The Bournemouth West Model Railway Group / Now known as The South Coast Model Railway Development Group / TSCMRDG

[bike2steam]

That's most interesting Brian, thank you. The idea about the figures is a good one. If it wasn't them you approached, I wonder if Modelu would be interested?

 

On the subject of getting things prototypical do you know the carriage make up of S&D services from Bath and Bristol to Bournemouth West, again on a weekday? From what I can tell, it could be either LMS or Southern stock.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/46069-coaching-stock-on-the-sd/

 

Duncan, amongst other things as a member of the S&DRT, has helped us at Blandford on occasions with information on matters concerning the S&DJR.

Edited November 16, 2018 by bike2steam

[Roger Sunderland]

I'm very keen to get the correct coaching formations for all the trains we run over the S&D so any offers of help - Brian/Paul - are much appreciated. Either coach formations or photo evidence would be great. These are the services we are currently running in our sequence.

 

Bristol- Bournemouth West (and return)

Bath - Bournemouth West (and return)

Evercreech Jcn - Bournemouth West (and return)

Templecombe - Bournemouth West (and return)

Bradford - Bournemouth West

The Pines

Birkenhead - Bournemouth West

 

Hope this doesn't sound ungrateful , but hopefully would save you time if I put the following criteria on.

 

Time period is 1959-1962

Layout set in summer months

Sequence is for a normal weekday of operations

Bristol/Bath services - would like to use LMS stock as adds variety and colour (complaints of too many green coaches)

If possible stock to be sourced from RTR ( Pines though currently has 12 wheel Stanier restaurant kitbuilt as seen in photos)

 

Many thanks in anticipation.

[Ian J.]

I'd find that of use too as all those trains would have run through Parkstone in 1961/2. That's one of the two geographical spots that I use to assess my model railway collection (the other being Salisbury, and the periods for both being 61/62, and 84/85).

[BMacdermott]

I'm very keen to get the correct coaching formations for all the trains we run over the S&D so any offers of help - Brian/Paul - are much appreciated. Either coach formations or photo evidence would be great. These are the services we are currently running in our sequence.

 

Bristol- Bournemouth West (and return)

Bath - Bournemouth West (and return)

Evercreech Jcn - Bournemouth West (and return)

Templecombe - Bournemouth West (and return)

Bradford - Bournemouth West

The Pines

Birkenhead - Bournemouth West

 

Hope this doesn't sound ungrateful , but hopefully would save you time if I put the following criteria on.

 

Time period is 1959-1962

Layout set in summer months

Sequence is for a normal weekday of operations

Bristol/Bath services - would like to use LMS stock as adds variety and colour (complaints of too many green coaches)

If possible stock to be sourced from RTR ( Pines though currently has 12 wheel Stanier restaurant kitbuilt as seen in photos)

 

Many thanks in anticipation.

Hello Roger

 

Already in hand.

 

Brian

[bike2steam]

Just a few things to remember, if you already know I apologise for preaching to the converted. Local passenger stock was supplied by the Southern Region (as Duncan/Blandford1969 outlined). There were two sets of stock for each inter-regional service one set supplied by the region at each end of the service except the 'Pines' where both sets were supplied by the Midland Region. The Bournemouth to Bristol service was, more often than not, an Eastleigh working, normally a job for one of their 'pocket-rockets' ( BR standard 4 mogul). A few years ago  Xpress Publishing produced a couple of handy books in their 'The District Controllers View' numbers 4 & 5 in the series covered S&DJR operations, although for 1957 still handy for info.

Edited November 17, 2018 by bike2steam

[BMacdermott]

Hello Roger

 

I have attached an extract from a Freight WTT. 

 

The Passenger one keeps loading 'sideways'! I'll try to send later.

 

If anyone has similar for the other half of the line, I'd be glad to see them.

 

Brian

[dube]

I`ve just been researching the S & D and thinking about doing Evercreech Jcn, I was looking at the Pines but RTR you need a Verstible Composite Open CO, Bachmann do the FO so you could use that, most of the eastern coaches look like Gresleys, you could use Thompsons BSKs and CKs

 

June - September 1960 RTR

 

BOURNEMOUTH - MANCHESTER (PINES EXPRESS)
TWThO

LMR stock

ERMK1BSK-LNERCK-MK1SK-MK1BSK-CK-MK1BSK-CO-12wheelRS-MK1SO-MK1SK-MK1CK-MK1BCK

MFO

MK1SK-MK1BSK-CK-(MK1BSK(FO))-CK-MK1BSK-CO-12wheelRS-MK1SO-MK1SK-MK1CK-MK1BCK

 

Bradford - Bournemouth

FO

ER stock

BSK-SK-CK-CK-SK-SK-SK-BSK-SK-BSK

 

Birkenhead - Bournemouth

WR Stock

MK1SK-MK1SK-MK1SK-MK1BSK-MK1SK-MK1SO-?RC-MK1FK-BSK-SK-SK

 

using the coach formations from the Train Marshalling lists you could do

 

Forthcoming Hornby 399 set SUMMER only
R4840
R4842
R4841

 

BOURNE - BIRM OR BOURNE - SHEFF
ER stock
MO

MK1SK-MK1BSK-CK-SK-CK-SK-BSK

BOURNE - BIRM
TWThO
ER stock

MK1BSK-CK-SK-SK-SK-CK-SK-BSK

DERBY - BOURNE
FO

LMR stock

BSK-SK-SK-CK-CK-SK-SK-BSK

 

Forthcoming Bachmann Bulleid coach set WINTER only

 

 

 

I was going to do a Saturday as there were a lot more passenger trains and I think locos like the West Countries would have been more common

 

My coach Formations

 

SO

BOURNEMOUTH - MANCHESTER
LMR
MK1SK-MK1BSK-CK-CK-MK1BSK-CO-RS-MK1SO-MK1SK-MK1SK-MK1CK-MK1BCK

BOURNEMOUTH - MANCHESTER
LMR
BSK-SK-SK-SK-CK-CK-SK-SK-SK-BSK

MANCHESTER - BOURNEMOUTH
LMR
*BSK-CK-SK-CK-BSK-SK-SK-SK-SK-BSK


Cleethorpes  - Exmouth
ER
SK-SK-BSK-CK-SK-SK-BSK-CK

Edited November 21, 2018 by dube

[phil_sutters]

I`ve just been researching the S & D and thinking about doing Evercreech Jcn, I was looking at the Pines but RTR you need a Verstible Composite Open CO, Bachmann do the FO so you could use that, most of the eastern coaches look like Gresleys, you could use Thompsons BSKs and CKs

 

While my father had little interest in coaching stock, he was an enthusiastic loco spotter. I have all his spotting log books. He made quite a number of trips to Evercreech Junction & Templecombe in the 1950s & '60s. I have uploaded some of his logs and a sample can be seen here. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/78125-1962-11th-aug-a-highbridge-to-bournemouth-11-8-1962-a/  If there are particular periods that are of interest, let me know and I will see if Dad's records have relevant information. There are also photos in my gallery, apart from those that occasionally turn up in the log book pages. This is an example.

Edited November 22, 2018 by phil_sutters

[queensquare]

I'm gradually working my way through this fascinating thread. Bournemouth West is an excellent choice of prototype and you really have made a fantastic job of it. I couldn't make it to Poole recently but did catch a quick glimpse at Swindon though unfortunately, as a regular demonstrator in one of the other halls I had very little time. My good friend John Greenwood contemplated doing BW at one point, even getting as far as building the pointwork but in the end opted for North Cornwall, centred on Wadebridge.

I'm slowly building the other end of the SDJR at Bath Queen Square in 2FS set in the 1920s. There are links to the threads on both lines in my signature below.

 

Jerry

[Roger Sunderland]

Jerry

Thank you so much for your kind comments on the layout. I have followed your Queens Square thread so this is praise indeed from someone who has created such magnificence - and in 2mm scale at that! You never know, we may get opposite ends, so to speak, at the same exhibition one day.

[Roger Sunderland]

BR cl5 460 73001 at Evercreech 11 12 1965.jpg

Many thanks for this Phil - you did though provide us with your fathers spotting logs previously, and very useful they were too.

[Roger Sunderland]

I`ve just been researching the S & D and thinking about doing Evercreech Jcn, I was looking at the Pines but RTR you need a Verstible Composite Open CO, Bachmann do the FO so you could use that, most of the eastern coaches look like Gresleys, you could use Thompsons BSKs and CKs

 

June - September 1960 RTR

 

BOURNEMOUTH - MANCHESTER (PINES EXPRESS)

TWThO

LMR stock

ERMK1BSK-LNERCK-MK1SK-MK1BSK-CK-MK1BSK-CO-12wheelRS-MK1SO-MK1SK-MK1CK-MK1BCK

MFO

MK1SK-MK1BSK-CK-(MK1BSK(FO))-CK-MK1BSK-CO-12wheelRS-MK1SO-MK1SK-MK1CK-MK1BCK

 

Bradford - Bournemouth

FO

ER stock

BSK-SK-CK-CK-SK-SK-SK-BSK-SK-BSK

 

Birkenhead - Bournemouth

WR Stock

MK1SK-MK1SK-MK1SK-MK1BSK-MK1SK-MK1SO-?RC-MK1FK-BSK-SK-SK

 

using the coach formations from the Train Marshalling lists you could do

 

Forthcoming Hornby 399 set SUMMER only

R4840

R4842

R4841

 

BOURNE - BIRM OR BOURNE - SHEFF

ER stock

MO

MK1SK-MK1BSK-CK-SK-CK-SK-BSK

BOURNE - BIRM

TWThO

ER stock

MK1BSK-CK-SK-SK-SK-CK-SK-BSK

DERBY - BOURNE

FO

LMR stock

BSK-SK-SK-CK-CK-SK-SK-BSK

 

Forthcoming Bachmann Bulleid coach set WINTER only

 

 

 

I was going to do a Saturday as there were a lot more passenger trains and I think locos like the West Countries would have been more common

 

My coach Formations

 

SO

BOURNEMOUTH - MANCHESTER

LMR

MK1SK-MK1BSK-CK-CK-MK1BSK-CO-RS-MK1SO-MK1SK-MK1SK-MK1CK-MK1BCK

BOURNEMOUTH - MANCHESTER

LMR

BSK-SK-SK-SK-CK-CK-SK-SK-SK-BSK

MANCHESTER - BOURNEMOUTH

LMR

*BSK-CK-SK-CK-BSK-SK-SK-SK-SK-BSK

Cleethorpes  - Exmouth

ER

SK-SK-BSK-CK-SK-SK-BSK-CK

Many thanks for this Dube - we are building a brilliant list of info. I'm confident we will now have the correct coach formations for S&D trains going forward.

[BMacdermott]

Hello everyone

 

Can I add a note of caution for Dube (and any other readers).

 

Whilst the official Carriage Working Notices (or Passenger Train Marshalling books) give some clue as to what was supposed to happen, they cannot be relied upon for total accuracy and you really need to check with what photos exist.

 

One time editor of the SDRT magazine (The Bulletin), Jonathan Edwards, penned an excellent article about the Exmouth-Cleethorpes train in the December 2015 issue of Backtrack. From photos examined between 1960 and 1962, the train varied from eight to 11 coaches - sometime a real 'motley collection' - and could be (amongst possible others):

1 All LNER stock

2 LNER with some Mk1s (and a Stanier from time to time)

3 All SR stock

4 SR with a Thompson leading

5 SR with some MK1s and a Gresley

6 All Stanier.

 

I know the Exmouth-Cleethorpes didn't run via Bournemouth West nor in the period depicted by the layout - but the same would apply for many rakes. The CWNs would often be supplemented with Special Traffic Notices and even daily amendments. All part of the fun of research!

 

Brian

Edited November 24, 2018 by BMacdermott

[TrevorP1]

Hello everyone

 

Can I add a note of caution for Dube (and any other readers).

 

Whilst the official Carriage Working Notices (or Passenger Train Marshalling books) give some clue as to what was supposed to happen, they cannot be relied upon for total accuracy and you really need to check with what photos exist.

 

One time editor of the SDRT magazine (The Bulletin), Jonathan Edwards, penned an excellent article about the Exmouth-Cleethorpes train in the December 2015 issue of Backtrack. From photos examined between 1960 and 1962, the train varied from eight to 11 coaches - sometime a real 'motley collection' - and could be (amongst possible others):

1 All LNER stock

2 LNER with some Mk1s (and a Stanier from time to time)

3 All SR stock

4 SR with a Thompson leading

5 SR with some MK1s and a Gresley

6 All Stanier.

 

I know the Exmouth-Cleethorpes didn't run via Bournemouth West nor in the period depicted by the layout - but the same would apply for many rakes. The CWNs would often be supplemented with Special Traffic Notices and even daily amendments. All part of the fun of research!

 

Brian

 

 

Absolutely agree. I've found exactly the same when researching for my project. In one case I had a consist from a published and reliable source with a contemporary photo showing something entirely different and then another photo taken a few days later different again. Of course the photo captions could be wrong....     

 

I guess photos come down to how conscientious the photographer was and with the S & D you have an exemplary source in Ivo Peters.

 

All part of the fun of research though!           

[BMacdermott]

Hello Trevor

 

Thanks for writing. It brings me nicely to something I've been meaning to post here...

 

If any of you have met Peter Smith or Mike Arlett, I'm sure you will have been impressed at their readiness to help researchers. So, you might wonder, why don't they write on threads such as this. There are a number of reasons but one that particularly affects Peter is that he was often challenged by some of lesser knowledge. A typical example would be: "But Peter, you couldn't possibly have been working that train as photographer x has a pic of you working train y on that day!" 

 

If you are dealing with a known and reliable source such as Peter, Mike or Ivo (or the good folk on the BRCS coaching stock group which you and I belong to), then you should be fine - otherwise, research should be treated as ABC.

 

Assume nothing. Believe nothing. Check everything.

 

That is not meant to sound vindictive or arrogant - just pragmatic.

 

Brian

Edited November 24, 2018 by BMacdermott

[Ian J.]

I find the biggest problem with the photographs that are published is not many have good views of a whole train, meaning some degree of interpretation can be required to conclude what coaches it was made up from.

[dube]

One formation I was looking at was a 10 coach all ExLMS yet the photo showed an 8 coach formation with a Hawkeswoth SK followed by a Collett SK, I thought the date of the photo might be wrong but the 9F was only there in 1960, I guess they used whatever they had to form the Saturday holiday trains

[BMacdermott]

Hello Dube

 

From the handful of people I have spoken to who were involved with carriage working (not just S&D), there was always a plan - but many spanners could be thrown in the works, ranging from point failures, defective vehicles, derailments and late running amongst others.

 

I can't lay hands on it at the moment, but I did conduct a taped interview with a Stan Cherrett who worked at the carriage sidings. It was recorded in the late 80s, but possibly wouldn't be much use as he worked in the sidings in the late 40s/early 50s.

 

If they haven't already done so, it might pay dividends for Roger and his team to put out some sort of appeal for sidings' staff via local radio, local newspapers, local railwaymen's clubs, facebook etc. In this 'inter-connected world', it would probably work. But bear in mind, anyone coming forward would probably be in their 80s now. I've lost count of how many ex-S&D staff I tracked, but I was doing the tracking over 30 years ago! Time moves on!

 

Of course, it would be fantastic if all Guards' Journals were available - they would give us formations and vehicle running numbers as well as loco and crew details. I have seen some from the S&D but - frustratingly - the records start in November of 1962.

 

Peter Smith knows much about how the sidings were worked - and will fill Roger in on that next year at the Show - but, sadly, he wasn't party to the actual stock details.

 

Brian

[Roger Sunderland]

Wonderful stuff and thanks to everybody for your contributions. A number of thoughts come to mind.

 

We are seeking to run a representative set of S&D workings on the layout, so my main aim is not to hear things like " that formation never ran over the S&D........... Etc etc" when we are showing the layout. It's clear from the contributions on this subject that, although it's not a case of anything goes, there was , clearly, a wide variation in the make up of trains due to things like - day of the week, time of year, special notices, failed vehicles - almost ad infinitum.

 

From our group's point of view, it would be nice to incorporate as much variety as possible in the coaching stock, without being unprototypical. You should have seen the gleam in the eyes of our GWR enthusiasts (zealots?) when Brian mentioned that Hawksworth and Collett stock made regular appearances on the BW/Bristol trains, as well as LMR stock - for me.

 

Finally, as previously mentioned, due to time constraints, at present, the stock we use, within reason, has to be RTR. Bearing this in mind how sad is it that Bachmann produce a reasonable model of Bullied coaches in N gauge - but not in 00!

 

Once again. Thank you all for your help.

[Chris Knight]

Interesting that Brian Mc.D mentions Stan Cherrett, a real character whom I met when I joined the Wessex Railfans Club sometime around 1955/6. Stan was a BR

guard at that time and lived close to Bournemouth Central in the Springbourne area. I remember many trips he organised, the first I went on was  to Swindon Works and

shed and I well recall him joshing me over my penchant for all things GWR. One trip was a weekend in the North West (via a Blackpool illuminations special) when we 

seemed to visit every shed in Lancashire as well as Gorton Works. He had a great way of keeping us oiks in some sort of order and was really a top bloke in every way.

[BMacdermott]

We are seeking to run a representative set of S&D workings on the layout, so my main aim is not to hear things like " that formation never ran over the S&D........... Etc etc" when we are showing the layout. It's clear from the contributions on this subject that, although it's not a case of anything goes, there was , clearly, a wide variation in the make up of trains due to things like - day of the week, time of year, special notices, failed vehicles - almost ad infinitum.

 

From our group's point of view, it would be nice to incorporate as much variety as possible in the coaching stock, without being unprototypical. You should have seen the gleam in the eyes of our GWR enthusiasts (zealots?) when Brian mentioned that Hawksworth and Collett stock made regular appearances on the BW/Bristol trains, as well as LMR stock - for me.

 

 

Hello Roger

 

They say: To fail to prepare is to prepare to fail. Your layout has been superbly 'prepared' and is a rock solid foundation for the more focussed formations that will come in time.

 

Brian

[Roger Sunderland]

Well our first big show at Peterborough has come and gone. Phwew! What a weekend, finally got home after 10 on the Sunday.

 

It's fair to say we had some running issues over the 2 days and we will be trying to sort all these out over the next couple of months, but, on the positive side, the reaction of the public was overwhelming. Onlookers were 3 deep for the whole of Saturday and again on Sunday. Even the last hour on Sunday there were 20-25 people watching. Sadly 2 of our crew of 7 were struck down by an evil bug which meant they probably didn't enjoy the weekend as much as they should have done but the show went on.

 

In terms of the presentation it's clear everybody loved the layout and the overall atmosphere it created. Also the automatic uncoupling, scenery and buildings and Trackwork all received very positive comments.

The Bullieds in "steam", however, created a steady stream of "wows" and incredulity as well as a stream of questions and stole the show - in a good way. Big thanks to Paul and Julie for all their work behind the scenes on that.

 

Now if we can just iron out those running bugs."..................................

[dpgibbons]

First 12 minutes of this video show the layout at the NFoRM: 

 

[Roger Sunderland]

First 12 minutes of this video show the layout at the NFoRM: 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37a6PYHMW94

Many many thanks for posting this. Very good filming and really gives a picture of the whole layout. Much appreciated.

[BMacdermott]

Hello Roger

 

Firstly, thanks to dpgibbons for the video in #323.

 

It showed a speed restriction sign of 10mph through the carriage washer. According to BR documents, the limit was 3mph. Sadly, I can't find any photos to show the restriction sign at present.

 

A small point, I grant you - but worth looking into for the sake of full accuracy.

 

Brian