BrushVeteran Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 The chord at Bicester is the new build that makes the route possible so it wouldn't be on anything but the lastest OS map. It's not even yet on Google Earth where the imagery is from 2009. According to National Rail enquiries Islip (ISP) is still just that. Oxford Parkway (OXP) is just to the east of the Oxford-Kidlington-Banbury Road adjoining the Water Eaton Park & Ride. Oxford Parkway is completely new and, thought there was a halt called Oxford Road somewhere round there at the time of the grouping, it had gone by 1931(my earliest OS map of the area) and I don't remember ever seeing any trace of it when growing up in that area. For anybody in any doubt as to the actual location of the new station, this is what was there before. You may recognise the landmark.....................a remnant from WW2! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 One of the more disappointing aspects of recent reopenings had been the inability to provide any kind of shelter on platforms. Possibly more significant in the borders, but I don't understand why station designers (or more likely bean counters) don't recognise the fact that it sometimes rains, and maybe passengers would prefer not to stand in it. But that's nit picking really, it's a good news story overall... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 30, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 30, 2015 One of the more disappointing aspects of recent reopenings had been the inability to provide any kind of shelter on platforms. Possibly more significant in the borders, but I don't understand why station designers (or more likely bean counters) don't recognise the fact that it sometimes rains, and maybe passengers would prefer not to stand in it. But that's nit picking really, it's a good news story overall... It presents other problems as well although not too bad with the train I caught from OXP in that people tend to concentrate where there is a bit of shelter (the footbridge) and hence there is a mass of people trying to get in via one door with no one at other doors. I noticed that Bicester Village was better provided with shelter (i.e it actually had shelter on both platforms) so some thought has been given to it and its likely use. Incidentally has anyone else noticed the multi-lingual on-train announcements approaching Bicester Village - one was English, one I think Cantonese and I'm not sure about the other but possibly Arabic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 I can see the value of Wycombe as a potential interchange between directions but the temporary arrangements there (and possibly the longer term permanent intentions?) make it a very difficult business - as happened on my trip yesterday enroute from Oxford Parkway to Banbury (which is not the route given by National Rail Inquiries!). Aston Rowant wouldn't have been a bad site for a new branch terminus as the station site is right next to the A40 and not far from the motorway junction at Lewknor although taking the railway any closer to Lewknor would have meant crossing under the M40 of course. I think the big problem with the Thame branch is the amount of building over it between Thame and Oxford but the idea of reopening to passenger trains from Oxford to Morris Cowley, or thereabouts still seems to be a very strong possibilit judging by that Oxford development link mentioned earlier in the thread. Less than you might think though it's probably now academic. I flew the length of it and the Watlington branch about fifteen years ago and was surprised at how unecumbered the trackbed was. I've just rechecked the route on Google Earth and not much seems to have changed since then From the end of track at Cowley there are the gardens of half a dozen houses in Horsepath but the line could easily be run behind them. The major encumbrance was and is the housing estate on the old station site in Wheatly which would require a diversion of about two kilometres. The only more recent build on the actual trackbed is a garage (Thame Ford) built about ten years ago to the west of Thame. I've always had a bit of a soft spot for the line since our school railway society got to ride up and down on it between Thame and Wheatley behind a Prairie that was giving members of the Oxford University Railway Society footplate experiences soon after the line closed in 1963. Thame station had a rather fine overall roof and the line from Thame to Princes Risborough remained open until 1990 to serve an oil depot in Thame; that stretch is now a Sustrans cycle route. Since Thame and Haddenham station is only two miles north of Thame and it's the only town of any size between Risborough and Oxford there would probably be little point in reopening it now that another connection to Oxford has been made. The route runs down the side of Oxford Services off the M40 so I assume the idea would have been to build a Park and Ride station there. The remaining line from Hinksey to Cowley runs along the edge of Littlemore and Blackbird Leys and is some way from the residential part of Cowley on the other side of the Oxford bypass. The only major traffic generator it passes close to is the Kassam Stadium (Oxford United F.C. and for a while, until they were relegated, the London Welsh Rugby Club) but that's not exactly Wembley so I'm not sure what purpose the truncated line would really serve for passengers. Traces of Aston Rowant station can still be found to the west of the A40 at the start of its climb to Stokenchurch. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted October 30, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 30, 2015 So you can't sign a contract with a ROSCO without getting the agreement of the previous user? Total rubbish. I'm not saying it's a good situation, but suggesting that a train moving somewhere else at the end of a contract is akin to theft is ludicrous. That is not what happened. The lease that Northern had on the 170s was coming to an end so the ROSCO asked Northern if they wished to extend it. Northern said "Yes we would love to but because our franchise is coming to an end we cannot agree to pay for a new lease without the express permission of the DfT". Meanwhile Chiltern had heard on the grapevine that the lease on the units was expiring and said to the ROSCO "We can sign up right now - no need to wait for months while the DfT prevaricates on the issue" so the ROSCO (which is a commercial entity and has to legally prioritise making a profit for its shareholders over DfT franchising policy / timetables) did a deal with Chiltern. If you want to blame someone, the root of the situation is the previous West Coast franchising debacle and the subsequent 2 year delay which put the tendering of many franchises back by a couple of years ir so. Had this not happened it is quite possible that Northern would have been able to renew the lease immediately and keep the stock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted October 30, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 30, 2015 Judging by the position of the yellow lines, they are expecting some high speed traffic through there! I don't understand why they can't locate it at one edge of the tactile paving. There seems to be no consistency across the network. Dave The stations on the branch are being built to the very latest standards which mandate a yellow line and also give specific directions as to where it should be put. Older stations do not have to comply with the same degree of vigour as those who drew up he regulations understand it is impractical / uneconomic to go round and ensure absolute compliance, particularly as the exact position of the yellow line may vary over the years as the standards are periodically revised. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted October 30, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 30, 2015 Less than you might think though I suspect it's probably now academic. I flew the length of it and the Watlington branch about fifteen years ago and was surprised at how unecumbered the trackbed was. I've just rechecked the route on Google Earth and not much seems to have changed since then From the end of track at Cowley there are the gardens of half a dozen houses in Horsepath but the line could easily be run behind them. The major encumbrance was and is the housing estate on the old station site in Wheatly which would require a diversion of about two kilometres. The only more recent build on the actual trackbed is a garage (Thame Ford) built about ten years ago to the west of Thame. I've always had a bit of a soft spot for the line since our school railway society got to ride up and down on it between Thame and Wheatley behind a Prairie that was giving members of the Oxford University Railway Society footplate experiences soon after the line closed in 1963. Thame station had a rather fine overall roof and the line from Thame to Princes Risborough remained open until 1990 to serve an oil depot in Thame; that stretch is now a Sustrans cycle route. Since Thame and Haddenham station is only two miles north of Thame and it's the only town of any size between Risborough and Oxford there would probably be little point in reopening it now that another connection to Oxford has been made. The route runs down the side of Oxford Services off the M40 so I assume the idea would have been to build a Park and Ride station there. The remaining line from Hinksey to Cowley runs along the edge of Littlemore and Blackbird Leys and is some way from the residential part of Cowley on the other side of the Oxford bypass. The only major traffic generator it passes close to is the Kassam Stadium (Oxford United F.C. and for a while, until they were relegated, the London Welsh Rugby Club) but that's not exactly Wembley so I'm not sure what purpose the truncated line would really serve for passengers. Traces of Aston Rowant station can still be found to the west of the A40 at the start of its climb to Stokenchurch. . A minor point Oxford services were actually partially built over the line (though I grant you its only various internal roads that are in the way slightly). Plus new bridges that would be needed over the busy A40 & M40 would be expensive and number of level crossings found on the branch when it was open could also be an issue as they could not be re-instated. The route via Bicester - although less direct has the benefits of:- Minimal brand new railway construction (basically the chord). Serves Bicester village shopping centre better Fits well with the East - West Railway proposals by maximising the use of the corridor Has lots of potential for growth with Bicester being selected for massive expansion with regards to housing in the decades to come (Wheatley isn't going to get much bigger than it currently is) The Parkway station site was well placed for access from areas to the west and north of Oxford plus it had lots of space to provide Parking without infringing on beauty spots or causing too many NIMBY issues. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Fat Controller, on 28 Oct 2015 - 10:41, said: The Parkway station is at Water Eaton, where the A34 crosses the railway; it's where the stone terminal was. Given the issues with bats in Wolvercot Tunnel, I presume the stone trains ceased a while back, or do the bats only object to multiple units? I'm surprised about Wovercote tunnel because, apart from stone trains, regular passenger trains from Oxford to Bicester Town were AFAIK using it until work started on the new route to Marylebone. I'm even more suprised now I've checked and found that the last Oxford-Bicester Town trains ran in February last year. Were the bats perchance employees of the North Oxford Nimbies !! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Simon Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 One of the more disappointing aspects of recent reopenings had been the inability to provide any kind of shelter on platforms. Possibly more significant in the borders, but I don't understand why station designers (or more likely bean counters) don't recognise the fact that it sometimes rains, and maybe passengers would prefer not to stand in it. But that's nit picking really, it's a good news story overall... Hi, Having been in a Value Management meeting earlier this year about a new station and service in the local area, the TOC representative that was sat next to me had a list of things that have to be considered / provided on new stations, one of these was shelter, they said that their costumes value the protection from the rain, so something must be provided. Whether this is something that Chiltern don't do, or it was decided that the large station building was enough shelter, I don't know, but I can assure you that it is thought about, at least my some TOC's Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 A minor point Oxford services were actually built over the line (though it would have been possible for a small diversion round the site to have been built. Plus new bridges that would be needed over the busy A40 & M40 would be expensive and number of level crossings found on the branch when it was open could also be an issue as they could not be re-instated. The route via Bicester - although less direct has the benefits of:- Minimal brand new railway construction (basically the chord). Serves Bicester village shopping centre better Fits well with the East - West Railway proposals by maximising the use of the corridor Has lots of potential for growth with Bicester being selected for massive expansion with regards to housing in the decades to come (Wheatley isn't going to get much bigger than it currently is) The Parkway station site was well placed for access from areas to the west and north of Oxford plus it had lots of space to provide Parking without infringing on beauty spots or causing too many NIMBY issues. The Oxford Services site includes the former route but I don't think there were any actual buildings on it but take a look in Google Earth and see what you think. You're quite right though about the greater logic of the current scheme. I think Chiltern must have been looking at all three, the chord at Bicester, the Thame branch and Aston Rowant but the best option is pretty obvious. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Hi, Having been in a Value Management meeting earlier this year about a new station and service in the local area, the TOC representative that was sat next to me had a list of things that have to be considered / provided on new stations, one of these was shelter, they said that their costumes value the protection from the rain, so something must be provided. Whether this is something that Chiltern don't do, or it was decided that the large station building was enough shelter, I don't know, but I can assure you that it is thought about, at least my some TOC's Simon Value management, what a lovely euphemism... I see it every morning at Fleet - large new building with canopy on the down platform (next to no passengers), nothing whatsoever on the up platform (packed). I'd love to know why that decision was taken. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
black and decker boy Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 From a published interview by Chiltern, they did consider the Thame branch but ruled it out as it offered less new traffic potential than the Bicester chord and would compound the existing capacity constraints within Oxford station and its congested southern approach. IIRC the costs of both options were broadly the same. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold unravelled Posted October 30, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 30, 2015 A few unconnected comments... The walk into Oxford city centre is being "improved". The area of Botley road around the station entrance is almost complete, with new paving and greenery, and Park End Street is also a work in progress. I hope that this section of road matches nicely with any realighnment of Botley road throgh the planned new bridge. While looking through Oxford station planning applications, I found plans for a proposed new South facing bay platform South of Botley road, on the East/ up side. I presume this is to do with the science park branch proposals. I've not investigated in detail, but I thought that Oxford Services was deliberately designed to be bounded to the South by the old embankment, and hasn't encroached on the trackbed. This is the impression Google earth gives, unless it has developed since mapping. A look over the bridge at Walton Well road yesterday showed little change in the last couple of months. The down Bicester line (ex up loop) still is unconnected at the Oxford end. Thanks Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clearwater Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 A few unconnected comments... The walk into Oxford city centre is being "improved". The area of Botley road around the station entrance is almost complete, with new paving and greenery, and Park End Street is also a work in progress. Dave http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/o/oxford_rewley_road/index.shtml (fascinating site btw) I'm not wholly sure the demolition of railway architecture is an improvement!!! . Also caused the loss of a great burger bar that was on the corner of the site. I forget its name now. I've not been to the main Oxford station for a couple of years however, the area has changed out of all recognition since the early 90s when the trip into town was, generously, a bit grotty. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
exet1095 Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 I'm not wholly sure the demolition of railway architecture is an improvement!!! . Also caused the loss of a great burger bar that was on the corner of the site. I forget its name now. I've not been to the main Oxford station for a couple of years however, the area has changed out of all recognition since the early 90s when the trip into town was, generously, a bit grotty. Not sure much has changed since the Saïd Business School has opened until now, with the changes afoot in the area outside now known as Frideswide Square and the change to the junction at the foot of George Street. I have used Oxford station pretty much every week since August 1995, when it was very different from how it was in my undergraduate days in the 1980s. Hythe Bridge Street was and is crummy, George Street rather better than it was - it used to be second line chain stores - Co-Op Furniture etc... The Army Surplus place, and Chinese restaurants. Now, it's chain diners and pubs, largely full of visitors to the city. The proposed southern bay platform is on the car park, designed to improve resilience and give a dedicated platform for Paddington - Oxford trains. The almost impossibility of driving to the car park, and its ruinous expence, mean that it is rather emptier than it was when it replaced its predecessor the site of Rewley Road station. Incidentally, I believe the stationmaster is wrong in his assessment of likely users of the new link to Marylebone. The coach service is cheap for commuter, but awful. Truly, and the ease of getting to Water Eaton compared to the city centre will encourage a modal shift to tail. It will also abstract traffic from Bicester North and Hanborough, but I am sure that will grow back up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clearwater Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 I only know the area after the redevelopment of Gloucester Green which was pre 1992. I understand was worse before then. I don't think it changed much from 92-96 though I'll admit my undergrad life didn't often take me past the station. Said opened after I'd left. I remember the Army surplus place - I got my lab coat there... Was never an attractive part of the city. agree on Hythe Bridge street, the high walls of Worcester and Gloucester Green make it an alley way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZiderHead Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 I'm not wholly sure the demolition of railway architecture is an improvement!!! . Also caused the loss of a great burger bar that was on the corner of the site. I forget its name now. Brett's Burgers. Second only to Peppers in Walton Street Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alibuchan Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 Well I have been and I have sampled it. The departure times seem ok but the journey time is an interesting work of optimistic fiction, I got the impression that Oxford's traffic has got worse than ever. However that time assumes that if you don't have a ticket which doesn't work the barriers the bloke responsible for them is actually there and hasn't gone walkabout like he had today. Regrettably today's experience suggests the station is either staffed by incompetents or they have very little idea of how to run a station. Thus the 12.17 was being advertised on the numerous screens to be departing at times which gradually stretched forwards from 12.24 to 12.32, a 165 unit rain in at about 12.24, all the people on the platform got in and made themselves comfortable - then a Driver came through to (very politely) turf us all out as 'this is a training train' (clearly a road learner judging by the number in the cab when it actually left). A 168 then arrived - also advertised as the 12.17 departure which it actually was - leaving 22 minutes late, made worse by what could best be described as a total lack of urgency on the part of the traincrew or the several Chiltern Trains people who had by then appeared on the platform. Just a few things to point out from your partly unfair comments. The bus times are being hampered by some roadworks on the route making traffic around Oxford even worse than it usually is and happening during half term was just a bit of bad planning. Not a Chiltern issue but we aren't happy about it. Part of the station staff job roles can see them away from the desk for multiple reasons, and there would be a valid reason for not being there not that he just fancied a walkabout. After only working for Chiltern since the end of August, there are going to be gaps in their knowledge and with only 2 having worked on the railway before (1 unfortunately being placed on long term sick before opening and the other with 6 months experience as a replacement taxi co-ordinator (his words) at Oxford) there is going to be a few issues whilst they build up that knowledge. Nobody knows everything with a maximum of 8 weeks in to a brand new job. The reason that the trains were all delayed was due to having a fire alarm activation on one of the 68's at one of the Ruislip stations and after what happen the previous week at High Wycome, fleet aren't taking any chances on it happening again, so they cancelled the train. It was found to be false alarm but was triggered by a different fault that couldn't have been dealt with by the driver. Alistair Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 31A Posted October 31, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 31, 2015 That is not what happened. The lease that Northern had on the 170s was coming to an end so the ROSCO asked Northern if they wished to extend it. Northern said "Yes we would love to but because our franchise is coming to an end we cannot agree to pay for a new lease without the express permission of the DfT". Meanwhile Chiltern had heard on the grapevine that the lease on the units was expiring and said to the ROSCO "We can sign up right now - no need to wait for months while the DfT prevaricates on the issue" so the ROSCO (which is a commercial entity and has to legally prioritise making a profit for its shareholders over DfT franchising policy / timetables) did a deal with Chiltern. If you want to blame someone, the root of the situation is the previous West Coast franchising debacle and the subsequent 2 year delay which put the tendering of many franchises back by a couple of years ir so. Had this not happened it is quite possible that Northern would have been able to renew the lease immediately and keep the stock. Sorry if this sounds pedantic, but Northern have never had any 170s....... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 ISTR that when he was running Chiltern, Adrian Shooter and the C&PR Rly were looking at a collaboration to rebuild a station at Aston Rowant with a Park and Ride fairly close to Lewknor. There was also talk of re-opening the Princess Risborough-Thame-Oxford branch - most of whose trackbed is still unencumbered but that was a single track line and possibly not far enough away from the existing lines. I thought that idea originated long before then. The route via Thame would involve serious work beyond Thame and would require significant new bridges to be built, in particular over the M40 near Wheatley. Most of the bridges have had their decking removed and the stub walls hardly seem to be in a fit condition to be re used. Funnily enough the section between roughly Bledlow and Thame has more users these days, since opening as a foot and cycle route, than it ever did when it was a railway. The car park, or rather lack of, at Lewknor is an absolute disgrace and an eyesore of the worst order. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenw Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 Sorry if this sounds pedantic, but Northern have never had any 170s....... Well, could have simply said it was actually Trans Pennine Express that had their 170s taken, but otherwise that is what happened Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrushVeteran Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 Brett's Burgers. Second only to Peppers in Walton Street I remember Brett's................................I think they closed after a customer asked for their burgers to be well done!!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Dickerson Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 Brett's Burgers. Second only to Peppers in Walton Street Pfft. With Brett's even the building was flame grilled... (Ah well, BrushVeteran got there first. Mind you, I thought Brett's caught fire more than once.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Dickerson Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 The car park, or rather lack of, at Lewknor is an absolute disgrace and an eyesore of the worst order. Bernard Agreed. With connections to Oxford, London, and now Heathrow and Gatwick it must be one of the best-served laybys in the country. I've many "happy" memories of watching last-minute parental cars block the leaving Oxford-bound bus to get their delightful spawn on board, before pulling back out into speeding traffic, too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 31, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 31, 2015 Just a few things to point out from your partly unfair comments. The bus times are being hampered by some roadworks on the route making traffic around Oxford even worse than it usually is and happening during half term was just a bit of bad planning. Not a Chiltern issue but we aren't happy about it. Part of the station staff job roles can see them away from the desk for multiple reasons, and there would be a valid reason for not being there not that he just fancied a walkabout. After only working for Chiltern since the end of August, there are going to be gaps in their knowledge and with only 2 having worked on the railway before (1 unfortunately being placed on long term sick before opening and the other with 6 months experience as a replacement taxi co-ordinator (his words) at Oxford) there is going to be a few issues whilst they build up that knowledge. Nobody knows everything with a maximum of 8 weeks in to a brand new job. The reason that the trains were all delayed was due to having a fire alarm activation on one of the 68's at one of the Ruislip stations and after what happen the previous week at High Wycome, fleet aren't taking any chances on it happening again, so they cancelled the train. It was found to be false alarm but was triggered by a different fault that couldn't have been dealt with by the driver. Alistair I don't regard my comments as in the least unfair. Station staff are there to provide a service and assistance to passengers - end of story. And they should be trained to do that before they are put into the firing line - and let's be honest about it any safety training apart their duties at a station like OXP are relatively simple. And 'since the end of August' means that over a month has been available to train them and let them gain some initial experience at an operational station - just how long does it take nowadays to train somebody in very basic station duties with a currently equally simple train service? As far as the man looking after the barrier was concerned he quite literally wandered off onto the Down platform with somebody (who didn't actually join a train) several minutes before a train was due to depart. His job at that time was clearly to man the barriers - not go off on what appeared to be some sort of 'look at this trip'. If his other duties allow there is plenty of time to do that in much of the 1 hour gap between trains and not shortly before a train is due to depart when people wish to be able to get to the platform it will leave from. And I did notice that the (apparently) senior member of staff subsequently 'had a word with him'. As far as the 'bus times are concerned I am aware of the roadworks - but then those who provide information to intending passengers should be equally aware of them and take them into account so my comment there is absolutely valid. You need to allow much more time, and take an earlier 'bus, than is indicated on the National Rail Inquiries website. And even if the 'bus had been on time there would only be 9 minutes available to walk from the 'bus stop, crossing several roads and via a circuitous route, to the station before then having to cross to the far platform and that could be too tight for the many people who are no longer young and nimble. If the train had been on time I would have missed it (as would other folk who had travelled on that 'bus) and it would have been a close run thing even if the train had made its initially advertised 12.24 departure time. The situation with the Class 68 fire alarm is perfectly understandable. Fortunately the Class 68 which hauled me from High Wycombe to Banbury seemed to working very well and the on-train staff were doing a good job. Incidentally as far as developing this route as opposed to that via Thame one major advantage is that it is far easier to create platform capacity at Oxford and to access it without any significant interference with other traffic flows. I see that most of the pointwork to connect to the Bicester line is now in place at Oxford North Junction (or thereabouts) although there is no sign as yet of much work being done on the Bicester line itself or quite how far the double track will reach in that vicinity.j Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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