Umber is the New Black

[Edwardian]

Indeed, I have read it; it sowed the seeds of another project that I want to do, Wolferton around the turn of the Century. I would love a No.1 Class, complete with 4-wheel tender, and a string of GER 6-wheelers.  The only bogie stock being HRH's.  It could also be accommodated on the WNR!

 

If I recall the book correctly, my impression was that the West Norfolk extension was quite artificially done via a separate company, perhaps a consequence of how relatively prosperous the Hunstanton scheme had been. 

 

The local backer lived at Docking Hall, I plan to use some buildings from Docking on the WNR.

 

Must dig out the book and refresh my failing memory.

 

Like the Middie, I think the WNR must have its own wagon fleet; some relatively for working off its system, with some old dumb buffer stuff that never leaves the line!

Edited January 25, 2016 by Edwardian

[Nearholmer]

Dear Sir,

 

With construction of The West Norfolk Light Railways now in immediate prospect, we trust that you will look favourably upon representations in the matter of economical motive power, and give consideration to the not inconsiderable experience that we have established in this matter.

 

Given the need to look closely at the circumstances pertaining in each case, and our practice of fitting our designs as exactly as possible to the needs of each individual railway company, we feel it inappropriate to offer a vulgar pamphlet offering standard, or in other words, never precisely suitable, designs. However, we take the liberty of enclosing a photogravure card, depicting an example of our work, which we feel confident will be sufficient to convince you of the general standards of construction to which we aspire, and our attention to the particular needs of each of our clients - in this case "novelty and minimal expense" having been specified.

 

If you would be so kind as to provide particulars of The WNLR's gauge, length, and degree of impecunity, we should be delighted to forward outline proposals.

 

Yours,

 

W, J & C Denting-Whithers,

Locomotive, General and Agricultural Engineers, Railway Construction Consultants, Weddings, Bar Mitzvah and Funerals Catered For by Arrangement.

[ChrisN]

If you had asked me before the weekend, was I interested in petrol driven railcars I would have said 'no', but, as I have just realised, I said earlier, it is completely fascinating.   

 

As for the modelling.  I am glad that you have taken time out of the Web to do some modelling.  I limit my viewing to a select number of threads and when the evening comes I will model, and then, as I can multi-task, I will look at any updates between doing different bits.  I am also pleased that you were able to do some modelling knowing what has happened over the past few months.  Yes, the buildings do look very good.  The use of photographs is a very clever idea.  Mike Oxen on his blog uses it for coach sides and it is very effective.

 

Is it a standard gauge?  Coaches.  Leek and Manifold coaches were interesting, as were their engines, but they are narrow gauge and there are no kits for them.  How interesting do you want them to be?  4 wheel?  (Like the one I did from a modified Hornby Maintenance Coach.)  6 Wheel, German outline?  Wagons.  I would suggest Woodhams but they are fairly rare, although of 19th Century Southern designs, but I do not want anyone else chasing them on EBay.  ABS .do a LSWR dumb buffered wagon, I will have to go and look for its number.  My coal merchant bought one.

 

Enough of my rambling.  I look forward to seeing this and maybe will be able to find suggestions for rolling stock once I know more of what you want it to look like.

[Metropolitan H]

Thanks, Kevin, and, yes, I realise that there is flint-knapped construction in the South East, though I am not familiar with the vernacular architectural styles associated with it in that region.

 

Cyril Freezer once said, or so I read, that one should be able to identify the railway company, or, perhaps, the geographical setting, of a layout without any locomotives or stock present.  Well, in my case, as the locomotives and rolling stock will be odd, old, small and Victorian, in the ownership of a freelance company, their presence wouldn't be of much help.

 

I must rely on my attempts to capture the vernacular of a particular area.  If successful, there is a fair chance that some viewers will be able to identify the area in which my fictional village is set.  If I fail, I will have to tell you where it is supposed to be!

 

I suspect that the scene will need to be far nearer to completion for you to have a fair shot at guessing/working it out.  Let's put it this way, the Great Mr Downes of this parish used to produce whole hand-scribed Cotswold villages at places like Pecorama.  The point is, you always and instantly knew you were in the Cotswolds.  Well, the Cotswolds is a very recognisable region, but you get what I am driving at?   

 

So, to recap., the long row of cottage backs was my second model building (the first being a test run with a Scalescenes kit), and first scratch build/kit bash.  It was constructed between April and June last year.  In July, or so, I started on the group of buildings to the right.  Personal circumstances then placed it into abeyance.  Yesterday, a fresh start was made and I advanced the rearmost, 'L'-shaped structure from a basic shell.

 

This structure is approximately to HO or 1/87 scale; there is a bit of forced perspective going on.  Nothing too ambitious, as these are my first attempts and the composition still has time to go badly wrong. 

 

Anyway, please don't let this inter-regional working derail the fascinating discussion of Brighton railcars and stations, and Edwardiana in general ... I am learning a lot and enjoying it hugely.

Apologies chaps, I should have read on before trying to answer the question - b****r.

 

Looks a lot like North Norfolk to me? - Its the orange pantiles what do it. If not Norfolk it is somewhere further north on the East Coast, perhaps Holderness?

 

Regards

Chris H

Edited January 25, 2016 by Metropolitan H

[Edwardian]

To: Messrs Denting-Whithers

 

Sirs

 

The Board of the West Norfolk Railway proposes a trial of one of your machines, constructed to the Standard Gauge, for an extended period on suitable terms, viz, delivery (and subsequent removal) of the machine from the Line at no charge, supply of a suitably qualified driver/mechanic at no charge, and a full indemnity against damage to the Line, its stock, death or injury to staff or passengers and the disruption of Services.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

Col. F. G. Small-Flinthouses Rtd.

[Nick Holliday]

 

Is it a standard gauge?  Coaches.  Leek and Manifold coaches were interesting, as were their engines, but they are narrow gauge and there are no kits for them.  How interesting do you want them to be?  4 wheel?  (Like the one I did from a modified Hornby Maintenance Coach.)  6 Wheel, German outline?  Wagons.  I would suggest Woodhams but they are fairly rare, although of 19th Century Southern designs, but I do not want anyone else chasing them on EBay.  ABS .do a LSWR dumb buffered wagon, I will have to go and look for its number.  My coal merchant bought one.

Whilst the Woodham Wagon Works did produce an interesting variety of Victorian wagons and coaches, his virtual successor, 5&9 Models, has extended the range considerably, and the various examples can be seen on the 5&9 website.  He is currently operating at a low key level, with occasional forays on eBay, but if you approach him nicely, and cross his palm with abundant pieces of silver, he may be able to oblige by supplying some fascinating goodies, many of which are sufficiently arcane to be as acceptable in Norfolk as they are in Sussex.

[Nearholmer]

To: Col. Small-Flint-Outhouse,

 

Re: Economical Motive Power

 

In pursuance of the matter in discussion, Mr C Denting-Whithers has embarked upon a tour of The Southern Counties, to assess the suitability of a number of machines, which we understand to be available at short notice and on good terms.

 

Unfortunately, I have no report of details to forward at this juncture, Mr C being temporarily indisposed on account of losing a leg at Waterloo. "Legless in the station bar" were the exact words in his telegram, so it may be that he is, in fact, suffering from consumption. As soon as intelligence reaches me, and thus far I am completely devoid thereof, I will make it known to you.

 

Regarding terms:

 

- It is our invariable practice to ensure that any machine which we source on behalf of a customer is well chosen, is given a swift rub down with an oily rag, followed by three deep coats of looking at, before being put into service. No additional charge is made for these attentions.

 

- Should we consider it appropriate to build a machine for your purposes ourselves, all parts thereof will have been extensively tested prior to erection, by having been incorporated in baling machines, lifeboat-winches &c &c for upwards of four decades, thereby proving their worth in arduous circumstances; again, no additional charge is made for this testing.

 

- we would propose that Mr J Denting-Whithers should accompany any machine on trial, to act as mechanic and driver. This is slightly outside of his normal duties within our partnership, which are concerned largely with hunting, shooting, fishing, and the pursuit of farm girls. However, he has generously consented to assist in this way without pecuniary recompense, on the understanding that you will afford good stabling for both himself and his horse, and ensure that both have access to fresh water, a good supply of oats, and a large paddock in which to exercise.

 

- in order to satisfy your somewhat exacting wants in respect of indemnification, we would propose that, in the exceedingly unlikely event of substantial loss or damage to your business as a result of employing machinery sourced from ourselves, you should have title to our premises and tools (viz: one clap boarded shed, 4ft x 6ft, very few loose boards; one large biscuit-tin containing bent and rusty screwdrivers, and a file with no handle; twenty seven tobacco tins and nine old jam jars containing miscellaneous nuts, bolts and washers, none of the threads of which is compatible with each other; four spanners with splayed and damaged jaws; two very large sledge-hammers). Included in this would be our specially prepared Machinery Erection Ground, which we will clearly stake-out in advance, so that it should not be confused with the rest of the Common. In the circumstance that you have cause to claim upon our property, our correspondence address will, naturally, alter, to become: c/o The General Post Office, Pernambuco.

 

- the above to be dealt with on the basis of a genuine pre-estimate of loss/damage to be furnished in writing in triplicate by yourself not less than fourteen weeks prior to the event and to be subject to an upper limit of 3/4d in each £ of proven loss sustained or 9s 11d whichever is the lesser excepting in regard to matters appertaining to events occurring on days of the week the names of which contain the letter 'y' in which instances a limit of 1/4d in each £ of proven loss sustained up to a maximum of £1 shall apply any disputes shall be dealt with by the Independent Arbitrator appointed solely by ourselves and being a chap we went to school with and who is in the same Lodge as our Uncle Mortimer and whose guilty secret relating to ovine infatuation we are party to and of which we have Incontrovertible evidence in the form of Daguerrotype plates carefully secured.

 

I look forward to your further instructions in the matter,

 

W Denting-Whithers

[Edwardian]

To: W Dented-Witless, Esq

 

Sir,

 

We are grateful for the indication that, whenever intelligence should reach you, you will communicate that fact.  We hope, for your sake, that this may be sooner rather than later.

 

In the meantime, we are content to accede to your terms on the proviso that we have security over your shed and its contents, the value of which should more than suffice to compensate the Company for any loss of traffic on the Line.

 

Your humble & obed. servant,

 

Lt.Col. F. G. Flint-Knap Outhouse, Rtd.

[Edwardian]

Post scriptum:

 

We fear you are in error in identifying Norfolk as a "southern county".  Norfolk is an eastern county, some might fairly say the eastern county, blessed as it is with unrivalled beauty and variety of scene, both in its coastal and agricultural districts, not to mention its fine resorts and productive ports and crab fisheries, its many fine great houses, and its industrial prowess, not least in the form of all manner of agricultural machinery.  This is without mention of that great Metropolis, sadly not reached by our Modest Undertaking, the repository of history, culture, commerce and, latterly, of The Sale of the Century, presided over by that immortal Eminent Victorian, N. Parsons Esq, I speak of course of that Miracle of the East, we know simply as 'Norwich'.

[Nearholmer]

For Attn: Lt Col Flint-Knapped-Privy Retd

 

Sir,

 

Before proceeding to the prime subject of our correspondence, I trust that you will permit me to deal with a minor misunderstanding that seems to have entered between us. Mr C did not set out upon his tour of The Southern Counties by reason of some misapprehension as to the whereabouts of Norfolk, our entire family being well acquainted with the location of said County, and the habits of a multitude of its crab fishermen, through reports, containing perhaps more vivid and intimate detail than was absolutely necessary, received from Cousin Amelia during that fateful summer when she took a cottage at Overstrand.

 

On the contrary, Mr C's choice of locale in which to search was prompted by two important considerations: first, that, due to the location of our premises, it would afford him the largest radius for his explorations in return for each shilling expended with the Bighton and South Western Railway companies; and, second, that he views every penny so conserved as a penny that might be put to better work in procuring for himself refreshments along the way.

 

Mr C's method in these matters follows a set pattern, commencing with libations at Waterloo, and proceeding onwards by way of other locations recommended to him by those that he becomes acquainted with at each stop. And, Sir, I can report that upon this occasion it has bought him upon his quarry most expeditiously! He found it necessary to call at no more than seventeen refreshment points in order to reach Deptford, at which place he deployed the remaining two shillings of the travelling allowance which I had allocated to him (a certain reserve has to be exercised in this respect) as the deposit upon a locomotive which we are certain will be of lasting utility to your Light Railway, and which is, as I write, being consigned upon an open wagon of the Great Eastern company in the general direction of that capital of mustard, Norwich.

 

I will enter into only a brief description of the machine, which has lately undertaken two successful trials with tramway companies nearby, and was, until we secured it, under active consideration by the engineer of a small private railway to a golf course near to Rye in Sussex. It is equipped with an oil engine by Messrs Weymann of Guildford, being of their "Trusty" type, and has a driving mechanism contrived of integrating wheels, which is of such simplicity in operation that Mr C was, despite suffering the onset of tiredness due to the amount of liquid that he had ingested in your service, able to conduct the locomotive and two trailing cars along the street railway at its full permitted speed after not one moments introduction to the apparatus. As a footnote: he should perhaps have sought the owner's permission more explicitly before this essay.

 

With this, I believe our correspondence is at a fruitful conclusion. Mr J will arrive in Norfolk forthwith, and if the locomotive does not serve your purposes, I can say with some certainty that his horse will.

 

Yours etc. W Wentin-Dithers

 

Attached is a photograph. I trust that you will forgive any superficial resemblance to a shepherd's living van.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Nearholmer

[ThePurplePrimer]

Kevin, I was evidently posting whilst you were editing.  That High Rocks Halt is perfect - one could even model "Outraged of .." as a passenger, though, from the photograph, this halt would best suit the modern fashion for layout depopulation.

 

Staggered platforms in a cutting on a curve dissected by an road overbridge is a superb basis for a model.   Scenic breaks are more manageable with a bridge, something I believe Northroader had included in original suggestion.

 

According to the Disused Stations website, from whose site I reproduce the pictures below, High Rocks Halt opened 1 June 1907.

 

The coastal stretch depicted in the poster, and found around Pevensey, is flat, with level crossings, so how one would combine the geography I am not sure.

 

Incidentally, though it matters not on a fictional line, the Disused Stations site suggests that Tunbridge - Groombridge "Motor Train" was a tank engine and single coach, something like a Terrier and balloon trailer, I would imagine.  One could have that set plus a railcar on a fictional set up.

This is a really great thread and I hope the OP doesn't mind me asking a question here.

 

Could someone tell me a bit more about the Terrier and Balloon Trailer combination. Also what is the point of converting a Terrier to an 2-6-0 ?

[cornamuse]

very very nice work there, Mr Edwardian!

 

glad to see you back on with some rather excellent model making. Let me know if I can help out in any way - like for instance cutting windows using my computerised cutter... not suggesting yours aren't up to it - but my awesome wife bought me the machine as an aid to sanity!

 

thanks for the inspiration

 

Andy

[ChrisN]

Whilst the Woodham Wagon Works did produce an interesting variety of Victorian wagons and coaches, his virtual successor, 5&9 Models, has extended the range considerably, and the various examples can be seen on the 5&9 website.  He is currently operating at a low key level, with occasional forays on eBay, but if you approach him nicely, and cross his palm with abundant pieces of silver, he may be able to oblige by supplying some fascinating goodies, many of which are sufficiently arcane to be as acceptable in Norfolk as they are in Sussex.

 

Hi,

That is interesting to know.  My understanding is that when he produces stuff he sells it through his EBay shop.  He had some figures for sale, mid Victorian so too early for me, and I had an alert that he had put up a couple of wagons but they had gone before I could blink.

[Nearholmer]

PP

 

Without wishing to spend an hour squinting at the fine print of Bradley, I think that only two Terriers were converted to 2-4-0T, 81 and 82, and IIRC "the job was done properly", by using spare, smaller, wheels from engine bogies, rather than just taking the coupling rods off. But the result was as per the GER experience, and they were converted back.

 

Balloon Trailers were the LBSCR equivalent of the more famous GWR auto-coach,basic details of them and the 2-car motor train sets are in 'The carriage stock of the LB&SCR' by Newbury.

 

The "Terrier and Balloon" was the first standard motor train combination, having beaten both the steam rail motors and the petrol cars in reliability and economy trials. But, Terriers were superseded by the more powerful and faster 0-4-2 D tanks, particularly as the latter were released by electrification in the London area.

 

Kevin

 

(Nick - Newbury is one of the sources of the 'petrol electric' misunderstanding)

[Edwardian]

The Colonel is resting now.  He became very excited by the picture of the street tram. He was in a difficult frame of mind, annoying the other patients, but I managed to settle him with a night cap and a promise that tomorrow he could write to Donald Trump and ask for his autograph.

 

Kevin, I hope you are feeling better now.  You asked how impecunious the West Norfolk was.  Well, the answer is 'not particularly'.  I refer to it as a light railway really as a short hand for a small freelance independent concern, but, in fact, it pre-dates the Act and was built to 'mainline' standards.  Whereas most other little railway companies were absorbed by larger companies or amalgamated to form them by the late Nineteenth Century, this one stayed independent.

 

I, however, am brassic at present. So the choice of motive power and rolling stock is more reflective of my position than that of the West Norfolk!  So, I will not be ordering any new stock, but bashing and bodging all the oddments in my collection.  Incidentally, the advantage of card modelling is that it is as near to free as you can get.  When the financial situation improves, I may well be on the look out for those Victorian wagon kits, so thanks.

 

Andy, thanks for popping by.  You know how much of an inspiration Gainford Spa is for me.  And to think I drive through the 'real' Gainford every time I go to Darlington. Your offer re computer cutting is very much appreciated.  Top of my shopping list was a Silhouette cutter, but it will be some time before I am able to get one now.  My primary aim was to produce coach sides - Brighton and West Norfolk inter alia - but windows would be good too.  The models I am working on presently go towards the rear, but the full size buildings for the front probably warrant better windows.  PM if you like and let me know what you think.

 

More interesting stuff.  If the West Norfolk gets going, I might 'move' it to its own thread so as to allow all things Brighton to occasionally flourish here, without being choked by the weeds of my freelance bodgery.

 

Again, no thanks to me, this thread has proved to be a mine of information and inspiration for me.

[Nearholmer]

Edwardian

 

Thank you for enquiring. I achieved actual standing up and walking about this evening, so the answer is 'yes'. Back to reality soon!

 

That strange little internal-combustion loco would make an ideal fantasy-LR acquisition, because it chugged about Southwark and Croydon reasonably successfully during the mid-1890s, then disappeared without trace c1897. H F Stephens originally planned the Rye & Camber to be worked by an "oil motor", and is thought to have been inspired by this one. And,fairly detailed drawings are available. The back-story behind the loco is fascinating, but has nothing to do with umber, so I will leave it at that.

 

K

[ChrisN]

If you had a motor bogie from a diesel you could probably, he says having no idea how you would do it, be able to construct the tram from card, or perhaps plastic.  I unfortunately have too many things to try and do it at the moment, but I am sure actually you would want the challenge for yourself.

[Edwardian]

No such thing to hand.

 

I have, however, 2 or 3 locos that I can use as donor chassis to get some WNR motive power going.  Too busy fiddling with cottages at the moment, however.

 

When it comes to a Brighton Motor Train service, I will content myself with hacking off the extended smoke-box and, somehow, removing the sand-boxes on the chassis from an old Dapol Terrier.   

[Edwardian]

How about this?

 

A double track line 'somewhere' on the Sussex coast. 

 

Station with single siding, platform mounted signal box, a bit like Dyke Station, but with a less Colonel Stephens station building.  Probably a little wooden type.  There will be a second platform, of course. Perhaps a level crossing like Nutbourne.  No keeper's cottage because there is a box.

 

As the station is modest but pre-dates the Motor Train craze, what is the rationale?

 

In front of the station a beach, and, at right angles, a source of traffic in the form of a hotel.  Perhaps a mirror image of that at Pevensey Bay.

 

Motor Train or Railmotors provide the passenger service.  Most trains don't stop.  A single pick up goods a day visits.

 

 

[Nearholmer]

Ah, a flagrant attempt to sneak West Runton out of the Kingdom of the North Folk, and into that of the South Saxons!!

 

(OK, I know it is single track, and doesn't have a siding, but it could provide picturesque inspiration,mand it does serve a whopping great hotel)

 

Could it have been built as a station, when none was really needed, at the insistence of Lord Emsworth, in exchange for permitting the railway across his lands? The siding could then be a place for "prize cattle wagons", used to ferry The Empress of Blandings about in splendour (I don't think there were "prize sow wagons").

 

I think Lord Emsworth normally resides in Shropshire, but Emsworth is near Nutbourne, so perhaps this is his original family seat. Anyway, The Duke of Norfolk is sensible enough to live in Sussex, which proves ......... Well, it must prove something!

 

This back story could make an excuse for a ridiculously ornate station building too, on the assumption that Lord Emsworth insisted upon something that looked like a classical temple or gothic hermitage, when viewed across the park from his house.

 

Any help?

 

K

[Northroader]

Going in two different directions at once, first the Norfolk light railway: I have made up a sentinel engine using a Lima motor bogie, as suggested by chrisN, the superstructure being entirely in plastikard, so it was quite a simple job, good for a "first attempt", as would a "tram" engine, both suitable for what you're doing? The only point to be careful with is finding a bogie that's a steady slow runner, mine's a bit "stop..go". Then the Brighton halt, shouldn't you keep the initial scheme simple, and the double track oval, (for the ATLANTIC!) can come a bit later?

[Penlan]

Edwardian, I seem to recall a station like this at Littlehampton, near what was a Holiday Camp - we use to go there in the early 50's from London.  

But doing a rough Google, I can't see anything like it, a couple of wooden platforms, a small shelter, etc.,  I know somewhere, or though not where, there's a photo of me on the platform, around 1953/54.
Would it have been by Lyminster Rd ( a Halt?) - I see there is a real Lyminster Station, complete with an engine Shed see > http://thesussexmotivepowerdepots.yolasite.com/resources/lyminster%20shed.jpg.opt826x510o0%2C0s826x510.jpg

 

The whole site is worth a look http://thesussexmotivepowerdepots.yolasite.com/littlehampton.php

Edited January 27, 2016 by Penlan

[Nearholmer]

Penlan

You could be on to something here!

Lyminster is quite famous among Brighton devotees, because, although the station only lasted about twenty years, closing in the 1860s, the buildings survived in pretty much original condition for over a century (they seem to have been obliterated to make way for houses in the past c35 years,judging by aerial photos).

There was a motor train halt built on the site of the old station c1905, but that only lasted "five minutes" too.

And, linking to my fictional back-story, I think there is a kink in the railway there to avoid the estate of some long-forgotten Lord.

Closed station visible on signalling plan below, and the motor train halt is shown on c1910 25" map.http://maps.nls.uk/view/103673698#zoom=5&lat=4858&lon=2280&layers=BT

Photo lifted from SMPD, and reference from a field guide to industrial archaeology dated 1970.
K

PS: it took me a while to cotton-on to this, because I thought you were saying that you alighted from the train there. Which would have meant a holiday in the 1850s, rather than the 1950s. I'm assuming it just happened to be next to where you were staying. Or, is the venerable look of your avatar a clue to your immortality?

Edited February 1, 2016 by Andy Y
Image removed - copyrights

[Penlan]

I will have to look for the photo...

Of me on the platform, though as I'm in shorts, holding a bucket & spade,

it's perhaps not the most sought after image I'm seeking.

But, yes, we arrived and departed from this wooden platform in the early 1950's (nineteen fifties). 

Edited January 28, 2016 by Penlan

[Nearholmer]

Well ......... The original station closed in 1863 ......... And....... The motor train halt is recorded as having opened in 1907 closed in 1914.............. So, the halt must have re-opened at some date.

 

Will have to find my copy of the Oakwood book on Southern Railway Halts.

 

K

Edited January 28, 2016 by Nearholmer