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The Taddington branch of the LNWR


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  • RMweb Gold

Hi Northroader, Thanks for the post, I do know that picture, and it illustrates the point that there doesn't appear to be any standardised fitment around that time (1880s).

 

On the carriage rooves can be seen the tall perforated drums for the oil lights, shorter drums and fittings a lot like the later gas lamp tops (although too early for those).

I suspect it is the shorter drums I need to fit to the brake thirds with the tall drums on the composite (the kit only supplies castings for the tall drums for both types)

It is the shorter discs next to the oil lights I was trying to identify, I never considered they might be bungs.

I did wonder if they were an oil reservoir of some kind but your explanation makes sense.

 

Whilst the LNWR Carriage fleet is well document most of the literature relates to the post 1887 Park era. Very little is written about the fleet under the previous carriage superintendent Richard Bore.

 

As for the roof lights, I've only noticed these on full brakes, never brakes with passenger compartments, more reading required!

 

I've managed to loose my LNWR Soc membership number otherwise I'd post some questions on their forum........ :blush:

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I was wondering about the differing lamp chimney heights, at that date they must all be for oil lamps. Im sure about the bungs, the LBSC carriage book gives some clearer pictures of them, and they always pair up with a lamp chimney. You can understand why they were provided. Most pictures you see the bungs are on the roof, implying the lamps are in position.

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One of the little details are the two 'retainers' about halfway between the roof edge and the centre line, which seems to have a cable/rope running through it, at the ends going through the roof grab handles.  The 'clean' roof can be seen on the second coach where the cable/rope has moved about, and it is visible on the first coach.

It's not the 'Harrison Cord' as this ran along the eaves of the coaches.

 

post-6979-0-24328900-1486498932.jpg

 

This is a Oil Lamp!!  OK Obvious.......

 

post-6979-0-54741000-1486499337.jpg

 

... and some Coach roofs at Perth, I believe before 1877.

 

post-6979-0-78164100-1486499440.jpg

Edited by Penlan
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  • RMweb Gold

One of the little details are the two 'retainers' about halfway between the roof edge and the centre line, which seems to have a cable/rope running through it, at the ends going through the roof grab handles.  The 'clean' roof can be seen on the second coach where the cable/rope has moved about, and it is visible on the first coach.

 

It's not the 'Harrison Cord' as this ran along the eaves of the coaches.

 

attachicon.gifCoach roofs #2.jpg

 

This is a Oil Lamp!!  OK Obvious.......

 

attachicon.gifCoach Oil Lamp.jpg

 

... and some Coach roofs at Perth, I believe before 1877.

 

attachicon.gifPerth carriages pre-1877 #2.jpg

 

As you say Penlan, I have wondered about that myself. The cleats for the Harrison communications cord are clearly visible on the roof edge, the Clarke & Webb chain brake ran underneath, so what is that cord and retainer?

 

Thanks for the oil lamp picture, it gives me something to model the "bung" off.

I was going for a plain disc, but I guess I can't get away with that now!  :nono:

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  • RMweb Gold

If you are not going for night time running with the lamps in place and a dim glow inside your coaches you do not need to model the bungs.  My understanding is that the little man climbed onto the roof, probably before the train set off on its journey as the sun went down and put the lamps in the tops of the coaches, removing the bungs at the same time.  If you model the bungs you will need little LEDs and full interiors.

 

The coach is looking really nice.

Edited by ChrisN
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If you are not going for night time running with the lamps in place and a dim glow inside your coaches you do not need to model the bungs.  My understanding is that the little man climbed onto the roof, probably before the train set off on its journey as the sun went down and put the lamps in the tops of the coaches, removing the bungs at the same time.  If you model the bungs you will need little LEDs and full interiors.

If you model the coach with the lamps removed and the bungs in the resultant hole, then you need to model the empty rings in which the bungs sat when the lamps were in place.  To say 'you do not need to model the bungs' is slightly misleading as the bungs were either in the lamp sockets or in the adjacent retaining rings.  They were attached by chains to the latter, so were never off the coach.

 

Jim

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Northroader, they are gas lamps on the roof, non-removable, there will be a small dia., pipe connecting them on the roof, the pipe descending down the non-step end of the coach to the gas cylinders under the coach.

The removable ones are oil lamps.

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  • RMweb Gold

Thanks for the replies and information.

 

I hadn't considered lighting the carriages, partly because I'm using batteries and remote control, the rails will be dead.

However, given the minuscule current consumption of LEDs these could be powered off a CR3032 which should be easy enough to hide.

 

I've been using  bright LED bike light powered off a couple of these for a while now so I'm confident about longevity.

 

Adding lights will help to display the interior which I was planning to add.

Nothing too bright mind,  just a dull yellow glow.

 

Looks like I've talked myself into more work!

 

Northroader,

 

Thanks for the drawing, I spent last night flicking through my various carriage books looking for an example, but managed to miss this one!

 

Looks like a roof light will also be required.

 

That should be this weekends modelling sorted.

Edited by Argos
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  • RMweb Gold

This weekend's modelling focused on getting the body externals finished on the first brake third coach.

This took longer than expected and some work was done last night to finish.

 

The brake gear is now virtually fully modelled, the only things I've neglected is anything above the chassis line and the linkage to the brakes that sit behind the wheels and wouldn't be visible anyway.

 

The construction is based on plans of the early vacuum brakes (with vertical vacuum cylinder) fitted to the 30' 1" 6 wheeled carriages.

The details are contained in the LNWR Society folio on these carriages.

I hasten to add, this is not an exact scale replica of the equipment, rather a close facsimile.

 

post-13616-0-02728900-1487103629.jpg

 

I'm quite pleased with the result, especially as everything below the Chassis apart from the white metal brakes is scratch built.

 

I think the effort is worthwhile as the brake equipment effectively "clutters" the underside that would otherwise be noticeably empty.

 

post-13616-0-40780500-1487103791.jpg

 

Please note the roof is not fitted yet in these photos.

 

The Vacuum pipes on the coaches ends have been left short. As the rake will be permanently coupled I am intending to fit some flexible hose made from some heat shrink to connect the crriages. This will be fitted on the other coaches are finished.

 

 post-13616-0-62154000-1487103947.jpg

 

Now the soldering is complete I can start the interior which will be fabricated from plasticard.

I'm looking forward to this aspect of the build as I haven't attempted anything like this. 

I do have some seat moldings though, which should speed up the process.

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  • RMweb Gold

Hi Poggy,

 

The kits of these coaches exist in a couple of scales, I suspect they are all shrunk from the original Gauge 1 etches, I might be wrong though.

The instructions for the Composite are still for the Gauge 1 kit.

 

Gauge 1:- Mercian Models - http://www.modelrailways.tv/10mm-rolling-stock-page-2.html

O Gauge:- Meteor Models - http://www.meteormodels.co.uk/

4mm Scale:- London Road Models - http://www.londonroadmodels.co.uk/

 

I'm building the Meteor Models ones, they are reasonably priced at around £55 each.

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Do you know who built the WM&CQR coaches?

There were a number of coach builders out there that even some of the big companies turned to. Equally the big companies sold off there coaches to the smaller companies as they up greaded there coaches to larger ones.

LSWR 1st/2nd Comp

LSWR Brake 3rd

LSWR All 3rd

These are LSWR coaches, they were sold off to the B&MR in Wales and various Col Stephens railways.

Ashbury Coaches

These are standard Ashbury coaches a brake 3rd and a 1st/3rd Comp of 1885. We know that they were sold to the Cambrian and the Furness. They could well have been sold to other small companies.

Light Railway All 3rd

Brake End coach

These are Standard Metropolitan Carriage and Wagon Co all 3rd and Brake 3rd of 1860-1875. We know that these were sold to the Cambrian, Manchester and Milford, Furness, North British, LSWR, Whitehaven and Cleator (passing to the Furness and LNWR), Pembroke  and Tenby and LBSCR.
 
Hope these helps
 
Marc  

 

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Do you know who built the WM&CQR coaches?

 

There isn't a lot of info on the WMCQR stock.All the documentary evidence points to purchase from the L&NWR in the later period. The most widely circulated photos show L&NWR thirds and break thirds built at Saltley in the 1860s and available from London Road in 4mm. Thee are other pics which appear to show the earlier shared window third also available from London Road. The stock ran in the original L&NWR livery until the end of the railway c1906, although the L&NWR will have carefully scraped off any gold leaf in nthe lining and photos show no class markings. By the end some had been repainted in all over grubby Lake colour..

Edited by webbcompound
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The kits of these coaches exist in a couple of scales, I suspect they are all shrunk from the original Gauge 1 etches, I might be wrong though

 

Oh dear....me again........I have to put my hand up for doing the kits in gauge 1 to go with my 10mm scale Crewe Goods kit which I sold under my Old Originals banner. I sold them on to Meteor who reduced them to 7mm scale but they did the artwork for the brake third carriage. London Road Models reduced the all third and comp to 4mm scale.

 

Mercian have my artwork for the Crewe Goods.......you never know one day it might appear again in 7mm scale...

 

John

Edited by Crewe North
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A Crewe goods would be ideal for this layout, wouldn't it?

 

Lovely engines. I remembered being severely tempted by the Gauge 1 kit when it was available, but Gauge 1 would really be pushing it in the amount of room I have.

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  • RMweb Gold

Hi Poggy,

 

You are not mistaken there, a Crewe Goods would be ideal, both square tank and tender variety.

The date I've chosen for Taddington is late enough to enable modern locos such as the 5' 6" inch tank but still allow some of the more interesting piece of stock that was put out to pasture around Buxton.

The Crewe Goods tanks and tenders alongside Webb's Compound and rebuilt Metro tanks are all on the to-do list, albeit a long way off (like a decade or so!).

 

London Road Models have just released a kit for 777 the 2-2-4-0T in 4mm, 

Seeing if the etches can be blown up to 7mm would make the construction simpler.

If Crewe Goods etches exist in 10mm it would be interesting to see if these could be shrunk back to 7mm.

 

I will investigate further once I've complete the current kit pile.

If anyone else is interested can they let me know, I suspect getting more than one set of etches will increase the viability of getting this done.

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If Crewe Goods etches exist in 10mm it would be interesting to see if these could be shrunk back to 7mm.

 

I will investigate further once I've complete the current kit pile.

If anyone else is interested can they let me know, I suspect getting more than one set of etches will increase the viability of getting this done.

Getting artwork reduce to a smaller scale is certainly viable, provided you reduce the thickness of the metal proportionately.  I have had several of John Boyle's 7mm CR kits reduced to 2mm scale successfully (though some parts are too small to be practical) and I know they have also been done in 4mm.  How well it would work the other way, I don't know.

 

The more kits that are produced the cheaper each becomes as the high cost part is making the initial films.  By the time you have three or four sheets produced from a set of films, the overall cost per sheet has virtually halved in comparison with getting one sheet done.  By 'overall' I mean the total cost, including the films, divided by the number of sheets.

 

Jim

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  • RMweb Gold

Packing the pipe dreaming away for a minute I've been back at the work bench.

 

The brake third has its interior done:-

 

post-13616-0-52039600-1487975588.jpg

 

It is difficult to assess how much detail to add, not much will be seen once the roof is one.

I think I'll limit the detail to adding the pictures over the seats, the luggage racks would be netting which would pose an interesting challenge but probably wouldn't be seen.

The seat sides are gapped off the coach side so will trap the glazing in place.

 

The first passenger trying the seats for comfort:-

 

post-13616-0-04320400-1487975822.jpg

 

With the internal partitions loosely in place and providing some bracing  I drilled out the holes for the grab handles by the coach doors.

I also added the destination board brackets ether side of the vent above the center window.

 

post-13616-0-15317000-1487975979.jpg

 

locating and holding the destination board brackets whilst soldering gave me a bit of a headache, After an hours work I had one in position, several secreted in the carpet and another couple safely stored in the bookcase having pinged out of the pliers, tweezers or whatever else I was using to hold them in position. 

 

In frustration I headed out for a run, only for it dawn on me a couple of miles in that all I need was a length of none metallic strip that I could hold the brackets against.

 

Once showered a couple of minutes had a piece of paxolin striped of it's copper and cut to size. Another minute had the brackets soldered in place.....I guess sometimes the obvious gets hidden.

 

Now all the soldering is finished the coach has been given its final scrub clean and is drying on the radiator. If it's another nice day tomorrow I'll fit the interior and get the first coast of primer on. 

 

Meanwhile I'll turn my attention to the full brake....or as turns out full break.

Edited by Argos
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  • RMweb Gold

Actually it is a full brake after all.....

 

Finishing the interior of the brake 3rd took longer than expected, I add some timber planking to give some texture.

This is probably overkill but I'll see how visible it is prior to repeating it.

The Second and First compartments appear to be paneled so the planking should help differentiate the decor in the compartments.

 

post-13616-0-02789800-1488057766.jpg

 

With the roof on some of the detail is visible, so all worthwhile.

 

post-13616-0-78082600-1488057850.jpg

 

Meanwhile the styrene rod I ordered for the oil lamp plugs has arrived, so I've been playing around trying to recreate these.

 

I think the first attempt is pretty close, The only question is whether it's repeatable.

 

 

post-13616-0-09106700-1488058088.jpg

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  • Craftsmanship/clever 1
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  • RMweb Gold

The coach has been through the paint shop for its undercoat.

There is something satisfying in covering up the brass, however nice it looks in the raw.

 

post-13616-0-63833000-1488141684.jpg

 

Whilst I had the spray booth sorted out it seemed sensible to put the passengers through as well, I'll need to get them finished before the roof goes on anyway.

 

post-13616-0-15676200-1488141818.jpg

 

Not all these will be for the brake third, there is only two compartments so it would be a bit overcrowded!

I want the coaches populated but not heaving.

 

Finally I finished the oil lamp plugs, I just need to anchor the chain at the lamp end.

I'm quite chuffed with how these have turned out.

Once this is done the roof can be primed.

 

post-13616-0-04275500-1488142061.jpg

 

For the next step I'm going to break out the airbrush.

It has been in the cupboard for seven years now! I really need to get around to using it.

I've always managed using Halford's rattle cans or brush painting, but for the plum and split milk, these need to be sprayed.

I just need to overcome the inertia and get practicing.

I'll start with the chassis, that way any mistakes should be hidden.

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  • Craftsmanship/clever 1
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Finally I finished the oil lamp plugs, I just need to anchor the chain at the lamp end.

I'm quite chuffed with how these have turned out.

Once this is done the roof can be primed.

The chain wasn't anchored to the lamp, it was anchored to the ring in which the plug sat.

 

Jim

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  • RMweb Gold

Hi Jim,

 

It probably varied from company to company, I was going off Penlan's picture in post 378.

I must admit though photo's of the LNWR's oil lamps and plugs are hard to come by.

The best shot I've found is plate 42 in Talbot's LNWR Miscellany vol 2.

This is a view over coach rooves inside the Wolverton works.

Some oil lit coaches are in the foreground, it seems the chains are anchored at the base of the lamp hole, the plug being sat in some clips (three?) rather than a ring.

This is similar to Penlan's photo.

 

At this time though there is no guarantee of constancy across the coaching stock, it could have also varied from coach to coach.

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Those 0 gauge coaches look wonderful in their grey primer.

Great news that the airbrush is about to appear. I think they're excellent, Ive only borrowed them but the trick is to get it flowing just right on an expendable token piece before committing to the real work. And remember to spray steadily-on past before stopping or releasing the trigger.

 

As for those poor Taddingtonians destined to be trapped forever in those freezing coaches - they're sitting ducks for goiters (or 'Derbyshire neck' due to lack of iodene - Derbyshire born, Derbyshire bred/strong inth'arm; thick inth'ead).

Best wishes.

:scratchhead:

dh

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