Presteigne/Kington train

[johnarcher]

Has anyone any suggestions on what constituted the Presteigne branch train in the 1920's and 30's? There doesn't seem to be a proper book on the line, and I've found pre-WW1 and 1950's pictures on line but nothing in between.

 

(just an idea I'm tempted by for a few reasons, a little more information would help decide whether to pursue it further).

Edited November 15, 2015 by johnarcher

[wagonman]

Has anyone any suggestions on what constituted the Presteigne branch train in the 1920's and 30's? There doesn't seem to be a proper book on the line, and I've found pre-WW1 and 1950's pictures on line but nothing in between.

 

(just an idea I'm tempted by for a few reasons, a little more information would help decide whether to pursue it further).

 

I would assume (on the basis of what happened elsewhere) that the pre-WW1 trains – 2x4wheel coaches plus a Toad for mixed trains – would have continued until the early '30s when modern replacements such as 58xx and a B set (or whatever – seems rather generous provision for Presteigne) took over. Actually the neighbouring New Radnor branch was operated by a 3571 class 0-4-2T up to 1947 so that may have appeared at Presteigne too. Goods traffic seems to have been the province of smaller saddle/pannier tanks of 850 and 2021 classes, later replaced by 74xx, and of course Dean Goods locos.

 

There is a photo of a 3 coach clerestory set at Kington in the 1930s, probably running Kington to Leominster. What was actually used on the Pesteigne and Eardisley branches is not known for certain, at least not by me! Anyone got a Worcester Division Carriage Working Book?

[johnarcher]

I would assume (on the basis of what happened elsewhere) that the pre-WW1 trains – 2x4wheel coaches plus a Toad for mixed trains – would have continued until the early '30s when modern replacements such as 58xx and a B set (or whatever – seems rather generous provision for Presteigne) took over. Actually the neighbouring New Radnor branch was operated by a 3571 class 0-4-2T up to 1947 so that may have appeared at Presteigne too. Goods traffic seems to have been the province of smaller saddle/pannier tanks of 850 and 2021 classes, later replaced by 74xx, and of course Dean Goods locos.

 

There is a photo of a 3 coach clerestory set at Kington in the 1930s, probably running Kington to Leominster. What was actually used on the Pesteigne and Eardisley branches is not known for certain, at least not by me! Anyone got a Worcester Division Carriage Working Book?

Thank you for that answer, could you tell me where you saw the Kington clerestories photo?

If anyone has more information about what was used on the Leominster - Kington services in the '30's I'd be interested in that too.

Even locomotive allocation to Kington (sub-shed of Hereford then?) in the '30's?

These lines don't seem well covered in books (except New Radnor), there is the Middleton 'Ludlow to Hereford' book but I'm reluctant to buy it in case it has very little on the branches

Edited November 15, 2015 by johnarcher

[JDaniels]

Has anyone any suggestions on what constituted the Presteigne branch train in the 1920's and 30's? There doesn't seem to be a proper book on the line, and I've found pre-WW1 and 1950's pictures on line but nothing in between.

 

(just an idea I'm tempted by for a few reasons, a little more information would help decide whether to pursue it further).

The New Radnor branch book that you mention has several photos of B sets, quite modern stock for a very rural backwater but then these photos were taken in the 1940's.

There was an article about Presteigne station in a very old Model Railway Constructor but this gives little information on the rolling stock used. However the Oakwood Press book, Great Western Branch Lines, does have two photographs taken at Presteigne and whilst earlier than the dates you are looking at these show four wheel coaches. It is quite reasonable to assume that four wheel coaches would still have been used well into the 20's. I do have a vague recollection that an old GW Journal may have further infornmation on the carriages used. The same photos show the inevitable 517 0-4-2T but also, and more unusually, a 1701 0-6-0ST. In later years (mid 1930's on) a fair clutch of 58xx 0-4-2T's were allocated to Leominster with a couple outstationed at Kington and these worked all the branches from Kington. The 3571 0-4-2T's did appear on the New Radnor trains but I think these were through trains from Worcester (via Bromyard) and were more associated with the Bromyard branch rather than New Radnor as understand they were shedded at Worcester.  The service timetable I have seems to show that the Kington and Eardisley branches were worked by the same loco and coaches throughout the day. The goods traffic was worked by an 0-6-0T.

I've always liked the more rural backwaters of the GWR and Presteigne, a very attractive station, is one well worth modelling. I hope that temptation turns into reality.

[johnarcher]

The New Radnor branch book that you mention has several photos of B sets, quite modern stock for a very rural backwater but then these photos were taken in the 1940's.

There was an article about Presteigne station in a very old Model Railway Constructor but this gives little information on the rolling stock used. However the Oakwood Press book, Great Western Branch Lines, does have two photographs taken at Presteigne and whilst earlier than the dates you are looking at these show four wheel coaches. It is quite reasonable to assume that four wheel coaches would still have been used well into the 20's. I do have a vague recollection that an old GW Journal may have further infornmation on the carriages used. The same photos show the inevitable 517 0-4-2T but also, and more unusually, a 1701 0-6-0ST. In later years (mid 1930's on) a fair clutch of 58xx 0-4-2T's were allocated to Leominster with a couple outstationed at Kington and these worked all the branches from Kington. The 3571 0-4-2T's did appear on the New Radnor trains but I think these were through trains from Worcester (via Bromyard) and were more associated with the Bromyard branch rather than New Radnor as understand they were shedded at Worcester.  The service timetable I have seems to show that the Kington and Eardisley branches were worked by the same loco and coaches throughout the day. The goods traffic was worked by an 0-6-0T.

I've always liked the more rural backwaters of the GWR and Presteigne, a very attractive station, is one well worth modelling. I hope that temptation turns into reality.

Thank you, that's very helpful. I had hoped for early 58xx's.

I had thought/hoped there might be old Dean panelled stock between the 4-wheelers and more modern things (as at Looe, Culm Valley etc), as in the 1930's photo wagonman mentions.

So, a promising combination so far - for later '30's - 58xx, maybe Dean stock, the photographed AA3 road van.

I am surprised how unrecorded these lines seem, compared to the Devon/Cornwall branches I'm more familiar with, but Presteigne is attractive, even has my favourite Clarke buildings. Only two objections - the difficulty of amassing enough information, and the fact that it's on the edge of just about the most attractive area of vernacular buildings I know, but too far from the town to include any.

 

If anyone has numbers for the MRC and the GWJournal you mention that would be nice (the online GWJournal index doesn't seem to find Kington).

Edited November 15, 2015 by johnarcher

[wagonman]

The New Radnor Branch by Nicholas de Courtais, published by Wild Swan. I don't know if it's still in print though. For Presteign(e) fans there's a photo or two of the buildings, including one from the rear, on eBay at the moment. I didn't make a note of the reference, alas.

 

For what it's worth, the Malmesbury branch (much more my sort of territory) train used to consist of 3x4 wheelers* hauled by a 517. In the early '30s modernisation came – but the loco changed before the coaches, so for a year or two you had the same old Dean coaches being hauled back and forth by a brand new 58xx tank: 5802 usually. Then the B-set came.

 

* Fairly standard rig of two T34s flanking a U4

[beast66606]

Presteigne is one of those random places of interest to me - 20+ years ago I used to go badger watching not too far from there and the sett was on the old railway formation. Somewhere I have a photo of the station with a signal - which dates it to pre 1937 iirc as the box went quite early.

[davepen]

There are a few shots of Presteigne Station at the start of David Roscoe's (October) 1962  VSCC film.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1lDw-j7Veo

 

In 1963 they use the station for a test at the beginning.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2paqAs4SQ4

 

These were created for car club members, not Railway fans, but show the site just after closure.

 

New Radnor Station has been converted in to a Caravan park - and some (1950's 14xx) pictures are in the caravans.

They have some others on their web site, including a few Edwardian.

www.oldstationcaravanpark.co.uk/photo-galleries/photos-the-park-past-times/

It is still used by the VSCC as a base for their Smatcher test.

 

 

 

 

 

[wagonman]

One of the Edwardian photos looks like a V13 full brake coach on the train.

 

http://www.oldstationcaravanpark.co.uk/photo-galleries/photos-the-park-past-times/

 

es, there are 5 panels between the luggage doors and the end of the vehicle which certainly fits with V13...

[MarkAustin]

The New Radnor branch book that you mention has several photos of B sets, quite modern stock for a very rural backwater but then these photos were taken in the 1940's.

There was an article about Presteigne station in a very old Model Railway Constructor but this gives little information on the rolling stock used. However the Oakwood Press book, Great Western Branch Lines, does have two photographs taken at Presteigne and whilst earlier than the dates you are looking at these show four wheel coaches. It is quite reasonable to assume that four wheel coaches would still have been used well into the 20's. I do have a vague recollection that an old GW Journal may have further infornmation on the carriages used. The same photos show the inevitable 517 0-4-2T but also, and more unusually, a 1701 0-6-0ST. In later years (mid 1930's on) a fair clutch of 58xx 0-4-2T's were allocated to Leominster with a couple outstationed at Kington and these worked all the branches from Kington. The 3571 0-4-2T's did appear on the New Radnor trains but I think these were through trains from Worcester (via Bromyard) and were more associated with the Bromyard branch rather than New Radnor as understand they were shedded at Worcester.  The service timetable I have seems to show that the Kington and Eardisley branches were worked by the same loco and coaches throughout the day. The goods traffic was worked by an 0-6-0T.

I've always liked the more rural backwaters of the GWR and Presteigne, a very attractive station, is one well worth modelling. I hope that temptation turns into reality.

GWRJ Issue 31 pp4188-9 has three photos of Presteigne after closure to passenger traffic, shewing 1420 in a bay, 1420 with train at station platform, and the station sign, backed by a rather tatty fence, and the end of the station. All in colour.

 

Data from the GWRJ Index at http://www.gwrjournal.com/index.phpperhaps a search there on other keywords might find something.

 

Mark A

[johnarcher]

Thanks for that reply, actually I have seen similar (or the same) pictures online -

http://www.archive-images.co.uk/gallery/Archive-Colour-Images-of-the-Railways-of-Herefords/pages/5/

 

There are some pictures after WW2 and a few before WW!, it's the bit between I was having trouble with. I suspect the story would be, roughly, small saddle tanks and 517's and 4-wheelers till early 30's, probably some old Dean bogie stock for a while (as on the Golden Valley), maybe a 58XX or two, and 1420 arriving at some date and lasting until the end.

If anyone can confirm or correct (or tell me where the 1937 picture of clerestories is) I'd be grateful.

[wagonman]

Thanks for that reply, actually I have seen similar (or the same) pictures online -

http://www.archive-images.co.uk/gallery/Archive-Colour-Images-of-the-Railways-of-Herefords/pages/5/

 

There are some pictures after WW2 and a few before WW!, it's the bit between I was having trouble with. I suspect the story would be, roughly, small saddle tanks and 517's and 4-wheelers till early 30's, probably some old Dean bogie stock for a while (as on the Golden Valley), maybe a 58XX or two, and 1420 arriving at some date and lasting until the end.

If anyone can confirm or correct (or tell me where the 1937 picture of clerestories is) I'd be grateful.

 

Photo is in 'The New Radnor Branch' by Nicholas de Courtais, published by Wild Swan. I don't know if it's still in print – a quick email to Simon at the Titfield Thunderbolt could confirm either way.

[John Mair]

I hope that it is in order to revive this topic - although I am afraid that I do not have any reliable information about passenger rolling stock on the Presteign(e) branch.  It would seem likely that during the 1920s the four wheeled carriages would have been replaced by bogie stock 'cascaded' from other (dare one say more important) lines.  I think it unlikely that  B sets were found on the Eardisley/Presteign branches:  they were sometimes used on the Kington and New Radnor 'main line' because the trains concerned worked through from Worcester via Bromyard.  By the late 1930s the Eardisley/Presteign service was worked by a new non-corridor composite coach with a goods brake van attached (in case it were desired to attach/detach goods vehicles en route). As J Daniels noted on 15 November, 2015 (above), the Presteign and Eardisley branches were (at least as early as 1932, and probably before) worked by a single train, which normally began and ended its journeys at Kington (rather than at Titley Junction).  Whether this operating economy actually corresponded with the times at which people actually wished to travel is another matter!

 

There were some signals at Presteign, specifically a presumably distant signal sited some distance east of the station, and, again presumably, home and starting signals.  The position of the signals can be seen on an early 20c. 25" O. S. map.

 

The line was built by the Leominster and Kington Railway, but the GWR operated the line from the outset,  (September, 1875), and (for the proverbial song) acquired the L&KR in 1898, whereupon it looked for economies.  Apparently these included the abolition of the signals, deemed unnecessary because the line was worked on the one-engine-in-steam principle.  What appears to have been a (non-standard) signal box remained in situ at the south end of the passenger platform, but photographs do not show any rodding tunnel.  The points were latterly worked from two ground frames, and the point at the far (north) end of the layout leading to the run round loop was operated by a simple hand lever.

 

The main station building was of typical - and pleasing - William Clarke design, but looked forlorn after the removal of the canopy in c.1950.

 

John Mair

 

 

Edited December 14, 2022 by John Mair
New information has come to light.

[johnarcher]

An apparently defunct question risen from the dead!

Actually I  thought the 4 wheelers might have lasted into the early 30s, as on the Golden Valley.

Do you know what variety of non corridor composite, and I wonder would the brake van have been the main Kington one (an AA13 road van IIRC at some point, but I don't remember it's dates offhand)?

[John Mair]

20 March, 2023

 

I am sorry, John:  only on Saturday last (18 March) did I return to this thread, and I then saw your post of  20 December (above).

 

Unfortunately I cannot enlarge much upon what I wrote before.  My information came from an article - 'The Kington Branch of the G.W.R.' - written by John D. Hewitt and published in The Railway Magazine for September, 1939  (pages 191 - 196).   On page 194 he writes: 'These two branches [Presteign and Eardisley] share one train, which on the writer's visit last year [i.e. 1938] consisted of a standard 0-4-2 tank engine, a brand new composite non-corridor bogie coach, and a goods brake van [type not specified]. The latter carried several milk churns full of water - though whether for supplementing the engine's tank supply or servicing the stations, he did not discover'.

 

I doubt if auto-trains were used on the Presteign and Eardisley branches, as I sense that the G.W.R. was averse to using them on steeply graded, switchback, lines (does anyone know about this for certain?) The LMSR used 'motor trains' on the very steep (in places 1 in 27) Holywell Town Branch, but the inclination was upwards all the way from Holywell Junction to Holywell Town, and so the engine could always be at the lower end of the train.

 

The Titley and Eardisley section was closed in July, 1940, and, after the withdrawal of passenger services over the Kington to New Radnor and Titley to Presteign sections in 1951, auto trains were sometimes/often  used on the surviving section between Leominster and Kington.  This did include a quite long section (between Pembridge/Marston Halt and Titley) at 1 in 80, but evidently this was acceptable for auto train operation.

 

As for the 'milk churns' - above - I surmise that these may have been the similar looking (but not identical) water churns which were used for the benefit of stations without their own water supply. I imagine that Presteign and Eardisley would have had their own supply, but I do not know about Lyonshall or Almeley. Titley was, however, dependent upon deliveries of fresh water. In ??1947/1948 a former glass lined milk tank wagon was installed in a siding behind the down platform to hold a large volume of water (I believe still delivered by churns). How fresh the contents remained is a matter for the imagination!

 

The Middleton book Ludlow to Hereford does contain about 60 pictures of the Kington lines, in addition to views of Leominster and of Kington Junction (where the Kington line diverged from the main 'North and West' route).

 

Best Wishes, John (Mair)

Edited March 26, 2023 by John Mair
Correction of small typographical mistake.

[The Stationmaster]

The GWR used auto-trains on the Ashburtion branch although the gradients were not particularlu y steep (only 1in50 and 1in60 over the two worst quarter miles) but they were allowed to take tail traffic and they were worked withouta Guard even when tail traffic was conveyed. (48XX/14XX engines).  they also ran on the Ynysybwl branch where the steepest gradient were a quarter lime at 1 in 40 and 10 chains at 1 in 43 but there an 0-6-0PT was used

[John Mair]

The point (previously unknown to me) about tail traffic on the Ashburton line is very interesting - thank you, Stationmaster.

 

On Old Ynysybwl:  apparently the line west of the junction between the line from Stormstown Junction and the Clydach Court loop (i.e. the connexion providing a direct route to Pontypridd) rose steeply to Old Ynysybwl, so I was surprised to see the photograph on page 658 of The Railway Magazine for September, 1952: this depicts the engine at the upper end of the train (a single auto-coach) standing at Old Ynysybwl Halt: I might have expected the locomotive to have been at the lower end of the train. As you say, a 0-6-0PT was used, in this case No. 5421.

 

At one time there was a purely mineral extension (1 3/4 miles long) beyond Old Ynysybwl to Llanwonno Colliery, reached by a  very steep ascent (1 in 30, 32 and 35).  In this case, the Taff Vale Railway insisted that the engine should always be at the lower (Pontypridd) end of the train, irrespective of the direction of travel.

[The Stationmaster]

On 28/03/2023 at 20:20, John Mair said:

The point (previously unknown to me) about tail traffic on the Ashburton line is very interesting - thank you, Stationmaster.

 

On Old Ynysybwl:  apparently the line west of the junction between the line from Stormstown Junction and the Clydach Court loop (i.e. the connexion providing a direct route to Pontypridd) rose steeply to Old Ynysybwl, so I was surprised to see the photograph on page 658 of The Railway Magazine for September, 1952: this depicts the engine at the upper end of the train (a single auto-coach) standing at Old Ynysybwl Halt: I might have expected the locomotive to have been at the lower end of the train. As you say, a 0-6-0PT was used, in this case No. 5421.

 

At one time there was a purely mineral extension (1 3/4 miles long) beyond Old Ynysybwl to Llanwonno Colliery, reached by a  very steep ascent (1 in 30, 32 and 35).  In this case, the Taff Vale Railway insisted that the engine should always be at the lower (Pontypridd) end of the train, irrespective of the direction of travel.

All the photos I have seen of Ynysybwl branch auto trains have the engine at the Ynysybwl end.  The maximum gradient on the branch was 1 in 40 which would equate to a maximum load of 90 tons for a 54XX so the train was we;; within the load limit with a single trailer.  

 

I wonder if the train was marshalled that way round to ensure that the driver would be on the engine at the most difficult parts of the journey?  Probably more likely that it was the easiest way  of doing the job - trailer perhaps left in the bay at Pontypridd and if the engine was going to Abercynon shed it was in any case required that there (Appendix Instruction) the chimney was at the Up end when an engine went on shed.

[br2975]

On 04/04/2023 at 16:07, The Stationmaster said:

All the photos I have seen of Ynysybwl branch auto trains have the engine at the Ynysybwl end.  The maximum gradient on the branch was 1 in 40 which would equate to a maximum load of 90 tons for a 54XX so the train was we;; within the load limit with a single trailer.  

 

I wonder if the train was marshalled that way round to ensure that the driver would be on the engine at the most difficult parts of the journey?  Probably more likely that it was the easiest way  of doing the job - trailer perhaps left in the bay at Pontypridd and if the engine was going to Abercynon shed it was in any case required that there (Appendix Instruction) the chimney was at the Up end when an engine went on shed.

.

Mike, just a thought - it may have been worked loco first to Ynysybwl, as the loco came light from Abercynon, and the auto coach was invariably stabled overnight in the bay at Pontypridd.

.

That would allow the light engine from Abercynon to back onto, and couple up to the auto trailer and then head off, chimney first 'up the valley'

.

This also appears to be the auto trailer(s) for Abercynon's "JB Auto" (aka St. Fagans Pullman) which were stabled at night in Pontypridd, yet the loco ran light to/from Abercynon; and 'most' photos of 'JB' show the loco (invariably a 64xx) at the Ponty /Abercynon end of the train.

[John Mair]

Just in case anyone is still following the Presteign(e) line thread, may I mention that my book 'The Kington Lines: from Leominster to Kington and New Radnor, including the Branches to Presteigne and Eardisley', has now been published by the Oakwood Press (in their 'Library of Railway History' series)?  The book is not intended to be exhaustive/definitive, but does attempt to give some coverage to most aspects of the lines concerned, and includes references for further reading.

[The Johnster]

TTBOMK the bulk of South Wales auto working was performed with the loco at the ‘uphill’ end of the train.  Where 3-coach ‘sandwich’ working was used, such as the Coryton Branch and Saturday working on the Tondu Valleys lines, the single trailer was at the uphill end of the train.  One might have some sympathy for the fireman on the Coryton trains, alone all day aboard on a 4575, and having to cope with the smartly-timed  uphill blast from *Crwys to Heath Jc., with rush-hour traffic to keep out of the way of and perhaps with injectors playing up…

 

It makes sense for Abercynon auto locos to couple to their trains in the north-facing bays at Pontypridd for the Ynysybwl* and the Porth-Maerdy shuttle, but the stock for the St. Fagans Pullman and the PC&N workings was kept in the south-facing bays, so some shunting was needed to position JB’s engine at the uphill end. 
 

 

*Not English-friendly.  The Welsh alphabet misses some English consonants and uses others as vowels. Crew-iss’ (crusader) and ‘Un-iss-er-bull’ (island in a pool or pit) will get you close enough…

 

There is no J, K, Q, V, X, or Z, and Y & W are vowels.  F equates to English V, Ff fullfilling the soft F function, Cw equates to Q. 

 

[Oldddudders]

4 hours ago, The Johnster said:

There is no J, K, Q, V, X, or Z, and Y & W are vowels.  F equates to English V, Ff fullfilling the soft F function, Cw equates to Q. 

So who named Lake Vyrnwy, then? The English?

[Welchester]

4 hours ago, The Johnster said:

*Not English-friendly.  The Welsh alphabet misses some English consonants and uses others as vowels. Crew-iss’ (crusader) and ‘Un-iss-er-bull’ (island in a pool or pit) will get you close enough…

 

There is no J, K, Q, V, X, or Z, and Y & W are vowels.  F equates to English V, Ff fullfilling the soft F function, Cw equates to Q. 

 

 

I once heard somebody pronounce Ynysddu as 'Yuns dew'.

 

OTOH I have never seen the Welsh spelling of Varteg (near Pontnewynydd).

[Captain Kernow]

On 24/01/2024 at 10:50, John Mair said:

Just in case anyone is still following the Presteign(e) line thread, may I mention that my book 'The Kington Lines: from Leominster to Kington and New Radnor, including the Branches to Presteigne and Eardisley', has now been published by the Oakwood Press (in their 'Library of Railway History' series)?  The book is not intended to be exhaustive/definitive, but does attempt to give some coverage to most aspects of the lines concerned, and includes references for further reading.

Thanks for this, it looks very good. I've requested this in connection with a forthcoming birthday...!

 

[Ian Hargrave]

44 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

So who named Lake Vyrnwy, then? The English?

In Cymraeg,Efrynwy ( f=v ) The river valley of that name was flooded in 1880 to provide a water supply to Liverpool .In essence the answer to your question is yes but probably also due to the gradual influx of migrating population from ,as we say,”up England way” and their speech patterns etc.