Umber is the New Black

[Edwardian]

I'm not usually lazy about research, which I enjoy, and I rarely find myself struggling to identify a prototype I'd like to tackle in either 'straight' or fictionalised form.

 

In the case of the Brighton, however, I find my enthusiasm for the company far out strips my meagre knowledge and I look at the web of green lines stretching out to the south of London in my pre-grouping atlas with a growing sense of confusion.

 

In short, I would be grateful for any suggestions for a suitable basis for a model.

 

• There is no hurry to start; I have a little rustic terminus in abeyance as my first project.  When I have the opportunity, this is where I will start, BUT, I feel that the next project should take account of my small, but cherished, collection of Brighton locomotives.
• It could be a prototype, fictional or fictionalised location.
• I generally like a station; no Stoke Summit layouts for me, but I don't require it to be big or complicated; watching the trains go by is probably more important than lots of shunting.  A through station would seem to fit the bill.
• I would like to keep size, cost and complexity to a minimum, but I would like the trains to get a decent run through the scenery.

The rationale is to accommodate the following on a single layout:

• Bachmann E4 in umber, which I believe is suitable from circa 1912
• Terrier, also in umber.  I've always fancied running a Rooter with a umber and white balloon trailer
• OO Works I3, also in umber
• Kit-built K Class in photographic grey, circa 1913

Of course, it would also need to welcome a Bachmann Atlantic should one appear in umber.  Clearly some mainline running is needed to accommodate the I3 and the Atlantic.  To complicate matters, an excuse to run the Bachmann SECR C class (in the simplified lining), would be welcome.

 

So, before membership of the Brighton Circle, before Google trawls and poring over books and maps, before visits to various bits of the line, I need to focus on a few possibilities; arrive at a short-list, if you will.

 

All suggestions welcome. 

Edited February 2, 2016 by Edwardian

[mikeandnel]

Hello Edwardian

Can you advise what scale you are modelling in and how much room you have to play with. Can then probably have some suggestions

Michael dJS

[burgundy]

Edwardian

Single track, double or quadruple? Urban or rural?

Overlap with the SECR probably puts you on the Kent/Sussex border (Hastings or Tunbridge Wells), on the main line down towards Redhill or somewhere near London Bridge (but be careful as you might need to incorporate some overhead electric). There are lots of possibilities, depending on the space available.

I would strongly recommend membership of the Brighton Circle and you can always dip into LB&SCR Modellers' Digest.

Best wishes

Eric 

[JimF51]

Sir, afraid I can't help much with any information you would need, as I am still struggling with much the same dilemma.

 

One suggestion, however. Join the Circle sooner, rather than later. They have a very active Yahoo group, which is members only.

 

Unlike many Yahoo groups, it has been more active in the past 3 years, than in it's early days.

 

Lots of knowledgeable folks, both for prototype and modelling information.

 

Jim Flynn

[Edwardian]

Thanks all. 

 

As pressed-for-time a novice, it's going to be 4mm OO, but probably with SMP or C&L flexi-track.

 

Space - not known. I expect to have my house tenanted and my kinds living in a caravan if the bl**dy purchaser doesn't come good, so I can't really answer that!

 

I omitted to mention urban or rural deliberately, because I'm flexible in this instance.  Normally I am of a bucolic frame of mind, but, perhaps because I used to commute over-ground from South West London, I don't really mind in the case of the Brighton.  Something about those yellow brick arches and terraces, cuttings and villas.  Perhaps, in some John Borman, Hope and Glory, sort of way, a part of me likes the thought of all these Edwardian suburbs and dormitory towns and villages being blow up by Martians, although that's probably more South Western territory.

 

Redhill has crossed my mind as a possible place to see both Brighton mainline traffic and something of the South Eastern. 

 

I will aim to join the circle sooner rather than later.

[LooseHead]

Slightly OT, but I hope you'll forgive me - if I were looking to model a LBSC location (which currently I'm not, because despite having lived for some time on Brighton territory my commitment to another, somewhat larger, pre-Grouping company leaves little scope for meddling in the affairs of others) I would find it extremely hard to resist the charms of Kemp Town. Not only is it a perfect encapsulation of an urban branch terminus, with all the usual facilities both passenger and goods that you would normally expect of a bucolic rural location, yet incongruously set in the midst of a townscape, but it genuinely features that hoary old model deus ex machina of an approach through a tunnel. Its potential drawback is that modelling the fully developed post-1873 layout really requires the unusual 4-way turnout which sat at the throat just outside the tunnel mouth; but as an addicted builder of complex trackwork (usually featuring a mixture of at least 2 gauges, broad and/or narrow), I actually find that an additional attraction. If nothing else I commend its history as a fascinating by-product of the mighty Brighton's rivalry with its eastern neighbour the London Chatham and Dover.

[Edwardian]

For once I may have to consider a fictional location, but as yet don't feel confident enough in my knowledge of the Brighton to do so convincingly.

 

A fictional location does have the advantage of requiring only suitable types of motive power and suitable coach formations, without having to worry about shed allocations and which sets ran where.  It is, I suppose, a layout project to fit bits and bobs of stuff I have, whereas, usually, a plan of mine would involve identifying a place and time to model and then researching what ran there and then.  

 

Kemp Town was a fascinating suggestion, thank you, Loosehead. I enjoyed looking it up this morning on the Disused Stations sites (some pics from the site below).

 

A BLT is not, of course, going to justify an I3 and a rake of Pullmans, and Kemp Town, essentially a failed venture by the period to be modelled, would involve extensive goods provision and relatively little passenger traffic.  I'd have to fiddle with couplings and shunting rather than watch the expresses rolling by.

 

As a small terminus station building in the Brighton style, it would make a wonderful subject for a model.

 

The tunnel and the white cliffs just make remind me of how much I'd like to model Dover Town and Admiralty Pier on the South Eastern!

[Edwardian]

Earlswood?

 

A lovely classically inspired red-brick station building in a sort of Queen Anne revival style, though it looks to me as it might date from the 1906 period, when I believe the line was quadrupled.  This would get me the mainline traffic I want to see rush past.  Could I squeeze in the SECR departing to the north?  It just seems much smaller and simpler than Redhill.

 

If I forego the South Eastern, how about Hassocks?

 

The 1881 station was by Thomas Myres, so in that wonderful cottage style of the Bluebell stations. A pretty through station. Pictured below. The north portal of Clayton tunnel would make for one hell of a scenic break. 

 

Fairly extensive sidings, though.  A fictionalised version could cut them down.  Any thoughts or suggestions welcome.

Edited October 25, 2015 by Edwardian

[Andy Hayter]

If you are not bothered about a real situation, one of the scenarios I played with (but eventually discarded due to lack of space) was  a request from the Admiralty to the SECR to provide a direct connection from Chatham to Portsmouth.    Said line would then cross (quite possibly with a joint station) the main LBSCR line to Brighton.   

[Edwardian]

Thanks, Andy. That does sound like a worthwhile scenario to explore and I may return to it.

 

I try to find prototype locations, where I can, for real railway companies.  Freelance railway companies are a different matter...

 

Currently, I am favouring Hassocks, but really need a scale track plan and/or large-scale map, circa 1913. 

 

The Myres buildings are no longer extant, so I thought I could take the dimensions from the ABM Railcraft kit of the Myres-type station building, but I notice this company is not trading at present, due to ill-health; I wish the proprietor a speedy and full recovery.

 

The Goods Shed looks like what appears to be a fairly standard (and attractive) company design. This is extant, I believe.

 

I notice that both Gladstone and the C2X 0-6-0 goods are in the 2015 wish-list poll.  I suspect that the post-Great War rebuilds with the 2 domes will be the most likely version should the class ever be produced RTR, but, aside from the extra dome, I wonder how easily a, presumably Grouping-Era, model of the C2X could be backdated to circa 1913.

 

Speaking of 1913, I note that the K Class is also on the wish-list.  Surely the handsomest mogul ever built:

 

[BG John]

Currently, I am favouring Hassocks, but really need a scale track plan and/or large-scale map, circa 1913.

Like this one? http://maps.nls.uk/view/103670803

[Edwardian]

Well, that gives me the station and much of the yard, thanks very much, John!

 

Is there an easy way to scale from an old map to 4mm:1 foot?

[BG John]

You should be able to import it into Templot or SCARM and scale it up to produce a track plan. It probably works with other layout design software too.

[Edwardian]

So, "no", there is not an easy way!

 

Life is too short for TEMPLOT, surely? Never heard of "SCARM", is it contagious?

 

I use PAD (Pencil Aided Design)

[BG John]

If you're using Peco track (or most of the other manufactured options), SCARM is quite easy to use. If you need to build your own track, Templot is worth the effort to learn, and you can apparently do clever things like bending maps, if you need to put a straight prototype station on a curve (or a tighter than prototype curve).

 

This is one I did in SCARM, using a model track plan rather than a map, but it works the same:

 

Otherwise, you can probably print it out on multiple sheets of paper from a photo editing program, which is what you'll have to do eventually with the layout design software anyway.

 

 

[JohnR]

How about stretching reality a little bit and building a model of this?

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/c/central_croydon/

[Nick Holliday]

Hassocks seems to be a rather sprawling station. One location I have always liked the look of is Burgess Hill. I think the polychromatic brick station building is still there, conveniently on an over bridge for modelling purposes. It is some time since I last was there, but the goods shed and several other buildings were around then.

You might be interested in the scenario I have been developing for my own layout, unfortunately very much in the future, so I am happy to share the idea.

In 1853 the railway contractor Thomas Brassey built a new line from Godalming, south of Guildford, to Havant, to reach Portsmouth. Neither the LBSCR or the LSWR were originally prepared to get involved, but the SECR forced the pace, and the LSWR bought it in 1858 and the famous Battle of Havant ensued. But I imagine that the LBSCR had bought the line, the Portsmouth Direct, and then there would have been the battle of Godalming instead. Parliament would have made the warring companies make certain concessions, so that the LBSC would be able to get to Guildford, and if we allow the LSWR to retain their line to Godalming, as a terminus, that gives rise to some interesting situations, as the track would, theoretically belong to the LSWR, and the LBSCR would only have running rights.

In this situation the south eastern leg of the Shalford triangle that was constructed as an earthwork, but never had track laid, could be brought into play, with the SER being able to run trains towards Portsmouth, over the new line.

The construction of the Horsham to Guildford line in 1865 would then prompt the construction of a Brighton junction station at Peasmarsh, which could then receive services off the SER and have the LSWR Godalming services running through, perhaps non-stop, as the old Epsom station.

This altered situation would probably mean that the Horsham to Petworth line of 1859 would have eventually been extended to Petersfield instead of stopping at Midhurst around 1866, giving an interesting network for later motor trains between Guildford and Horsham by various routes.

On the north side I think the Brighton would have co-operated with the LSWR and the joint Epsom to Leatherhead line of 1867 would have been extended later, perhaps 1885, to meet the new LSWR line from Surbiton to Guildford. This might finally, with suitable running powers, give the Brighton an alternative through route between London and Portsmouth bringing in to play proper express trains with Pullmans or even the Royal Train.

Sorry to ramble, but this would give the opportunity to run all three Southern main line companies on the same tracks, without bending reality more than the average Doctor Who script.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Nick Holliday

[phil-b259]

The SECR and LBSCR had joint running powers from London Bridge to Redhill, Bo-peep Junction to Hastings, Woodside (via Selsdon and Oxted) to  [the curve linking the Redhill - Tonbridge line to the Oxted - East Grinstead line]. They ran alongside each other on non - connected tracks between Clapham High Street - Peckham Rye, wile a number of the connecting chords in the Clapham junction area were jointly owned. The LBSCR also had running powers into the SECR station in Tunbridge Wells - but such was the rivalry, regular trains between the LBSCR West station and the SECR didn't happen until grouping when both became part of the SR.

[Nearholmer]

Purley, SECR, loco shed, with the Brighton line, at a slightly higher level, as a moving backdrop? http://maps.nls.uk/view/103315207

 

Isn't someone going to make an H tank in 00 soon? I think lots of them lived at Purley, and the branches probably had C class locos for goods trains. The loco shed was still there last time I looked, having been the BR(S) document archive for donkey's years.

 

Or, Smitham station, also with the Brighton Line. As a backdrop.

 

St Leonard's Warrior Square station, with a very tiny model of Rev Peter Denny, who, I'm pretty sure, spent his childhood living in a villa overlooking the station.

 

Kevin

[Edwardian]

Some great suggestions to consider. Thanks.

 

Yes, I like Burgess Hill - the footbridge/road bridge arrangement rather like the old East Grinstead.  Look at the shot from the level crossing - that must be what Stroudley meant by "Improved Engine Green"!

 

 

[Nearholmer]

Two exceedingly atmospheric pictures!

 

I particularly like the washing.

 

The one showing the "Glowcomotive" (B****y Martians! Forever mucking about with that death-ray thing of their's! It's all down to that bloke from Woking, if you ask me. If he 'adn't a started poking his nose into things, we'd all be a lot better off!) shows the line from Lewes, approaching Keymer Junction, with the chimney of Maidenhead (latterly Keymer) Brick and Tile In the left background, and the houses in Nye Road on the left. The brick and tile works had quite an extensive standard gauge internal system, but I'm not sure if that had any locos; it also had a narrow gauge system, which began as cable-hauled, then I think was horse-worked, but latterly had locomotives [Yep, both 24" and 18" gauge, internal combustion engined, and only from the 1930s onwards. The IRS book says that the works was opened in 1875, and rebuilt after a fire in 1883.]

 

[edit: I presume that the building adjacent the train, on the down side, is Keymer Junction station, which closed in 1883, but would welcome confirmation.]

 

It would require either a lot of compression, or a hooge layout, to get both into one scene.

 

Kevin

Edited October 26, 2015 by Nearholmer

[Edwardian]

Oh, I don't know, with a bit of judicious compression:

[Edwardian]

And a very large room.

 

Here is the sprawling Hassocks (you get a gasworks and a tramway thrown in!), and Clayton Tunnel just too close to be left out:

[Nearholmer]

Hmmm, I can see this turning into the entire Brighton Line!

 

The tramway at Hassocks served sand pits. A colleague of mine is mildly obsessed by it, because it ran through what is now the end of his garden.

 

What happened to the SECR angle?

 

K

[Edwardian]

Nearholmer - It's a dead straight line with two natural scenic breaks; Clayton Tunnel and the bridge at Burgess Hill Station, so, quite a lot of the Brighton Line, yes!

 

The SECR angle left at Redhill!  I think it is my wish to run an I3 and an Atlantic on named trains that is getting in the way of anything except the main line to Brighton!

 

I haven't had time to examine some of the other suggestions, but I hope to soon.

 

Thanks