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Andy Y

Locomotion announce prototype HST

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"serious modeller" is a fairly well used, if subjective, term. I have used it several times to differentiate different groups of people that I perceive exist- such as (at extremities) the rivet counters compared to those who think tension locks are the peak of finesse. Neither are right or wrong.

 

I think it is quite natural for people to compare one make to another- indeed, if they didn't then there would be precious little incentive for a maker to improve to better their rivals.

 

Equally, I think it is fair to say that we all have our bugbears- we will accept glaring errors (according to others) in one class and yet not let the slightest little thing escape our attention in other classes. If we want such threads to exist at all then we have to accept that we aren't all going to agree (and I am as guilty as the next on that point).

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It's perfectly legitimate to criticise another manufacturer if their quality control in their recent releases of the only available Mk3 coach has been less than the quality control for their parallel steam era coaches. Hornby's attitude towards quality and accuracy in their most recent post 1968 releases has been mixed and perfunctory and given the run of foul ups - the 4-VEP, the Mk2e and recent releases of the Mk3s - indicates an attitude that is markedly different to the quality control and attention paid to their steam outline models. One mistake you could accept but there appears to be an attitude of "that'll do" for anyone modelling anything in BR blue onwards - and I don't apologise for calling such a lackadaisical attitude and difference in quality between their modern and steam products snotty.

 

That's why I hope Locomotion and Rapido DO make the Mk3 coaches to go with this announcement, because I don't believe Hornby will make a revised Mk3, they didn't run in pre-nationalisation liveries and they are clearly concentrating the majority of their resources on steam collectable models, but if they did, they'd probably make a mess of it like they did with the Mk2e. I don't criticise Hornby for the quality of their steam stuff, just their recent lack of attention to some of their very few D+E releases.

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The other problem is that people are still buying the MK3s as is, so why would Hornby make any changes. The Class 91 and MK4s are another example and look at the amount of notes they expect people to shell out for the VTEC set !! 

Edited by thebritfarmer

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As someone who is in the above pic do I get a discount? :mosking: If only I was that thin now 40 years later!

 

attachicon.gifpost-9992-0-78390000-1403687242_thumb.jpg

 

How can I not order a full set?

 

Mike Wiltshire

You know you want one!!!!

   Ah, Swindon when you could park lineside and take shots!

    I remember that perm!!!

                  Chris Pakes.

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The problem with the idea of serious modelling is that it is a very relative concept. To a fine scale scratch builder a kit builder may seem lightweight, kit builders may see those who convert and detail RTR as not really serious whilst detailers may write others of as box openers without considering that some box openers are wonderful scenic modellers or operate complex layouts with a degree of precision and fidelity to prototypical practice that entitles them to be considered serious modellers. And ultimately I find the idea of serious modelling odd as to me it is supposed to be fun. I have a whale of a time playing with the train set me and the boy have been building up since last Christmas, it is a toy set up for play value but it is great fun. I think passionate modeller is a better term.

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A mere thought ...it rapido don't produce any mk3's....doesn't that then encourage railway modelling !!!

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A mere thought ...it rapido don't produce any mk3's....doesn't that then encourage railway modelling !!!

Not making the powers cars encourages it too  :jester:

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I would in my opinion say that there is no reason why HST powercars would not manage as a 12 car set if you mean it in the sense of 2 powercars and 10 Mk3s because they currently operate as 2 powercars and 7 or 8 Mk3s on most First Great Western now GWR services and over on the east coast in GNER and National Expresse East Coast they ran as 2 powercars and 9 Mk3s by adding either another First or Standard Class coach into the sets and they ran at 125 mph all day everyday.

Although Kings Cross might not have enough platform length to accommodate a 2 + 10 Mk3 set there is no reason why it could not happen. It is possible that stations on other HST operated lines would maybe require lengthening to enable such operation but the possibilities are all there.

Would there be an issue with braking distances? It's fine powering up, but wouldn't additional brake force be needed?

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Coach brakes are much better than locomotive brakes, so the longer the train gets the shorter the stopping distance becomes. I think that the shortest train a 125 is allowed for 125mph running is five trailers, as below that there is insufficient brake power.

 

It is pretty much the same story for all locomotives, for 100mph running I think a Deltic needed at least six coaches in tow, light engine it was not supposed to exceed 60mph.

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Leaving aside the problem of braking, did not the Western men take the 2+7s up to 140 m.p.h. until speed limiters were fitted?


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Would there be an issue with braking distances? It's fine powering up, but wouldn't additional brake force be needed?

No it's actually the opposite, way round shorter trains are not allowed to run at 125 Mph

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There is some history to this set. Briefly it (power cars) ran as a 41xxx series as 12 car set.

 

2 coaches were quickly (like 5 years later) stolen for the Royal Train and it was decided that this would be a DMU. So everything became 43xxx.

 

So you have:

The original 12 car set - 2 power cars, 4 TF, 4 TS, 1 TRSB, 1 TRUK

The later 10 car - as above but missing 1TF and 1TS

Then fast forward, 1 preserved power car

 

So options:

The preserved power car alone is an obvious candidate

 

Thereafter, do they sell full 10 or 12 car sets?

Or pairs of power cars with individual coaches?

Or 4 car pack (powered units plus TF and TS) with all other units sold separately? All at once or spread over say 3 years?

 

 

In 1975, when running in passenger service on the WR the formation was 7+2 - DMB+TF+TF+TRSB+TS+TRUK+TS+TS+DMB. That would be a reasonable option I would have thought. 5 separate moulds and punters could drop trailers/restaurants to make 4+2 or 5+2  sets if needed.

 

http://www.projectmiller.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Protype-HST-on-Weston-Super-Mare-Paddington-train-at-Didcot-02-07-75-Robin-Patrick-4.jpg

 

2331274764_2f653ef1d7_b.jpgMaiden voyage by Stephen Dowle, on Flickr

 

6970550084_e125b27525_b.jpgBristol-bound by Kevin Lane, on Flickr

Edited by stovepipe
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The problem with the idea of serious modelling is that it is a very relative concept. To a fine scale scratch builder a kit builder may seem lightweight, kit builders may see those who convert and detail RTR as not really serious whilst detailers may write others of as box openers without considering that some box openers are wonderful scenic modellers or operate complex layouts with a degree of precision and fidelity to prototypical practice that entitles them to be considered serious modellers. And ultimately I find the idea of serious modelling odd as to me it is supposed to be fun. I have a whale of a time playing with the train set me and the boy have been building up since last Christmas, it is a toy set up for play value but it is great fun. I think passionate modeller is a better term.

Or even, a contented modeller. It is easy to compare oneself with others, and become vain or bitter. The hobby is so broad, happiness will come in different ways for different people. For me I'd be very pleased to achieve a uniform standard in the things I make.

Anyway, there's a diversion until we learn more about the Locomotion model!

- Richard.

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If the coaches are to be produced we need to add a Mark 1 buffet to the list as the Mark 3 buffet came out after the HSDT started testing in 1973 see http://www.traintesting.com/images/Test%20run%20-%20early%20days.jpg or for more info http://www.traintesting.com/HST_prototype.htm

 

Can someone uploaded some clear images of the Warley stand so we can see the livery options shown on the banners? Thanks in advance.

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If the coaches are to be produced we need to add a Mark 1 buffet to the list as the Mark 3 buffet came out after the HSDT started testing in 1973 see http://www.traintesting.com/images/Test%20run%20-%20early%20days.jpg or for more info http://www.traintesting.com/HST_prototype.htm

 

Can someone uploaded some clear images of the Warley stand so we can see the livery options shown on the banners? Thanks in advance.

 

I'm hoping for a Mk1 Buffet too but if they don't do it i'm quite happy to modify and spray a Bachmann one :)

 

As for livery options, since they have only said that there will be powercars and that they want to do coaches they haven't announced anything else about it because they are still finalising stuff with Locomotion before making any decisions public so i'd say the pictures on the board were just to show a variation of possibilities and not show what they were actually doing.

 

Personally i'm hoping for as released livery and the uglier fuller yellow cab for RTC working too :)

 

Best picture though is on the APT-E thread - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/87114-the-official-rapido-apt-e-thread/?p=2108117

Edited by 37081LochLong
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The HSDT was never designed to run as a 2+10. The extra coaches were built as spares.

 

As for braking, HSDT was revolutionary by having E70 brake control units and through 36 way wiring which meant the brakes were applied from both ends simultaneously which allowed it to stop from 125mph in the same distance a conventional loco hauled train could stop from 100mph thus faster running was allowed under conventional signalling.

 

The prototype Mk3s were very different beasts to both what became conventional loco hauled Mk3s and production HST Mk3s so if Rapido were to do stock to go with the power cars they would be very innacurate to run as any other type of Mk3. For this reason when the production fleets came along the prototype train vehicles were dispersed to other uses being heavily rebuilt as either Royal Train vehicles, test vehicles or later still being converted as extra HST vehicles. Even now, the former prototype trailers are significantly different from any other Mk3 coach and stand out like the proverbial sore thumb!

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The HSDT was never designed to run as a 2+10. The extra coaches were built as spares.

 

As for braking, HSDT was revolutionary by having E70 brake control units and through 36 way wiring which meant the brakes were applied from both ends simultaneously which allowed it to stop from 125mph in the same distance a conventional loco hauled train could stop from 100mph thus faster running was allowed under conventional signalling.

 

The prototype Mk3s were very different beasts to both what became conventional loco hauled Mk3s and production HST Mk3s so if Rapido were to do stock to go with the power cars they would be very innacurate to run as any other type of Mk3. For this reason when the production fleets came along the prototype train vehicles were dispersed to other uses being heavily rebuilt as either Royal Train vehicles, test vehicles or later still being converted as extra HST vehicles. Even now, the former prototype trailers are significantly different from any other Mk3 coach and stand out like the proverbial sore thumb!

Further to the above the East Coast 2+8 sets were meant to have originally been equipped with uprated 2500hp Valentas.

 

In the end for various reasons (including standardisation and reliability issues) this never happened.

 

Therefore the East Coast 2+8 sets had to be worked disproportionately harder to reach 125mph even on level track whereas the original 2+7 Western Region sets could be eased back a bit.

 

More so with the current 2+9 formation though I believe the VP185's/MTU's provide a nominal amount of extra power despite being rated at the same 2250hp.

Edited by jonathan452

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More so with the current 2+9 formation though I believe the VP185's/MTU's provide a nominal amount of extra power despite being rated at the same 2250hp.

 

From what I recall the limitation on HST power output was the cooling system. The new engines are more efficient and produce less heat, so in theory can be safely run at 2,500bhp without overtaxing the cooling system.

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The limiting factor on the HST is the electrical systems and nothing to do with engine type or cooler group. The alternator, rectifier and traction motors all have limiting factors which means that 2250 flywheel BHP at 1500 rpm is where things need to be so there is no real difference between a Valenta, VP185 or MTU fitted power car.

 

BR did trial the Mirrlees engine at 2400 BHP which led to a major rectifier fire and subsequent downrate back to 2250 BHP.

 

The MTU is actually an 1800 rpm engine downrated to 1500 rpm. Running it at 1800 rpm would cause all sorts of kerfuffles both mechanically with the alternator and electrically with just about everything!!!

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I was led to believe that for a record breaking attempt the governors were screwed down to bring them to full power- far in excess of their optimum design rating- and that the unit suffered no ill effects afterwards; of course a one-off is different to running them like that day-in-day-out.

 

I do believe that although the run took place on the ECML they borrowed some West Country power cars for the test run as they were deemed to be in better condition- though that might well be just depot bravado.

 

Earlier you mentioned that the MK3 carriages were substantially different. Do you have a comprehensive list for variations? I am stuck with buffers, hand rails, roof vents, WSP boxes on the bogie, MWay jumpers, ETH jumpers slightly different and that on the original standard blue and white livery, for some odd reason the white stripe was painted at a different height between HST and LHCS versions.

 

I am assuming the underframe was different due to the MA unit and IIRC there was a half circle with a light on it indicating the status of the MA itself.

 

My Dad did have an engineers book for HST and MK3s but it seems he must have thrown them all out when he retired (I am a sad case that reads these sort of things).

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I would in my opinion say that there is no reason why HST powercars would not manage as a 12 car set if you mean it in the sense of 2 powercars and 10 Mk3s because they currently operate as 2 powercars and 7 or 8 Mk3s on most First Great Western now GWR services and over on the east coast in GNER and National Expresse East Coast they ran as 2 powercars and 9 Mk3s by adding either another First or Standard Class coach into the sets and they ran at 125 mph all day everyday.

 

Although Kings Cross might not have enough platform length to accommodate a 2 + 10 Mk3 set there is no reason why it could not happen. It is possible that stations on other HST operated lines would maybe require lengthening to enable such operation but the possibilities are all there.

Platform length would not be the only major stumbling block, its all the ancillary stuff like fuelling points and the like which where designed for a specific set up/unit length.

 

 

It is pretty much the same story for all locomotives, for 100mph running I think a Deltic needed at least six coaches in tow, light engine it was not supposed to exceed 60mph.

Light engine speeds and trains made up of less than 5 coaches, where updated in the late 80's to "line speed below 90MPH--60MPH". Line speed above 90MPH--75MPH. Before that the speeds for light engines and trains made up of less than 5 coaches, was more complicated. Line speed up to 75MPH--60MPH, line speed up to 80 MPH--65MPH, line speed up to 85MPH--70MPH, line speed 90MPH and above--75MPH.

 

 

Addendum: Talking to an old colleague, he reminded me that originally it was loco + 3 coaches had to run at light engine speeds. It was changed to loco + 5 when they simplified the light engine speeds.

 

Paul J.

 

(Edited to add new information).

Edited by Swindon 123

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Earlier you mentioned that the MK3 carriages were substantially different. Do you have a comprehensive list for variations? I am stuck with buffers, hand rails, roof vents, WSP boxes on the bogie, MWay jumpers, ETH jumpers slightly different and that on the original standard blue and white livery, for some odd reason the white stripe was painted at a different height between HST and LHCS versions.

 

I am assuming the underframe was different due to the MA unit and IIRC there was a half circle with a light on it indicating the status of the MA itself.

 

 

I don't have a comprehensive list but the differences are many, as well as those you've already mentioned the prototypes have steps on all four corners, production on just two. Saloon window frames are different. The underframes under the valences are totally different but this would not affect a model, I've never really studied the actually differences from a visual point of view.

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Has anyone heard anything about when we can order?

We're due a Locomotion monthly newsletter imminently I believe - Here's hoping....!

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