Flying Scotsman back on the mainline - 2016

[Alister_G]

The BBC are reporting it here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-35251312

 

But I just love the following, quoted from their article:

 

"The engine, which was retired from service in 1963, has been restored for York's National Railway Museum (NRM) in a shed in Bury, Greater Manchester."

 

It just brings to mind some bloke with the Flying Scotsman in a shed at the bottom of his garden, nipping out in the evenings to do a bit more...

 

Shed Engineering at its best

 

Al.

[gwrrob]

Apparently FS was the first engine to reach 100 mph.Now we know that ain't true don't we...

[Bon Accord]

Apparently FS was the first engine to reach 100 mph.Now we know that ain't true don't we...

 

Quite, it was probably LEMBERG or ENTERPRISE which got there first.

[rab]

Apparently FS was the first engine to reach 100 mph.Now we know that ain't true don't we...

As we're in the pantomime season,

"Oh yes we do"

Quite appropriate really, the whole Scotsman restoration project

has been a bit of a pantomime.

Still I'm sure it will end with a "happy ever after".

Oh yes it will, oh no it won't.

Edited January 8, 2016 by rab

[Dunsignalling]

If future generations want steam they can build it. This generation has done way beyond what could have been expected in preserving and operating railways.

 

Re Scotsman in particular. If we knew then what we know now then perhaps it might have been an idea to build a replica and plinth the original. I'm glad they (we?) didn't. I don't care how many new bits she's got there is still the spirit of the original (like my 1971 MG).

 

Congratulations and thanks to all involved, and I look forward to seeing her again whatever livery, but will admit to a sneaking preference to what I believe will be the first when on BR.

 

Ed

I'm just hoping that all the bits (new and otherwise) will be combined in a coherent way that portrays the loco as it ran in service.

 

Whatever point in its career that turns out to be, it should carry an appropriate livery/number to match.

 

Despite the huge sums of money expended on keeping Flying Scotsman going (and often, not going) over the decades, for far too much of the time, it has carried a mishmash of fittings and liveries that produced an unsightly hybrid of late 1930s LNER and early 1960s BR appearance. 

 

One or the other, please.

 

J.

 

Edit: Just watching the test running on BBC News - looks and sounds mechanically wonderful (and BR spec.) but cosmetically unfinished so I still have hopes.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Dunsignalling

[Sir Hadyn]

That's why we've lowered the numberplate, changed the front handrail and lamp bracket so that apart from the corridor tender, you get 1962 Scotsman in the next month or so after running in and the full repaint.

[jacko]

There's an interesting programme on BBC iPlayer just now depicting the 40th anniversary non-stop London to Edinburgh run in 1968. Watched it last night after the BBC4 BR programme. Not a bad way to spend a couple of hours.  The Scotsman programme features interviews with Rev W Audry who manages to avoid mentioning Thomas when talking about his books.

[stewartingram]

Here we go again - is it authentic? Of course it is.

Built 1923, ran in revenue service for LNER

1948, LNER became part of BR

1963, withdrawn from revenue service, sold to Alan Pegler.

1963, a new career in preservation, too complex to detail here, but culminating in the NRM purchasing the loco and rebuilding it for further use on the mainline. Now starting running in for this, using the ELR.

 

from 1963-2004, the preservation period, these are some of the things that have happened:

 

reverted to single chimney, corridor tender, LNER livery.

2nd tender for extra water capacity.

ran abroad in USA and Australia

double chimney refitted, to give more efficient running

German smoke deflectors fitted because of drifting smoke

2nd tender removed

BR livery.

(and if you want to be pedantic, black wartime NE livery, at the latter stages of restoration, though never steamed as more work was found to be needed).

 

Now I contend that this is all authentic as it is all part of the loco's history. But not authentic as a genuine museum piece restoration as part of its normal service up to 1963.

 

4472 has a long and rich history, all part of its life. Under the maxim of "you can't please everyone all of the time", some will not be happy with whatever condition it is presented in.

Me, I'm glad to see the old girl back. I knew the A3's when they were in service and actually like the Germans best. But I've since seen more of Scotsman, after Pegler saved her, and apple green in preservation brings back many happy memories to me. I think if she was vinyl wrapped like the Santa 91 next Xmas, I wouldn't mind. History is still evolving, she is a working loco.

 

Stewart

[woodenhead]

I think you missed a bit where she got an A4 boiler and things went a little awry with all that extra steam.

 

It's certainly not a museum piece as per standard NRM policy and is probably more akin to Triggers broom but she is at least steaming and will attract headlines.

 

Lets hope no more washouts with the weather affect her booked railtours.

[Dunsignalling]

Here we go again - is it authentic? Of course it is.

Built 1923, ran in revenue service for LNER

1948, LNER became part of BR

1963, withdrawn from revenue service, sold to Alan Pegler.

1963, a new career in preservation, too complex to detail here, but culminating in the NRM purchasing the loco and rebuilding it for further use on the mainline. Now starting running in for this, using the ELR.

 

from 1963-2004, the preservation period, these are some of the things that have happened:

 

reverted to single chimney, corridor tender, LNER livery.

2nd tender for extra water capacity.

ran abroad in USA and Australia

double chimney refitted, to give more efficient running

German smoke deflectors fitted because of drifting smoke

2nd tender removed

BR livery.

(and if you want to be pedantic, black wartime NE livery, at the latter stages of restoration, though never steamed as more work was found to be needed).

 

Now I contend that this is all authentic as it is all part of the loco's history. But not authentic as a genuine museum piece restoration as part of its normal service up to 1963.

 

4472 has a long and rich history, all part of its life. Under the maxim of "you can't please everyone all of the time", some will not be happy with whatever condition it is presented in.

Me, I'm glad to see the old girl back. I knew the A3's when they were in service and actually like the Germans best. But I've since seen more of Scotsman, after Pegler saved her, and apple green in preservation brings back many happy memories to me. I think if she was vinyl wrapped like the Santa 91 next Xmas, I wouldn't mind. History is still evolving, she is a working loco.

 

Stewart

Just because previous owners went in for wholesale bodging, doesn't mean it should be restored like that, especially under NRM auspices.

 

It has looked like a ridiculous 'Bitza' for much of the time since it left BR ownership. About time we gave the old thing back a bit of dignity.

 

I've no objection to it being '4472' (apart from a personal aversion to that shade of green) but NOT while it has a double chimney and 'German' smoke deflectors.

 

That's about as "authentic" as painting 'Clan Line' in NSE stripes or a King in FGW 'Barbie'.

 

John

Edited January 8, 2016 by Dunsignalling

[Super D]

Flying Scotsman was the first loco authenticated to reach 100 mph. City of Truro is alleged to have reached tat speed but it was not authenticated.

[gordon s]

I must be one of the few who really like the german smoke deflectors.  I was a little confused seeing NE on the tender, black livery, 502 on the cabside with 60103 on the smoke box and german deflectors, but all has become clear thanks to Sir Hayden above.

 

BR green as she was in the 60's will be just great.

 

Lovely to see her again although I thought I heard a reporter calling 'her' 'him' today......

[ColinK]

I agree 4472 looks great with German smoke deflectors. But isn't it time it was updated and painted in BR blue with full yellow ends and a large double arrow on the tender?

[vitalspark]

Interesting to see they have given her a 50A shed plate for York.  Understandable, but raised something I had never thought about.  Were shed plates changed every time a loco moved sheds?

Yep I'm pretty sure they were..certainly locos reallocated in my youth always carried the new shedplate…usually 12A.

[asmay2002]

Flying Scotsman was the first loco authenticated to reach 100 mph. City of Truro is alleged to have reached tat speed but it was not authenticated.

 

Flying Scotsman was recorded by the official LNER recorder C J Allen as reaching 97.5mph not 100.  The trace on the Dynamometer car suggested a transitory peak of 100mph for a few seconds and that was the bit the PR people grabbed. In contrast City of Truro was recorded by an Independent recorder (i.e not a paid employee of a very publicity conscious company)  C Rous Martin at 102.3 over a quarter mile (not a few yards).   An unbiased observer would have difficulty deciding which of the two was more likely to be authentic.  It is certain that 2750 Papyrus exceed the 100mph in 1935.

Edited January 8, 2016 by asmay2002

[brianusa]

As a confirmed GW fan, all the attention lauded on FS is of little consequence.  I fail to see, in spite of its fame, why its any different to any other loco and especially why its had millions spent on it.  Sure, its an icon of sorts but as has been said herein, by now its a bit of an ASP loco far removed from its LNER or earlier beginnings.  The mags can't get enough of it, many recent issues have competing articles about it which means they are only repeating each others 'news'.   Each of the other big four had their own comparable locomotives which are probably the favourites of many others.  As for livery, possibly it should remain in its earliest form being the most authentic, then LNER and finally BR in ex LNE condition without all the hardware installed over the years.

 

Brian.

[Boris]

Scotsmen in action earlier today just outside Manchester.

 

 

And later during a watering stop.....

 

Edited January 8, 2016 by Boris

[Bon Accord]

Flying Scotsman was recorded by the official LNER recorder C J Allen as reaching 97.5mph not 100.  The trace on the Dynamometer car suggested a transitory peak of 100mph for a few seconds and that was the bit the PR people grabbed. In contrast City of Truro was recorded by an Independent recorder (i.e not a paid employee of a very publicity conscious company)  C Rous Martin at 102.3 over a quarter mile (not a few yards).   An unbiased observer would have difficulty deciding which of the two was more likely to be authentic.  It is certain that 2750 Papyrus exceed the 100mph in 1935.

 

An unbiased observed in Steam Railway several years ago cast doubt on both, but specifically the GWR effort. In a nutshell, Rous-Martin was working on his own, with two stopwatches, by the light of a paraffin lamp and as well as logging times was straining to see quarter mileposts as they whizzed by (at speed) in the dark. None of which is particularly conducive to accurate figures.

That's not to say 'Truro didn't go quite fast all the same.

[rockershovel]

I may have missed this, but how much actually remains of (1) the original loco (2) the loco as it left revenue service?

[RJS1977]

An unbiased observed in Steam Railway several years ago cast doubt on both, but specifically the GWR effort. In a nutshell, Rous-Martin was working on his own, with two stopwatches, by the light of a paraffin lamp and as well as logging times was straining to see quarter mileposts as they whizzed by (at speed) in the dark. None of which is particularly conducive to accurate figures.

That's not to say 'Truro didn't go quite fast all the same.

 

When Truro did her run,it was daytime - departure from Millbay was 09.23am. So Rous-Martin was NOT working by a paraffin lamp,trying to read mileposts in the dark!

 

By my own calculations,if Rous-Martin's timing of 80mph at the exit from Whiteball Tunnel was correct (and of course it is just as likely to be low as high), then provided Truro was providing enough power to overcome friction and wind resistance, gravity should have been enough to take her to over 100mph down the bank. Bear in mind that Rous-Marten's timings are average speeds and Truro was still accelerating until the brakes came on after the end of the last quarter mile.

 

So whilst 102.3mph may not be correct,there is no doubt in my mind that 100mph was achieved.

[Dunsignalling]

I may have missed this, but how much actually remains of (1) the original loco (2) the loco as it left revenue service?

The nameplates? Probably over-cynical.

 

However, preservation should be about giving modern-day audiences as close an impression as possible of how the artefact looked and performed when it formed part of daily life. The important thing is the correctness of the parts used and the coherent combination thereof, not their origins.

 

That is relatively straightforward (though not easy, or inexpensive) in the case of a particular locomotive but more challenging for an entire heritage railway which must conform to modern operating, safety and environmental regulations whilst, in most cases, having to cater for more passengers than it ever did when it provided an active public service. 

 

Whether Flying Scotsman should be finished as it was under LNER ownership in the 1930s or BR Eastern Region c1960 is a matter of personal preference. It seems my own is to be satisfied on this occasion but it should clearly be one or the other, not a hotchpotch of features from both eras and more.

 

John

Edited January 8, 2016 by Dunsignalling

[Sir Hadyn]

The nameplates?

 

Not them, no. Go and find the blog referred to earlier in this thread about originality, written by yours truly

[Sir Hadyn]

I think you missed a bit where she got an A4 boiler and things went a little awry with all that extra steam.

 

It's certainly not a museum piece as per standard NRM policy and is probably more akin to Triggers broom but she is at least steaming and will attract headlines.

 

Lets hope no more washouts with the weather affect her booked railtours.

We don't have a standard policy, each vehicle is taken on its own merits, and for the next few years at least, we felt it time to present it in BR form as close as we could - even the smoke deflectors have been reprofiled as per the drawings. Compare them now to how they were when she last ran.

[ColinK]

I'm hoping everything has been replaced, so its really a new loco that will be reliable and bring much pleasure to many for years to come.

[Bon Accord]

When Truro did her run,it was daytime - departure from Millbay was 09.23am. So Rous-Martin was NOT working by a paraffin lamp,trying to read mileposts in the dark!

 

By my own calculations,if Rous-Martin's timing of 80mph at the exit from Whiteball Tunnel was correct (and of course it is just as likely to be low as high), then provided Truro was providing enough power to overcome friction and wind resistance, gravity should have been enough to take her to over 100mph down the bank. Bear in mind that Rous-Marten's timings are average speeds and Truro was still accelerating until the brakes came on after the end of the last quarter mile.

 

So whilst 102.3mph may not be correct,there is no doubt in my mind that 100mph was achieved.

 

I'm obviously thinking of another timing run, however I was correct in that a lengthy article was published in SR a few years back during which the author concerned poured considerable cold water on claims surrounding 3440, 4472 and 4468. The former came out for considerable flack as the latter two runs at least involved a dynanometer car whose data could be interrogated and analysed in greater detail, together with supplementary manual timings. Without searching through the loft I'm sure it was around late 2012/early 2013 and was published as a precursor to the Mallard 75 celebrations.