admitted responsibility for, just two posts ago?

[Roger Sunderland]

Yes

[Ceptic]

On 12/10/2018 at 16:11, Ceptic said:

An interesting artifact has recently come to light over on Network Rail's  'Mediastorehouse' archive site.

It shows the Poole and Bournemouth Railway's drawn elevations of both Parkstone  (South / Platform side and West Elevation) and Bournemouth (Later Bournemouth West) Station Approach (South) side.

 

I'm guessing the date of c.1898 is a 'cover-all' date as the, now, 'West' station would have been extended and improved by then,1889 in fact. The drawing shows the original 1874 building.

 

https://nr.mediastorehouse.com/stations/parkstone-station/poole-bournmouth-railway-parkstone-bournemouth-11883779.html

 

Regards,

Frank.

 

A shade off topic*, but of interest, Network Rail's archive site catalogue has recently been expanded to include many more plans of railway structures, including several showing those of the 1884/5 Bournemouth East (Central) building. Also included are those for the Central's 1928 Extension / Improvements. (No sign of any relating to those of the West station's tho').

https://nr.printstoreonline.com/stations/bournemouth-central/sr-bournemouth-central-new-exit-platform-1928-19594263.html?prodid=73045

 

Also available from  Pinterest

https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/479492691580106489/sent/?invite_code=ef63ebfbe4ff4a53b4088786d91340d9&sender=597501212971193139&sfo=1

 

* In case no one has picked up on the expansion of NR's Archive / Printstore library, I'll bump an existing thread in 'Modelling Questions, Help and Tips'.

 

Regards,

Frank.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Ceptic
Found an existing thread.

[Roger Sunderland]

Good to hear from you Frank. Hope you are keeping well during these difficult times.

[Ceptic]

2 hours ago, Roger Sunderland said:

Good to hear from you Frank. Hope you are keeping well during these difficult times.

 

Hi Roger and the Rest of the Crew. 

Many thanks for your message. Likewise with the greetings, reciprocated from this end, too.

What a year, eh ?. Turn your back for a couple of seconds and 'It' all goes haywire.

 

I had my driving licence revoked at the beginning of the year (Failed medical, re-apply in 6 months ?) and now 'Confined to Barracks' since mid-March for 12 weeks (Classed as Covid-19 vulnerable person) ........ Who's that shouting "Get in, out of the daylight,...You coffin dodger" ? 

 

I'm keeping an irregular eye open for any B'm'th area (West, Central, Boscombe, Pokesdown or otherwise) infrastructure plans that might become available through Network Rail's archive. Hopefully, something will turn up regarding West station's Signal Box. ( I'm still awaiting Hornby's Express blue original MN ! )

 

Looking forward to meeting up with you all once again, soon.

All the very Best,

Frank.

 

 

 

 

[Staffordshire]

  Is this what you are looking for ....

[Guest Jack Benson]

Hi,

 

My apologies for arriving somewhat late,  when did exLNER catering vehicles begin to arrive on the Southern region and did they immediately begin to acquire Southern green or was there a transition period?

 

Thank you for opening this avenue of interest.

 

Stay safe peeps 

[arctica]

Hi There,

Long time no speak- be glad of some advice about coaching stock liveries, specifically in early 1956. My understanding was that BR used blood and custard as it's national main line colour scheme. Were there any exceptions running into and out of BW at that time? I'm thinking specifically of local services or expresses to Waterloo. I know the Bournemouth Belle at that time was an all Pullman rake in it's traditional colours, and I believe the Pines Express was in maroon (but was it always?).

Also, does anyone know where I can find a timetable for arrivals and departures covering March 1956?

Stay safe..

ATB

David

[Dunsignalling]

On ‎26‎/‎04‎/‎2020 at 07:55, leopardml2341 said:

The Hornby model is therefore incorrect in blue/grey; that made the price at introduction even more eye watering than the £50 or so that it was.

 

I've just learned that some diagram 167 Gresley buffet cars are thought to have been allocated to the Southern Region for a time:

 

S9117E, S9124E, S9127E, S9134E

 

Can't find any photos though.......

 

A thread on buffet cars here; I feel this thread maybe drifting (my fault) so I'll post the link below and button it

 

 

 

ISTR a reference to these, either in an issue of The Southern Way or one of the usual carriage reference books, (be it an "LNER" volume or one of those covering Southern Region stock operations).

 

The gist was that, yes, they did get painted green, but that their use was normally confined to excursion and charter traffic (e.g. troop trains). The coach in the b&w photo accompanying the information certainly looked to be in green livery rather than maroon, and was (IIRC) lettered CAFETERIA CAR. There was no reference to what (if any) physical changes the Southern Region applied to these vehicles.

 

I've also seen references to some "retired" Pullman cars (presumably kitchen vehicles) being similarly finished and utilised.

 

I have a photo (somewhere!) taken on my good old Zorki 4, showing one of the late WR survivors heading west out of ExD in the mid-1970s. The Russian rangefinder was my first "proper" camera. I used it for about ten years from 1970, then passed it to my younger brother after buying my first Japanese SLR. I really must get a neg scanner....

 

John

[Roger Sunderland]

Hello David

 

1956 is a bit before our research period so I can’t be definitive. It was around the time when BR was changing its colour scheme to maroon and the Southern had ideas about a return to green so very much on the cusp. Sorry no access to a 1956 timetable, in fact, at the present time, I’ve no access to anything regarding BW, sadly!

[Combe Martin]

Looking at Ivo Peters Vol 2 (1955-1959), the Saturdays only through trains from the north were mostly crimson and cream with the odd maroon coaches thrown in, same for the daily 'Pines' too and the daily the Bristol trains. Some of the Maunsell sets (390-399) on the local services were green (probably still SR) and some were BR Crimson & Cream.

 

As far as a timetable, you need to find a BR Southern region winter 1955-1956 one, it'll include the S&D lines.  It'll be about and inch and a half thick.  Possibly on Ebay ??  I've got a 1961 one, but I'm not giving it up.

 

  

Edited May 5, 2020 by Combe Martin