Umber is the New Black

[Nearholmer]

Apologies; should have thought first.

 

A genuine LBSCR motor train halt had no shelter when first built (they spent all the money on signs, of which there always seem to have been many and varied), so you might want to pick one like Nutbourne, which had a per existing, and picturesque, crossing cottage. http://www.chidhamandhambrook.info/everyday/Your_village/History/Nutbourne_Halt.htm

 

ChrisN - I'm not convinced about this "Normans Bay has nothing to do with the Normans" line. I'm pretty sure It was an invented name, designed by a publicity hack to conjure up images of ....... marauders from Bayeux. Even the village website seems confused about punctuation, and seems to think that the place was founded post-WW2, which is probably correct in terms of permanent houses. In the 60s, when we used to go there in Uncle Wilf's Dormobile bus, it was very much frontier land. I must go and have a look what it is like now, when next I visit my brother.

 

K

Edited January 23, 2016 by Nearholmer

[Edwardian]

Kevin, no apologies necessary, on the contrary, I am grateful to you and Northroader for the splendid idea of modelling the poster.  Just no caravans, OK?!?

 

Now, my almost total ignorance concerning the South Coast and Sussex must be borne in mind here, but I would guess that the castle in the poster is based upon Pevensey, in which case the proximity of the castle to the sea, in modern times at least, is down to artistic licence. EDIT: As is the sympathetic curve!

 

Not to worry, due to practical considerations, this would be a fictionalised layout, using the poster, not the prototype as the prototype.

 

I find that Pevensey & Westham was a lovely little station, though in Westham, not Pevensey.  A more practical choice is the Pevensey Bay halt, which was not dissimilar from Norman's Bay, which, incidentally, in Kevin's picture, had a wooden platform crying out to be modelled.

 

So, this brings me back to the railmotor service.  I associate these with the mid-Edwardian period onward and a number of halts were built by various railway companies to take advantage of their introduction.  I am most familiar with the Great Western's introduction of numerous Halts, indeed, the form or architecture most associated with these, the famous corrugated pagoda, was introduced from 1907.  Did the Brighton do likewise, and open new halts circa 1905-6, for its coastal railmotor services? l note that neither Pevensey Bay nor Norman's Bay are featured in the 1904 RCH atlas.

 

Included below are pictures of Pevensey Bay, then and now, and a 'then' of Norman's Bay for comparison.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Edwardian

[Edwardian]

Kevin, I was evidently posting whilst you were editing.  That High Rocks Halt is perfect - one could even model "Outraged of .." as a passenger, though, from the photograph, this halt would best suit the modern fashion for layout depopulation.

 

Staggered platforms in a cutting on a curve dissected by an road overbridge is a superb basis for a model.   Scenic breaks are more manageable with a bridge, something I believe Northroader had included in original suggestion.

 

According to the Disused Stations website, from whose site I reproduce the pictures below, High Rocks Halt opened 1 June 1907.

 

The coastal stretch depicted in the poster, and found around Pevensey, is flat, with level crossings, so how one would combine the geography I am not sure.

 

Incidentally, though it matters not on a fictional line, the Disused Stations site suggests that Tunbridge - Groombridge "Motor Train" was a tank engine and single coach, something like a Terrier and balloon trailer, I would imagine.  One could have that set plus a railcar on a fictional set up.

[Oldddudders]

I am fairly certain that when we did the asset listing walkthrough for the closure of Grove Junction to Birchden Junction in early 1985, we stopped at the High Rocks Hotel for refreshment.

[Nearholmer]

LBSCR did indeed go "motor train mad" c1905, and although I would need to check the exact batting order, I think it went:

 

- steam rail motors (the usual disadvantages)

 

- petrol [edited] rail cars (quickly found too small and fragile, and passed on to the electrification department as OHL erection/maintenance vehicles)

 

- various breeds of coaches, propelled by various locos. The archetypal coach was the "balloon trailer", but there were low-roofed 2 car sets, with the interior design based on the layout of the OHL electric cars. They first tried Terriers converted to 2-4-0T, by omitting the front section of the coupling rods, then Terriers, but they were a bit small once the services got popular and two coaches became common, and D tanks were the standard for many years. I think that E2 were originally meant to be motor train locos, and some were painted passenger colours, but they were better for trip goods, and the bunkers were too small for a full day rambling round the countryside.

 

- the motor car/train halts were built in a rash, to a standard recipe, all timber, no shelter.

 

- some of the rosters/diagrams for motor trains were very strange, not like the GWR "shuffle up and down a branch line". Away from the coas, they provided "fill in" services to meet special needs, scholars' trains, shopping trains, connections into other trains, and so forth. So a set would follow a very convoluted path, over a wide area, dictated by local needs.

 

As a dioramic layout, High Rocks has a lot going for it (and, it has recently been resurrected), but no castle, as such. The rocks are are few hundred yards down the lane, and are a quite impressive load of sandstone bluffs, in a wood, and, IIRC, they were used as a fortress in the late iron age. There is a good variety of prototypes to pick from, though, and I like "Bungalow Town Halt", as a name. It is now Shoreham Airport station. There were even LBSCR/LSWR joint and LBSCR/SECR joint motor train operations on the East Southsea and Woodside[edited to correct] Lines, with operator alternating on an annual basis, I think, and if you modelled East Southsea, you could have the local doctor, one Arthur Conan-Doyle, waiting on the platform.

 

Anyway, all this retro-trivia is good relief from a stinking cold/flu which has me confined to barracks, rather than taking son to play football, today.

 

K

Edited January 25, 2016 by Nearholmer

[Edwardian]

Thanks, Kevin, and get well soon.  Don't soldier on. Give in completely, take drugs and take to your bed; the only way to rid yourself of lurgy quickly.

 

In the meantime, I will investigate Nutbourne, which might make for a good halt on the level in a coastal setting.

[Nearholmer]

As a random side thought, Conan-Doyle almost certainly visited High Rocks, because once he moved to Crowborough, he became friends with the owner of Groombridge Place, very nearby.

 

More likely motored over though, rather than used the train, probably chauffeured by my father's Uncle James, who used his Indian Army pay-off to establish a grocery shop, and buy a delivery van, becoming one of the first locals familiar with "motors", and frequently driving Sir Arthur, who see household bought provisions from him.

 

In the very unlikely event that you want a motor car, famous author, and chauffeur to pose on the overbridge, I have photos somewhere.

 

K

[Edwardian]

Oh yes, but I would love that, I am guessing post WW1, however

[Caley Jim]

Anyway, all this retro-trivia is good relief from a stinking cold/flu which has me confined to barracks, rather than taking son to play football, today.

 

 

Treatment for flu :-

 

Go to bed with a candle, a glass and bottle of a good Malt

Light candle and place on table at foot of bed

Drink whisky until you can see three candles

(Get someone else to blow out candle(s))

 

Does nothing for the flu, but you feel a h**l of a lot better!!

 

Jim

[BG John]

I'm starting to think that my planned Robertsbridge & Pevensey Railway layout could meet the Brighton along the coast near one of these halts, rather than modelling a station inland. Then I could buy another Dapol Terrier and convert it to a 2-4-0T. The colour would be a bit of a contrast to my blue ones. No I mustn't. I have a plan and must stick to it. I have a plan and must................................

[Nearholmer]

Edwardian

 

I'm struggling with dates (no, not that box of Medjool left over from Christmas): Sir Arthur moved to Crowborough in 1907, when he re-married, but when Uncle James set up shop, I can't be sure. We have a photo of him outside his shop in the early 30s, but the place is clearly anything but new at that date, and I would guess that he is c45-50 years old.

 

Anyway, here is the latter as a [edit, what I thought was Lance Corporal stripe on his sleeve is apparently a "good conduct" stripe, so goodness knows what his rank was], and the uniform looks Pre-WW1 to me. It also looks British Army, so probably posted to India, rather than in the Indian Army. Too fuzzy to identify unit insignia, but the cross on his sleeve is a musketry badge.

 

[ just checked, b1891, so my guess is c20 years old and c1910 for this photo]

 

K

Edited January 23, 2016 by Nearholmer

[Northroader]

I think you can be too slavish to picking a definite place, and everything has to conform to there. Take the elements you like, and there are any number of examples on this page, and do a simple setting working all of those in, although you may have to strike a tricky balance with some of the items, and not to get too overcrowded.

Just to say, I don't go much on the tin shed approach when there are such good looking older styles around!

Edited January 23, 2016 by Northroader

[Edwardian]

Very smart, Kevin, and a cavalryman.  Thanks for Nutbourne.

 

Northroader, I take that on board.  As for tin sheds, as Kevin mentions, the LBSC motor rail halts were 'no sheds' to begin with, as with High Rocks and Nutbourne below.

 

High Rocks locus in quo from Google Earth.  A straight plank, set on the coast, but using Nutbourne with its crossing keeper's house as a model for the halt might be easier as a micro, with a short traverser each end?

 

 

[BG John]

Presumably this was a main line with big trains too, although I don't see why you couldn't just operate it at the times a railmotor was due. You could add a bit of variety with a few short trains, and light engines going to and from the shed they live in to the branch they operate. I think Terriers needed a good turn of speed to be able to do that. If you're having a double track, rather than a traverser at each end, why not a sprung point and a plain piece of track, so they automatically switch to the right line?

 

My OO layout is being built as a shunting puzzle and will also run diseasal railcars, so the fiddle yard only needs to be a foot long, but it's being built so I can add an external extension to it to run full length trains if I want to, and have the space available. You could do similar so you could run longer trains occasionally.

[Nearholmer]

"........ and a cavalryman."

 

Except that, by further delving, I've convinced myself that is actually his elder brother Frederick, who served in 11th Hussars. And, James seems to have enlisted or re-enlisted as some sort of reserve in 1916, giving his trade as "chauffer"...... Genealogy is more confusing than railway history!

 

Anyway, I promise to stop bogging down your search for motor train halts with this irrelevant stuff, right now.

 

K

[Northroader]

Just for the fun of it, I've knocked up a little diorama using your poster. It's on my new line, which is why there's no ballast and the platform is a bit rudimentary, also the printer decided to band the colours, on an A3 sheet, which gives you an idea of the size, I hope. You might have to change the thread to "new improved engine green is the new black", as the setting is about 30 years before yours! Then it's O gauge, which should please our mate with all that lovely tinplate. Hope you're well soon, sir!

[Nearholmer]

Dyke Junction Halt, latterly Aldington Halt, had a sort of micro station building, even in its wooden days, just visible on the left platform here

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/31890193@N08/12303902444

 

And, I should have thought of Lanston before. Very many photos exist, and it had lots of visual interest, and a hut.

 

 

 

K

Edited January 23, 2016 by Nearholmer

[BG John]

Is that photo before or after they fixed the wonky platform?

http://haylingbillyheritage.org/places/langstone/langston-station-with-terrier-approaching-circa-1900-1914-from-the-roger-nash-collection/

[Edwardian]

Northroader, excellent models and excellent use of back scene. 

 

Kevin, more wonderful prototypes to ponder, but please do feel free to post family/period information, it is all fascinating; Chris's layout thread is full of such stuff and it helps to understand the period.

 

The thought of a double track, like the coast routes and High Rocks appeals because I could run my other Brighton stuff, not that there's much of it, as non-stoppers in between the motor train and/or railcar.

 

The problem with this is I would either need the depth to loop back to a fiddleyard at the rear of a continuous circuit, or, I'd need the length for a yard at each end.

 

Hmm.

[corneliuslundie]

Re the steam railcars, the first two were joint with the LSWR, introduced 1903 and had the loco portions painted Drummond green and the carriage portions were umber (no 1) and LSWR salmon and brown (no 2). They soon had the original vertical boilers replaced by horizontal boilers. Apparently after about 1904 both carriage portions were probably in LSWR livery.

 

In 1905 two steam and two petrol electric railcars were introduced by the LBSCR on its own. The loco portions were painted to resemble panelling and the whole affair was umber and white like the carriage livery. The loco portion of no 2 was soon painted umber. The two petrol electric railcars were different and were painted umber and white at first but later all umber.

 

Auto trailers were introduced in 1905 and 1906. 

 

There are photos of a joint steam railcar, Brighton railcar no 1 and the two PE railcars.

 

Source: a forthcoming HMRS book on Brighton liveries - due out this Spring.

 

I'd better not give any more away or you won;'t buy it.

 

Jonathan

[Nearholmer]

Two layout names from the deep-ish past just entered my head "Bevet" and "Bevleys", both small LNWR essays, by IIRC David Lowery.

 

At least one of them was a "railcar and motor train" layout.

 

If you could find details of them, I have a strong feeling that they might inspire.

 

And, why not have a small scenic "core", mainly railcar focused, and use a stack of largest-radius set-track curves to create a circuit when you want to exercise the big engines?

 

K

 

Simon - don't mention Devil's Dyke ....... It was the only EM layout I ever built. Got as far as baseboards and track, all very carefully made, scale length etc, then I slowly lost interest in it, put it in the shed and forgot about it for ten years. A serious waste of work!

 

Anyway, here is a picture that poses as many questions as it answers

[BG John]

If there was a conductor rail I suppose it could be a bit risky. But where's the harm? People had common sense in those days, and the little brat would no doubt have got clear before the train arrived. Or maybe the parents were good Catholics, and had plenty more at home, so either wouldn't miss one, or were finding they needed to reduce the number for economic reasons!

[justin1985]

I've only just discovered this thread but really enjoyed catching up on it (other than the caravan/house saga - have endless sympathy on this - the English housing market is broken in many ways, but also in desperate need of reform in term of process).

 

Since moving to Croydon a few years ago I've been developing more and more of an interest in the Brighton line. The Dapol N gauge terrier has had me thinking of potential bucolic Wealden/downland layouts in 2mmFS. It's frustrating that despite doing what must be dozens of named terriers in Stroudley livery and now even KESR blue, they've resisted umber. Must resist distractions ...

 

Justin

[Oldddudders]

You might have to change the thread to "new improved engine green is the new black", as the setting is about 30 years before yours!

It would appear your setting is between October 1877 and May 1882.

 

Nice to have a few minutes sleuthing on a Sunday!

[Nearholmer]

Another side-alley .........

 

The LBSCR 1905 petrol railcars, built by Dick Kerr ....... I had always believed them to be petrol-electric, but I read something today which suggests that they had a mechanical transmission. This seems unlikely, given that DK were primarily electrical specialists, but can anyone confirm/deny?

 

The Locomotive Magazine said in 1905 that the LBSCR was inspired to buy them by the success of the type on the GNR (theirs went into service in 1903, I think), but DK representatives were thick on the ground in Hastings in 1903/04/05, because they built the Hastings and Bexhill tramways over that span, and it was in that very area that the railcars were put to work. I imagine them dripping good news from the GNR into LBSCR ears.

 

K