Mark's workbench - lockdown loco build (page 17)

[Mark Forrest]

Earlier this year I found myself in a reflective mood and spent a bit of time considering where my modelling should take me next. At that point I'd retired Foundry Lane (blue diesels, EM) from the exhibition circuit, didn't have any real need for any more stock for Black Country Blues and was making slow but steady progress on Fryers Lane (sectorisation diesels, P4).

 

After a bit of discussion among my friends in our Staffs Finescale Group and a fair amount of personal reflection I decided that it is making stuff which I enjoy most, in particular rolling stock. Fryers gave me a bit of a taste for the more technical challenges of wagon suspension and working to P4 standards; what I really needed was something that I could get stuck into that would involve plenty of kit building and ultimately that might result in a small layout capable of being operated at home or doing the occasional show. I decided on a change in era away from my diesel comfort-zone for a new challenge and to ensure a need for more kit built stock. I'm sticking with a West Midlands theme (although it would have been in Staffordshire at the time) to model the LNWR goods yard and canal basin at Tipton, in the between the war years - probably shortly after the Grouping. The layout itself is a little while away and I'll start a separate topic for that at some point in the future. At the moment I'll collecting up prototype information and inspiration from books and also familiarising myself with suitable wagon and loco kits.

 

I'm going to be building my first loco kits - starting with a couple of (hopefully) simple 0-6-0Ts and have enrolled for a kit building weekend at Missenden in the spring. Meanwhile I'm adding a few wagons to the fleet. Currently on the workbench is a Cambrian Kits MR van and a 51L NSR open.

 

The van is closest to my comfort zone and built numerous plastic wagon kits over the past few years. Despite only having a 10' wheelbase I've fitted Bill Bedford sprung w-irons, attached to a Palatine Models baseplate. The body has my usual internal bracing to keep it square.

 

The open represents more of a challenge; I've never completed a whitemetal kit before but there are several ranges suited to this period using this material, so it's something I need to get used to! As an open it needs some careful and neat soldering to make the visible corner joints - in hindsight many I should have done a van first. I was quite pleased with how this was going; I don't have a temperature controlled iron, but have been using a dimmer switch to reduce the temperature and this has worked very well. All was going well until I came to fit the axleguard units between the solebars and realised that they wouldn't fit.

Since taking the photo I've dismantled it ready to have another go; all part of the learning curve.

[Spitfire2865]

I would recommend finding some Slaters wagons. They are a simple build but offer plenty of opportunities to modify and improve them. Sadly, they are hard to find.

 

But also look into David Geens range of whitemetal wagons. Very nice selection there.

 

LookIng forward to continued progress.

[Mark Forrest]

Yes, a few of the Slaters kits would be quite useful; will keep an eye on eBay. I have one of David Geen's kits, a LNWR van, I think, but I'm sure there will be others.

[Craigw]

Mark,

 

i would also suggest some of the recent Parkside kits - something like the GWR V12-V16 or the O11 open would have travelled a bit in the mid 1920s. Very easy kits to assemble and look very nice indeed. You have selected a very interesting and seldom modelled period ( I am modelling GWR 1923-1924 ), I look forward to more of it.

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

[Mark Forrest]

Yes, I think that there aren't that many layouts around based in this era is part of the appeal, that and the lack of much RTR stock. I like the idea of pre-grouping stock, but in a slightly shabby run down condition, maybe rubbing shoulders with the first grouping designs.

 

In my initial survey of what kits were around I was surprised how few Parkside kits suited my era, most being post-1930, but as you say a few of the more recent releases will be useful.

 

I'm quite enjoying seeking out a few old kits from second hand stalls and eBay. Like these which I picked up recently at Wolverhampton exhibition.

[Craigw]

I don't know if you have the book or not, but I would highly recommend "The LMS in the west Midlands" by P.B.Whitehouse. It has a fantastic selection of photos from 1923 onwards, with a healthy selection from the early years of the grouping. It is quite interesting to see a number of locos in LMS markings but still having buffer planks lined out LNWR style. I have had this book for years and before I fell under the spell of the GWR I was intending to model somewhere in the area. For reasons I cannot really explain I have always liked Kenilworth Station. Cambrian have a pretty good selection of kits that suit the early grouping years too. The other thing to remember is that the 1907 spec RCH wagons and ones that were 15 and 16' long with brakes on one side were far more common too.

 

Regards

 

Craig

[Mark Forrest]

Thanks for the book recommendation Craig, I'll keep a look out for that one.

You make a good point regarding the RCH spec wagons. I'll need to make sure that 1907 spec ones are more plentiful than 1923. That said, a couple of Bachmann private owners might be my only concession to having some RTR stock on the layout.

[Mark Forrest]

Spent about 6 hours sitting in the car today, so plenty of time to think about wagons.

I realised that, had I been building a plastic kit I would always build up the body, including the floor, before offering up solebars and axleguards - so why didn't I do the same with the NSR open? Should have known better!  anyway, that has now been dismantled to its component parts ready for another attempt, but first I'll reduce the ledge which the solebars locate to so they are further out.  Messy work like that (particularly with whitemetal) is best done out in the garage, so I'm leaving that for another time.

Meanwhile I've assembled the bodies of the LNWR coal and 4 plank open that come as a pair in the Ratio set.  Nice crisp mouldings and have gone together without any fuss or drama.

Next step for these will be to make up a pair of 9' wheelbase underframes.  While suspension/compensation probably isn't really necessary with such a short wheelbase, I think I'll be fitting sprung axleguard units again here; which reminds me I need to order some more.  Also need to source some LNWR style long straight brake levers as the plastic ones supplied look a bit too fragile.

 

 

[Stubby47]

Mark, I'm guessing this is P4, rather than EM ?

 

You weren't tempted to follow Chris into 7mm ?

[Mark Forrest]

Mark, I'm guessing this is P4, rather than EM ?

 

You weren't tempted to follow Chris into 7mm ?

 

I did give the 7mm route some serious thought, but decided that I want the layout (when I eventually build it) that will be interesting to operate while also being a very close (if not exact to scale) representation of a real place.  It would be a struggle to get that in the space I have to play with.  I expect the temptation to build a couple of 7mm wagons will get the better of me at some point though.

 

I thought long and hard about whether to go back to EM or carry on in P4 for this project.  Ultimately I decided that I wouldn't be fully satisfied unless I built it to P4 standards, although that wouldn't stop me popping EM wheelsets in the wagons and giving them a bit of a run on BCB if we wanted to (obviously locos would be more of a challenge).

[Spitfire2865]

Spent about 6 hours sitting in the car today, so plenty of time to think about wagons.

I realised that, had I been building a plastic kit I would always build up the body, including the floor, before offering up solebars and axleguards - so why didn't I do the same with the NSR open? Should have known better!  anyway, that has now been dismantled to its component parts ready for another attempt, but first I'll reduce the ledge which the solebars locate to so they are further out.  Messy work like that (particularly with whitemetal) is best done out in the garage, so I'm leaving that for another time.

Meanwhile I've assembled the bodies of the LNWR coal and 4 plank open that come as a pair in the Ratio set.  Nice crisp mouldings and have gone together without any fuss or drama.

22503128544_0499a544f9_o.jpg

Next step for these will be to make up a pair of 9' wheelbase underframes.  While suspension/compensation probably isn't really necessary with such a short wheelbase, I think I'll be fitting sprung axleguard units again here; which reminds me I need to order some more.  Also need to source some LNWR style long straight brake levers as the plastic ones supplied look a bit too fragile.

While the brake levers seem fragile on the sprue, once glued on, they hold well. Id say use them. Mine work fine.

[Mark Forrest]

While the brake levers seem fragile on the sprue, once glued on, they hold well. Id say use them. Mine work fine.

You must handle your stock more carefully than I do; I'm always breaking them 

 

Thinking I might be able to use the plastic lever, but add an etched lever guide, which should be a bit more durable and will also (hopefully) look a bit better.

[jwealleans]

You can't do better than the interwar period for wagons. Newer standard designs by the Big 4 among a sea of pregrouping relics. I have a particular weakness for outside framed vans, personally. Lots and lots of opens as well, far more than any of us actually have relative to the number of vans.

 

For a real contrast, throw in some continental wagons - much larger and more modern looking than what we weer still building 20 years later.

 

In the 'Goods Wagons in Colour' book (Robert Hendry?) there's a picture of Rugby Yard in 1936 and there are 3 Belgian ferry vans clearly visible in one of the roads.

 

Cambrian's kits, especially the later ones, are very good. David Geen's are also worth looking at and Andrew at 51L is still introducing the odd new wagon. D & S ones if you can find them, of course - London Road have some of the ex-LNWR ones and the GCRS have the GC ones. Bill Bedford also does some nice etched wagons.

 

Falcon Brass do some interesting wagons as well if you don't mind a bit of semi-scratchbuilding.

 

If you get motivated enough to scratchbuild any, I know a man who can resin cast as well....

 

Looking forward to seeing what you do. I was impressed with the BCB stock even though it's all far too modern.

Edited November 19, 2015 by jwealleans

[Spitfire2865]

You must handle your stock more carefully than I do; I'm always breaking them 

 

Thinking I might be able to use the plastic lever, but add an etched lever guide, which should be a bit more durable and will also (hopefully) look a bit better.

Well I am a bit nervous about breaking things. Though even then, shouldnt be an issue. But etched does look better, im just cheap and lazy.

[bill badger]

An interesting read so far. I'm targeting a slightly later time period - late 20's to late 30's LMS, if only avoid be too much in a straight-jacket and keep the option of earlier, pre-grouping stock or later Big 4 depending on the mood for a given session. It is nice to have to rely on developing skills to get a good variety of stock.

 

From what I've built so far I have noticed that, even with 9 ft wheel bases, suspended wagons are noticeably smoother, even on good track. 'Bill Bedford sprung W-irons' is the only system I've tried so far. I do find them a bit of a fiddle. Can I ask what method you use to accommodate the suspension  movement in the axle boxes?

Edited November 19, 2015 by bill badger

[Mark Forrest]

You can't do better than the interwar period for wagons. Newer standard designs by the Big 4 among a sea of pregrouping relics. I have a particular weakness for outside framed vans, personally. Lots and lots of opens as well, far more than any of us actually have relative to the number of vans.

 

For a real contrast, throw in some continental wagons - much larger and more modern looking than what we weer still building 20 years later.

 

In the 'Goods Wagons in Colour' book (Robert Hendry?) there's a picture of Rugby Yard in 1936 and there are 3 Belgian ferry vans clearly visible in one of the roads.

 

Cambrian's kits, especially the later ones, are very good. David Geen's are also worth looking at and Andrew at 51L is still introducing the odd new wagon. D & S ones if you can find them, of course - London Road have some of the ex-LNWR ones and the GCRS have the GC ones. Bill Bedford also does some nice etched wagons.

 

Falcon Brass do some interesting wagons as well if you don't mind a bit of semi-scratchbuilding.

 

If you get motivated enough to scratchbuild any, I know a man who can resin cast as well....

 

Looking forward to seeing what you do. I was impressed with the BCB stock even though it's all far too modern.

 

Yes, a bit tempted to do a bit of scratchbuilding at some point, have dabble in a little resin casting myself so that has some possibilities.  I had forgotten about that photo in the Hendry book, it does sum up the contrast between old and new very well, not sure I had spotted the ferry vans before; interesting...

 

An interesting read so far. I'm targeting a slightly later time period - late 20's to late 30's LMS, if only avoid be too much in a straight-jacket and keep the option of earlier, pre-grouping stock or later Big 4 depending on the mood for a given session. It is nice to have to rely on developing skills to get a good variety of stock.

 

From what I've built so far I have noticed that, even with 9 ft wheel bases, suspended wagons are noticeably smoother, even on good track. 'Bill Bedford sprung W-irons' is the only system I've tried so far. I do find them a bit of a fiddle. Can I ask what method you use to accommodate the suspension  movement in the axle boxes?

Thanks.  Yes, I've fairly convinced there is a benefit from springing even on short wheelbase stuff too.  I've used some MJT compensated axleguard units in the past but have never really been comfortable with the gap needed to allow them to move.  For most of the sprung stock (for this project and also the more modern stuff that runs on Fryers and BCB)  I've used waisted bearings with the ends filed down a little to make them as small as possible, then opened up the hole in the back of the axlebox as big as I dare, ideally angling the drill bit to form a slot.  I do have one van where I used standard bearings and fitted the axleboxes to these with a gap between them and the springs.  It worked ok and it is quite nice to see the axlebox move as it travels.  I'll take a few photos of the next one I do.

[bill badger]

If you do get a chance to post some pictures that would be very interesting. I'd like to see just how much opening up other folk can get away with. I think taking way too much away. I have some MJT compensated rockers to try and I know many folk say the gap isn't that obvious. Can I ask who your supplier of choice is for axle boxes (generally - I appreciate it might vary depending on the model)? I've had some trouble getting MJT unit to fit with Bill Bedford w-irons and have messed a few up try to file them down (not that I'd expect them to be completely compatible of course).

[Mark Forrest]

A couple of quick photos that might be of interest. Firstly, using waisted rather than normal bearings makes a big difference on how much material needs to be removed from the axleboxes:

 

I'll post a better pic next time I'm doing one, but this view of the MR van gives an idea of how much I've removed.

 

Axleboxes and springs here are MJT, I like the ones with integral springs best as the I find them easier to fix in place because of the larger surface area.

 

Worth mentioning that on some of my EM wagons for BCB I've used the plastic spring and axleboxes from the kit, simply filing the rear of the solebar/axleguard until only the spring and box remain.

[bill badger]

Very useful, thank you. I think I just need to practice a bit more!

[Mark Forrest]

I don't know if you have the book or not, but I would highly recommend "The LMS in the west Midlands" by P.B.Whitehouse. It has a fantastic selection of photos from 1923 onwards...

It's Saturday night, so I go down the pub, on the way home I get an e-mail from eBay; before I know it, I've bought said book...

[Craigw]

It's Saturday night, so I go down the pub, on the way home I get an e-mail from eBay; before I know it, I've bought said book...

 

I am fairly, no, very confident that you will like this book a great deal. It really is a brilliant album.

 

Craig W 

[Mark Forrest]

A bit more progress with the LNWR coal wagon from the Ratio kit. Firstly the axleguards were folded up in front of the TV on Friday night. Saturday evening I grabbed a few minutes to solder them up and add lengths of 0.6mm wire to aid alignment.


These then had a quick bath in my ultrasonic cleaner (new toy), before being dunked in some Carr's metal black.


Once the bearing carriers were added I set the wheelbase using a Brassmasters jig and the alignment holes in the Palatine base plate. Rear faces of the solebars needed a light file to reduce their thickness a little.


At this stage it is very light (16g) so I need to get some weight in it. Also the bearing carriers on one axle aren't moving as freely as I'd like them to, so there is a bit if tweaking to do before springs, axleboxes and brakes.

[wagonbasher]

You can buy the slaters PO open planked wagons (several to choose from) from POW sides as plain unpainted without wheels

 

Andy

[Mark Forrest]

You can buy the slaters PO open planked wagons (several to choose from) from POW sides as plain unpainted without wheels

 

Andy

Which reminds me, I have one of his pre-lettered kits to assemble.

It is probably more the Midland wagons from the Slaters range which I'm missing. Think there was an outside framed van and that little brake van too? I think the RCH private owners are pretty well covered by Cambrian and Parkside - but I'm yet to really get into the detail of who does what on these.

[wagonbasher]

there are a couple of outside frame vans  8T and 10T I think.  and many of the slaters wagons are lower capacity, prior to the RCH 1923 standard

 

Andy