The Taddington branch of the LNWR

[Edwardian]

Well, we seem to be experiencing the Mud Season right now where we are.  I prefer the frost and snow! I don't recall anyone modelling a wet season -puddles after a shower, yes - but the saturated fields, the becks and rivers brown and swollen and lots of dark wet mud everywhere?  No, not seen it done on a UK model railway, so it would be something to see!

[Andy Hayter]

Argo wrote:
 

I can also empathise with pothole comment being an ex-caver, although most of my speleology was done in Yorkshire whilst at university. It was always grim to reach the surface on a cold winters night being wet but warm in the cave to then be exposed to the bitter wind for the yomp back to the car.......

 

And nothing worse than finding the electron ladders thrown over your shoulder have now frozen to your hair!!

 

I think I will stick to modelling summer.

[Argos]

Simon, that's the one! Thanks.

It is a superb layout, shame there are not more posts on the blog.

I frequently go back and re-read his articles as I find his approach inspiring.

The layout original start as a 16x1 foot shelf layout and has grown to a basement size shortline (Model Railroad Planning 2007, Great Model Railroads 2010, Model Railroad planning 2012, I've just dug them out for  re-read  ).

What I particularly like is the simplicity of the track design, the original 16x1 layout had only seven points, basically a loop, a loco stabling shed and four sidings. 

As the layout has developed is is not overcrowd or too intensive.

All the stock is appropriate and the whole scene gels, locos, rolling stock, scenery, buildings all look right.

 

It looks like the seasonal setting is being set for me! Funny how these things seem to get a life of there own!

 

I'll have to let Edwardian down though, being a limestone plateau there will be no swollen rivers. All the water courses are underground (hence the brief diversion into the troglodyte world of caving). If you look at the map there are no streams at all. This gives rise to the local tradition of the Wakes, these are the blessings of the wells, without which the villages could not survive. Having lived in a Peak village for 10 years they always struck me as being a mixture of pagan festival with the vicar along for the ride (to do the blessing). Great fun though!

 

I can however testify to the quantity of mud and surface water, puddles and mucky snow piled against the dry stone walls (especially on the north side). This is from a decade of mountain biking and running around the Peaks.

 

Should be interesting!

I need to go away and investigate how to model snow! 

[Argos]

For those not of a US railroad modelling bent, I have just found some images of the layout referenced above on google images:-
 
 
http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/data/mike%20hamer/200927231218_Granite%20Junction%20and%20woodyard%201%20web.jpg
 
http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/sites/model-railroad-hobbyist.com/files/users/mikeconfalone/Western-Maine-7605-B(2).jpg
 
https://c3.staticflickr.com/7/6022/5937203442_c6eed314ab_b.jpg
 
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/77/0e/72/770e72b44a60ccdf1348ab87d41189bb.jpg

 

http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/data/mike%20hamer/20092723194_Granite%20Junction%20and%20woodyard%204%20web.jpg

 

I appreciate I've gone waaaay off the Pre-grouping topic here, hopefully the quality of the modelling linked to will be excuse enough.

[Poggy1165]

 

 

I'll have to let Edwardian down though, being a limestone plateau there will be no swollen rivers. All the water courses are underground (hence the brief diversion into the troglodyte world of caving). If you look at the map there are no streams at all. This gives rise to the local tradition of the Wakes, these are the blessings of the wells, without which the villages could not survive. Having lived in a Peak village for 10 years they always struck me as being a mixture of pagan festival with the vicar along for the ride (to do the blessing). Great fun though!

 

I can however testify to the quantity of mud and surface water, puddles and mucky snow piled against the dry stone walls (especially on the north side). This is from a decade of mountain biking and running around the Peaks.

 

 It can't half be cold up there in winter too. As I discovered in my teenage years when researching the Leek and Manifold Valley. Hulme End at Easter could be like ice station zebra.

 

The well-dressing provide a nice excuse for excursions though. Maybe even for foreign stock. Didn't take much excuse for an excursion back then.

[Argos]

Hi Poggy,

 

I can still run excursions to the Flagg races so I won't lose out (as well as horse traffic)

The question is where does the foreign stock come from?

 

When operating as a North Staffordshire terminus, I believe Ashbourne was served by carriages from the Midland, MS&L (Great Central) and Great Northern. These carriages where worked through from Uttoxeter by NSR motive power.

So if I modelled the line assuming the through line to Ashbourne had been completed then there are quite a few options. 

The NSR also had running rights to Buxton from Macclesfield so a Knotty excursion would be plausible.

The Midland had its own station at Buxton and could have run trains through to Taddington, albeit with two inconvenient reversals to get form the Midland station onto the Ashbourne line the manoeuvre would be time consuming. 

 

I quite fancy a MS&L excursion but don't know if they could get to Buxton. Would normal running rights apply for an excursion?

 

Still, plenty of options to explore!

[Edwardian]

This is half the joy of pre-Grouping modelling, the number of places where companies intermingled and the frequent through services and coaches from different companies. 

[Argos]

Thanks Simon,

 

it does indeed help.

[Poggy1165]

There were some odd workings where RP did not apply. But in such cases, locos were often, perhaps usually, changed at the boundary. The stock worked through.

 

So in this case, for example you might have a GC excursion from say - Barnsley - worked by a LNWR engine from - maybe Middlewood Junction, or even Manchester. Route knowledge would be one reason - the foreign crew (if they worked through) would need a conductor on the footplate, and maybe a conductor guard.

 

The GC ran excursions to Blackpool, for example, but a L&Y engine (and probably guard) took over at Midland Junction, Manchester.

 

The exceptional case that springs to mind is the GC Atlantic that worked through to Plymouth. The GC definitely did not have RP to Plymouth (I think they did to Oxford) so it must have been done by special arrangement. 

Edited March 12, 2016 by Poggy1165

[Edwardian]

The exceptional case that springs to mind is the GC Atlantic that worked through to Plymouth

 

 

 I hear of this from time to time, do you have any details about when and why this happened, and whose stock was used?  Was this a one off? Did it happen in LNER days?

[Argos]

Not wanting to distract from the useful and interesting discussion regarding running rights and excursion traffic, however, I thought I'd show that I've not just been sat in my modeller's armchair pontificating!
 
I've been focused on finishing the 5' 6" tank chassis.
First up the sand pipes. The instruction only detail the front ones, which are supposed to be fabricated from some brass rod.
This is a bit simplistic when compare to the real thing. There is a large nut half way up the pipe, above which the pipe thickens considerably.
 
So 0.9mm brass rod, some thin tube and a couple of 12BA nuts:-
 

 
the rod was then bent to shape to form the rear sand pipes, this are absent from the instructions but are noticeable sticking out behind the rear driver in photos of the real engines.
 

 
The brake actuating rods are next. First built as per the instructions:-
 
 

 
I wasn't happy with these, I know they are unlikely to be seen in any detail but they don't give the sense of mass behind the wheels that the real brake beams give. Also the actuating mechanism has a large pivot in between the beams which is noticeable in side view photos
 
So, some brake beams were purchased (Laurie Griffin) and the linkages made from brass strip. The pivot was knocked up from a BA screw and washer.
 

 
At least they now look as if they might actually work the brakes!
 
The side view is vastly improved:-
 

 

So, the Chassis is coming on nicely, I've got to finish off the brakes (the pivot beam and the connections to the brake screw and the vacuum tank) and add the gussets behind the buffer beams. I've upgrade the buffers and the nut holding the buffers is bigger then the originals so some work needs to be done to get these to fit.

 

The final bit of detail will be to add the tank supports. These are quite sizeable and riveted to the Chassis directly between the driving wheels. Again, these are visible in side on photos but missing from the kit.

 

Finally I was going to connect up the motor and get it working, but have decided to hold off until I've finished the detailing above and painted the chassis. This will save the frustration of reassembling, what was a working chassis before paint........so you know it should be a working chassis after painting, despite evidence to the contrary!

 

[Poggy1165]

 I hear of this from time to time, do you have any details about when and why this happened, and whose stock was used?  Was this a one off? Did it happen in LNER days?

 

It was in GC days, and done I believe as a publicity stunt. Moreover it was done at least three times. These details are from J G Robinson, A Lifetime's Work by David Jackson.

 

The first occasion was over the weekend of 28-30th October 1904. Atlantic 267 went to Plymouth and back with 5 GC coaches.  The train started from Manchester as the crew were picked Gorton men. 11.30 pm# off Manchester, 9.50 am arrival next day.  The engine had an extra ton of coal (7 tons in all) but apparently no extra was taken on during the journey. A pilotman worked with them from Oxford.

 

# The book says a.m. but I think this must be an error. P.m. fits the journey time quoted and makes more sense. No one could work an engine for the best part of 24 hours.

 

This was repeated on Easter Bank Holiday 1905, but in this case the Atlantic was 265 and worked only from Leicester, another engine (No 1041) bringing the train from Manchester to Leicester. (A 'D9' 4-4-0 I think, without checking.) 

 

Done again in June 1905, with the GC engine working empty stock back from Plymouth and then returning with it to form the return working. Presumably some days later. This time it was 267 again. On the way back, extra coaches (probably GW) were put on between Plymouth and Bristol bringing the load to about 400 tons.

 

This book does not mention it, but on one of these occasions the Atlantic stalled on one the banks due to not having taken a pilot engine. Apparently Robinson told the driver not to worry about it, as it had been 'a good try'.

 

After that 1905 journey, GC engines apparently only went as far as Bristol on similar excursions, though to the best of my knowledge RP ended at Oxford. So some special arrangements must still have been made.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Poggy1165

[runs as required]

A spectacular locomotive exchange in 1909 saw a Brighton superheater I3 tank running the 'Sunny South Express' past Willesden Junction and on north to Rugby - with an LNW 'Precursor' running down to Brighton on alternate days.

"The performance of the tank engine over LNW metals was a source of astonishment to Crewe" (CJ Allen, 'The Locomotive Exchanges 1870-1948' p27)

And the consequence was...

the first of Bowen Cooke's superheater 'George the Fifth' class emerged from Crewe works the following year.

dh

[Buhar]

[quote name="runs as required" post="2236540" timestamp="1457913775"

"The performance of the tank engine over LNW metals was a source of astonishment to Crewe" (CJ Allen,

dh

I very much doubt if Bowen Cooke himself was surprised, he was a very open minded engineer and at the same time trialled with both the GNR and Caley. The I3 excelled in coal consumption and the thing taken away was superheating. Even then CJBC built identical versions of George V class, with and without superheat just to check.

 

Edit to apologise for messing up the quote from dh

Edited March 14, 2016 by Buhar

[pod909]

Unable to find workers wagons in teh Peak...

 

There seems to be one working the Kinder Railway in 1908-1911 during construction of the Kinder dam. There is also a large print works half way up the railway and it would of provided access to higher ground from the station at Hayfield for hikers.

 

[Poggy1165]

`I wonder what the stock was. Whatever it was, it doesn't seem to have any brakes. I wish I could remember where I have seen a photo of one of the engines - IIRC it had 'Stockport Corporation' on a brass plate.

 

As to superheating, you'd have thought it was a no-brainer for mainstream locos. However some companies were never convinced. Not least the Furness, which didn't even fit it to those massive Baltic tanks they had made for them towards the end of the pre-group era. I suppose it cost money and not everyone was convinced that the advantages were worthwhile.

[Edwardian]

What a wonderful picture, pod909.

 

Runs as Required, The Sunny South Special exchanges of 1909 are great for me if I ever build the planned Merstham layout, which has a nominal 1906-1914 setting - thanks

[Argos]

Hi Poggy,

 

the Foxline Scenes from the Past: 45 Manchester London Road to Hayfield book has a clutch of photos near the back of the Kinder Railway.

 

The Stockport Corporation ran 6 (I think) Hudswell Clarkes on the line.

I'm intending to use the photos to back date my Ixion loco.

Lots of rivets required, some new sandboxes above the footplate, a single hinge smokebox door and, most difficult, thicker coupling rods with marine bearings.

 

The plan is to attack it once I've built a few more locos, my fear is at present I would convert a smooth running loco into a lumpy running one!

 

pod909

thanks for the memory jarring!

I should have been more specific in the post, what I was meaning was mainline company workers trains, such as the LNWR ran in the Welsh valleys for the collieries.

Old coaching stock, varnished not painted, was used to run workers trains to match the colliery shifts over the LNWR lines.

For obvious reasons these were not used for general passengers!

The Kinder railway never ran into a "mainline" station, if I recall, the connection into Hayfield station was only used to transfer rolling stock onto the Kinder line. 

Presumably the passenger train just stopped in the street at the other side of the road from the station.

 

Nice picture though, thanks for sharing it.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Argos

[runs as required]

I very much doubt if Bowen Cooke himself was surprised, he was a very open minded engineer and at the same time trialled with both the GNR and Caley. The I3 excelled in coal consumption and the thing taken away was superheating. Even then CJBC built identical versions of George V class, with and without superheat just to check.

 

Actually CJA's full account of CJBW's LNW exchanges has a lot more very interesting stuff about the GN & Caley (the Cardean 4-6-0) exchanges; I 'm ashamed to admit I just 'cherry picked' the eye catching quote.

The point about the Brighton tank was that, for once, on the Norwestern (used to thrashing their small cheapo steeds), it was the smaller engine as opposed to the swops with the bigger GN, Caley and GW costlier locos. Plus it had no water pick-up scoops. So it had to run from E Croydon to Rugby without replenishing its tanks !

 

2

Knowing Hayfield well from school days (up Kinder/Bleaklow a lot of weekends, off the Chapel to Glossop bus).  I can’t place that beautiful photo. That must be the Sett  with the footbridge off Valley Rd in the foreground, but I’ve tried locating the interesting old gritstone 3 storey terrace behind with the mullion windows from the 6” map here. I wonder whether it was actually 6 dwellings with the upper two streys accessed from around the back up the slope.

In New Mills there used to be a few 4 storey terraces similarly accessed on two levels from an upper and a lower street (also along the Sett ). I've seen similar terraces in Holmfirth).

In modern terms that is just where the main footpath up to the Downfall starts off Kinder Road, but the pic imust 40 years before the famous 1932 Kinder Trespass.

 

dh (hope this isn't too far OT on a great thread.)

[Argos]

Run as Required,

 

I'm more than happy for conversations to go wherever the wind takes.

One of the pleasures of creating a topic is to see where the posts take you.

 

I won't always contribute however, Whilst I can admire Bowen Cooke's elegant tapered buffers and superheating I'm more comfortable with Crewe being a place of workmanlike parallel buffers and compounding.........

 

It's just too easy to get distracted.......

Edited March 17, 2016 by Argos

[pod909]

Still trying to discover whether the trains ran into Hayfield station or not. One source says no, another photo (that I've now lost!) seems to have the carriages in a station siding.

 

@runs, I assumed it was the bridge above where the tennis court is now?

 

The garage on this photo from the end of Spring Vale Rd looks to be on the track bed (?)

[Argos]

Hi Pod909,
 
I seem to recall the connection across the road to the Kinder Railway from Hayfield Station joined into one of the goods yard roads and not the platform road.
It would have needed the carriages to be propelled out of the station then pulled back over the connection, or else a run round manoeuvre outside the station limits (I don't think there was a loop to facilitate this.).
To add to complications the connection onto the Kinder railway was up a short steep incline as the road was a higher level.
This would be no problem for shunting empty stock or transferring the odd wagon but would interesting to work with a live passenger train!
 
Back at the workbench I've finished the last bit of detailing on the 5'6" tank chassis.
This is another element missing form the kit. On the real engine there is a tank support between the drivers, this is noticeable because it is formed of heavy plate riveted to the frame.
First I punched some rivets into some brass strip of appropriate width:-
 

 
I'm quite chuffed with the regular pattern I've achieved, I'm using a G.W Models rivet press, so there is no excuse, none the less, I do struggle normally with regular patterns on small pieces.
 
Some arched support pieces where then cut out of some thicker section brass (two pieces soldered together so they are symmetrical on both sides).
 
I struggled the get these soldered in, being lazy I decided not to remove the wheels and coupling rods so there was limited access for the soldering iron. As a result it probably took 4x longer than if I'd just remove the drivers.....oh well!
 
The end result shows the effort to be worthwhile. 
 

 
As you can see not having these support would have been quite noticeable.
 
So that's the chassis complete (apart from pick-ups which I'll install after painting).
Next step is a good clean and out with the spray paint......Hope it's dry over Easter!
 
I've also received some new goodies in advance of the next project.
 
Some Slaters Wheels and a Poppies Woodtech chassis jig.
I was a bit sceptical of these when I first saw them but Tony Wright has raved about them on his topic so I thought I'd give them a go.
I am waiting for a Gladiator Coal tank to arrive and I've not built a six coupled loco yet.
Hopeful these will help render the build painless..........
 
I've also purchased some of Debs O-MF track gauges in case I'm in the mood to start some pointwork for the Taddington branch.  
 

Edited March 19, 2016 by Argos

[Argos]

The 5' 6" chassis was cleaned up and sprayed in the brief sunshine yesterday.
I was hoping to finishing spraying today but I had not accounted for the weather switching back to winter.
 
Instead I took the opportunity to blow the cobwebs off the layout and hold a quick operating session.
All ran well once a couple of dirty track patches were cleaned off.
 
While shunting I realised that I had been neglecting the scenic side of the layout in favour of the rolling stock. 
So I dug out the PVA and pack of DAS clay I bought about 5 years ago to create the cobbled surface in the goods yard.
It is tribute to the quality of DAS's packaging that the clay was still soft and usable!

It was a bit of shock to find I'd bought terracotta coloured clay though hopefully it'll stain and paint the same.
 
This is my first attempt at creating stonework this way so fingers crossed.
 
The coping stones on top of the wall have been placed along with a fair amount of the yard.
I had to stop, I had lost sensation in my feet due to the cold!
So much for Spring!

 

The photos below show the results of just over an hour's work and was quite therapeutic, I wonder if scribing the cobbles and stones will be as quick?   
 

 

[runs as required]

1

I do agree, Das is very satisfactory to work with. Mind, yours at present is looking very red Devonian sandstone rather than white carboniferous limestone.

 

One tip I learnt from my potter daughter-in-law is to chuck hardened, apparently beyond hope dried out clay into a pot/bin of water and it will gradualy return to being workable.

Potters pride themselves on clay being endlessly re-cyclable....until its fired. Threafter it endures down the millennia as the Archaeologist’s friendly informant. 

2

It must be enjoyable jumpng from mechanical to civil engineering and back again as the mood takes you.

 

It reminds me of the story of Jack of all Trades: Thomas Wheatley . After being dismissed as CME from the NBR in October 1874 for financial irregularities at Cowlairs, Wheatley wrote out of the blue offering to operate the parlous  Wigtownshire Railway down the Isle of Whithorn as a hands on family concern.

Wheatley did everything - including deciding to take the railway to 'an unauthorised destination' He died suddenly in the spring of 1883 and his son took over

'The Wheatleys served the little Company well in operating the line with the barest of financial resources' until the end of the line's independent existence in 1885.

dh

[Edwardian]

Chuck Hardened, wasn't he a Hollywood heart-throb of the 1950s?