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High Speed Diesel Train (HSDT) - The Story continues


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Of course if you're REALLY short of layout room you could only run both Power Cars together, but to be authentic you'd be limited to maybe 15-20 mph and you'd have to take the Joint Module off.   :D

 

lzn1d9.jpg

 

That's me in the yellow crash hat by the way, says he big-headedly..... :D

 

xETqSc.jpg

 

These were taken on Nov 11th 2004 when we were moving the Power Cars across the ECML to the Thrall Works to load them onto Moveright's road trailers.

Looks like one of the boilers had been fired up as well!

 

Cheers

 

Shane

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  • 3 weeks later...

So now that Bachmann have announced the 6 car Pullman in western region grey / blue at just over 800 beer tokens from the box shifters can we please have the prototype HST program running again?

but the Blue Pullman is less of a risk, it is already in existence with a small tool change for the cab front, whereas the HST is starting from nought.

 

It wouldn't surprise me if Bachmann hasn't already recouped it's investment on the BP and is now making hay.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Much like UK electrification projects the Rapido HSDT is 'paused' indefinitely - Rapido / the NRM are quite clear that the HSDT in ANY gauge will not go forward until such time as the Pound regains the strength it lost in the financial markets thanks to the UK voters decision to leave the EU.

 

OK so we may have 'got back our freedom' - but when that means everything from food to clothes and consumer goods to model trains costs us significantly to buy as a result, its hardly the 'victory' some seem to think it is. The phrase "Be careful what you wish for" has never been more apt when it comes to Brexit.

 

That's not fair to say though.

 

The problem isn't that we're leaving the EU, it's the time it's taking us and the way the government is handling it.

 

Nobody knows what will happen when we leave.  It could make us really strong.  But it could keep us where we are now.  There's so much opinion that it's a terrible thing but until a few years after we've left, that can't be judged.

 

As for pausing "indefinitely" - that's just a modern day marketing term for cancelled.  Perhaps more descriptive yes, but if there's no plans to continue the development, it could be paused for 100 years so you may as well just say it's cancelled.

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While the negotiations are going on, the pound moves all over the place, sudden sharp drops with gradual recovery. I don't think it will gain its strength it had prior to Brexit (it was unexceptionally high), but it should stabalise once the discussion and changes are over.

 

When costing this project out, stability is required.

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Or it could be priced in Canadian dollars and let the customer take the currency risk rather than Rapido. If that makes it commercially attractive to Rapido then why not? The currency experts among us can decide when to purchase their own Canadian dollars.

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So now that Bachmann have announced the 6 car Pullman in western region grey / blue at just over 800 beer tokens from the box shifters can we please have the prototype HST program running again?

 

 

I would have thought that Hornby / Oxford are in a pretty strong place for the prototype.

Surely the prototype power cars provided the same underpinnings for the production series - same wheelbase same bogies etc ? Maybe different fuel tanks and battery boxes etc. Obviously a new bodyshell, but is it that much of a job for Hornby to backengineer ? Strikes me that a collective of modellers need to pledge a minimum number of models bought to Hornby / Oxford to guarantee sales. Admittedly it isn't how Hornby normally do business but surely someone can have a constructive chat with Simon K and present the proposal. He would presumably know who to talk to in the current Hornby regime.  

 

EDIT - apologies that this is the Rapido Trains thread

Edited by Covkid
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  • 7 months later...
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So with the (excellent) Stirling Single now released, does anyone reckon there's hope this project might get resurrected? Has any more been said on the matter?

 

Nothing more has been said by Rapido or the NRM - but why should they?

 

Last time I looked the UK was still going to leave the EU next March - and THATS ultimately the reason the whole project has been paused. The leavers can bitch and moan all they like but ultimately they threw a massive spanner in the works when they 'won' the referendum and the continued squabbling between various 'hard' and 'soft' factions leaves me with zero confidence it will end well regardless of what Mersers Rees Mogg, Johnson & Redwood may say. Rapido, like quite a lot of other business probably increasingly feel the same

 

Rapido like many others cannot make firm plans when we have no idea what is going happen to the UK economy, or more importantly the movements of the financial markets after next March - they need stability and unfortunately the UK electorate decided they preferred a rollercoaster ride into the unknown fuelled by jingoistic soundbites and lies about the EU compared to sticking with the status quo.

Edited by phil-b259
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Nothing more has been said by Rapido or the NRM - but why should they?

 

Last time I looked the UK was still going to leave the EU next March - and THATS ultimately the reason the whole project has been paused. The leavers can bitch and moan all they like but ultimately they threw a massive spanner in the works when they 'won' the referendum and the continued squabbling between various 'hard' and 'soft' factions leaves me with zero confidence it will end well regardless of what Mersers Rees Mogg, Johnson & Redwood may say. Rapido, like quite a lot of other business probably increasingly feel the same

 

Rapido like many others cannot make firm plans when we have no idea what is going to the UK economy, or more importantly the movements of the financial markets after.next March - they need stability and unfortunately the UK electorate decided they preferred a rollercoaster ride into the unknown fuelled by jingoistic soundbites and lies about the EU compared to sticking with the status quo.

 

 

I agree, after the success of the Stirling, Locomotion should take confidence (aside from logistics). The Class 41 will be a cheaper model to produce.

 

If the doom and gloom of Brexit comes true, foreign holidays will be much more difficult etc, leading to much more money to spend on models! And if there are fewer jobs, even more time and demand for models and increase in nostalgia. Its a win win win really, and I don't see why the project was paused.

 

Plus AS A GOVERNMENT ENTITY, LOCOMOTION MODELS SHOULD BE PROMOTING THE ECONOMY AND CONSUMER CONFIDENCE, NOT GIVING INTO PROJECT FEAR.

I think people should be writing to their MP and demand a change in leadership of the commissioning entity and demanding this model. Nowhere during the referendum did anyone say that special commission models would be at risk, and as voters we MUST NOT STAND FOR THIS!

 

Anyway, everthing will be fine. We've been promised its all going to sort itself out. So come on Locomotion/Rapido, what are you waiting for.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/20/liam-fox-uk-eu-trade-deal-after-brexit-easiest-human-history

 

And if its not produced, I presume there are some professional modelmakers within the 52% of the Brexit-voting electorate who will build me a Class 41 for the price of a Rapido model. Please PM me. I look forward to expressions of interest and example of past work to the quality of Rapido's Stirling.

 

Toodles

 

Alpha Fox!!!

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Last time I looked the UK was still going to leave the EU next March - and THATS ultimately the reason the whole project has been paused.

Which doesn't really add up.

 

Rapido stated the rise in exchange rates as the reason - so are they pausing ALL projects? NO! It seems it's just this one (although don't quote me on that). Interesting that since their announcement, the pound has been fairly stable, although admittedly it has dropped 5 against the euro during 2018.

 

There's something more to this than leaving the EU, which is a scapegoat for everything these days.

 

I know Bachmann seem to take 5+ years for relatively small changes to their models (*cough* Class 158) but since the project was announced (2015?), they could have had it done and out by now.

I understand the Stirling "took up design time" but come on... Look at the time it's taking Rapido and Model Rail to produce the J70, not long in comparison considering it was announced after the HSDT and will arrive before it, to a fairly equal standard.

 

Rapido even said themselves that by Warley 2017, it would be poor show not to have something of the HSDT to display. Indeed.

 

It's a good example that you shouldn't announce anything until it's arrived in unpainted samples.

 

I wonder if the lasting bad PR will have caused more hurt than a possible financial hit.

 

I also wonder if it's Locomotion that pushed this rather than Rapido.

Edited by Sir TophamHatt
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One one hand Rapido and the NRM cannot know how the BREXIT will play out. It might have remained stable for the past year  or so but March is several months away.

 

On the other hand, the objective was the entire train with a Rapido spin off on normal Mk 3s. Oxfordrail's torpedoed that idea. Remember many/most people wanted the entire train.  Since the APT-E, a 4 car train that was just over £200, we have seen the Blue Pullman asking for cir £700+ and a 14 car APT-P at just under a £1000 if paid now or £1300 if paid later. A 12 car HST prototype will now cost how much? Probably the best part of £1000, which in my case rules me out for an entire train (that would be something of white elephant on my layout) and limits my choice to just one power car (can be run with a plain HST as per the odd occasion in preservation).

 

I guess a review post March 2019 will decide whether or not to go ahead and in what form. Financially the NRM could do just the power cars and the coaches later IF there are enough people buying both power cars (now likely to be at least £400) vs those buying just one car (whom are unlikely to buy the coaches).

 

It is really a complex question to answer and market right now.

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Which doesn't really add up.

 

Rapido stated the rise in exchange rates as the reason - so are they pausing ALL projects? NO! It seems it's just this one (although don't quote me on that). Interesting that since their announcement, the pound has been fairly stable, although admittedly it has dropped 5 against the euro during 2018.

 

There's something more to this than leaving the EU, which is a scapegoat for everything these days.

 

I know Bachmann seem to take 5+ years for relatively small changes to their models (*cough* Class 158) but since the project was announced (2015?), they could have had it done and out by now.

I understand the Stirling "took up design time" but come on... Look at the time it's taking Rapido and Model Rail to produce the J70, not long in comparison considering it was announced after the HSDT and will arrive before it, to a fairly equal standard.

 

Rapido even said themselves that by Warley 2017, it would be poor show not to have something of the HSDT to display. Indeed.

 

It's a good example that you shouldn't announce anything until it's arrived in unpainted samples.

 

I wonder if the lasting bad PR will have caused more hurt than a possible financial hit.

 

I also wonder if it's Locomotion that pushed this rather than Rapido.

 

Rapido have said that the only reason they went ahad with the N gauge Pendalino in partnership with revolution trains was the project was so advanced it would have cost them more to stop it then carry on. As it was the movements on the currency markets post the EU referendum wiped out the profit margin and effectively meant Rapido made a loss on the product.

 

The Sterling single is a slightly different beast - its a single loco that can quite easily be displayed on its own. While Rapido could just produce a prototype HST power car on its own, without highly detailed Mk3s to go with them there is a very real question mark of how many would sell.

 

With things like the J70 or the Dynamometer car the people being financially exposed to the consequences of money market moves or the UK economy are the owners of Model Rail magazine and Rails of Sheffield. In both cases Rapido is acting as the manufacturer and the items don't sell or rise in price then its Model Rail Magazine / Rails of Sheffield that take the financial hit..

 

You also need to remember that at present the situation is much like the early months of WW2 - Things may have remained fairly stable and the predictions of doom have not yet been fulfilled - however just as the predicted heavy bombing of civilian areas did eventually arrive in late 1940 (rather than in the Autumn of 1939 as many predicted), only a complete fool would assume that the currency markets are not going to be subjected to further turbulence, or that the economy might well run into trouble come April next year - particularly as the Westminster Politicians cannot seemingly agree on exactly what sort of Brexit deal they want.

 

In other words just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't prove it won't happen in 6months time...

 

Please remember that Rapido was set up to produce models of American / Canadian prototypes NOT British ones and being a very small enterprise is entirely justified in gambling on everything turning out hunky dory post next March. If it does and by some miracle the UK emerges with no adverse economic effects and the money markets play ball then Rapido might well take another look at the project - the experience of the APT-E shows that there is a market for things like the HSDT, but for it to happen the financial figures and economic performance / money markets must be stable enough for it to turn a decent profit for Rapido.

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You also need to remember that at present the situation is much like the early months of WW2 .....

 

Oh - come on !! That's got to be the over-statement of the year !!

 

Both the UK and the EU have too many of their financial interests at stake to allow Brexit to get too far out of hand.

 

We are now at the 'who will blink first' stage - which may indeed continue right up to next Spring's deadline.

 

Even if there is a theoretical No Deal exit, you can be absolutely certain that there are too many vested interests, on both sides, to let a financial situation develop where trade, and more pertinently, profit and dividends, take a dive.

 

Yours cynically,

John Isherwood.

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Even if there is a theoretical No Deal exit, you can be absolutely certain that there are too many vested interests, on both sides, to let a financial situation develop where trade, and more pertinently, profit and dividends, take a dive.

A No Deal Brexit means that the vested interests have been completely ignored and there is no deal to protect them no matter how vested they might be...

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Apparently the APT-E did take 3 months to assemble instead of 1. On the other hand, this model does not require a whole load of under frame bits which is generally Rapido's trade mark which probably helped to maintain some cost.

 

 Even then, how many will buy the full train?

 

Not me for one, I'd be after modelling the preserved set, so HSDT plus the 3 or 4 coaches that they are putting together and maybe an original livery HST at the other end - depends on what they are planning at Ruddington.

 

I'd buy a HSDT power car on it's own tomorrow. I'm sure the current Hornby dummy HST is up to scratch and coaches can be repainted etc ;)

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It's situations like these that I'm surprised someone hasn't got in on the 3D printing business.

Much like Hurst models' detailling kits. I bet you could change an HST into an acceptable representation of the HSDT with the right front end kit.

 

While still new, I would have thought 3D printing would have been a bit quicker in it's take up by now.

 

 

 

... the objective was the entire train with a Rapido spin off on normal Mk 3s. Oxfordrail's torpedoed that idea.

With MK3a's?

Which are quite different to an HST rake of MK3s?

And the MK3a's that have the community divided as they don't fit with what locos are supposed to run them?

 

Still much space in the market for new MK3 coaches.

 

I still think a decent way to gauge interest is to use something like Kickstarter.

Work out how much it will cost, set the target and allow people to pledge with good stretch goals.

Edited by Sir TophamHatt
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I think it would sell as a "train", if produced to a reasonable price for the high level specification.  At the time when Rapido queried its viability, it should have been costed, and modellers given the option of "yay" or "nay".  By postponing it - all thats happening is, prices will rise further over time.

 

Regards,

 

C.

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It's situations like these that I'm surprised someone hasn't got in on the 3D printing business.

Much like Hurst models' detailling kits. I bet you could change an HST into an acceptable representation of the HSDT with the right front end kit.

 

While still new, I would have thought 3D printing would have been a bit quicker in it's take up by now.

 

 

 

With MK3a's?

Which are quite different to an HST rake of MK3s?

And the MK3a's that have the community divided as they don't fit with what locos are supposed to run them?

 

Still much space in the market for new MK3 coaches.

 

I still think a decent way to gauge interest is to use something like Kickstarter.

Work out how much it will cost, set the target and allow people to pledge with good stretch goals.

 

I think Rapido's plans was to the entire Mk 3 family (prototype, HST, loco hauled). While different, there is fair commonality between them. Once Oxford announced theirs, it was no longer interesting tooling up just prototypes or tooling costs would have fallen entirely under the NRM instead of being shared.

 

Once Oxford announced them, no one could have predicted back then how they were going to turn out nor how the community  would have a divided opinion over them. Ok, they had already had errors on other things they had done, but being new to the market, for all we know, it could have been addressed on a flagship class like these. In the end it was not but this could hardly have been known to the NRM and Rapido at the time.

Every kickstarter campaign to date has failed to reach target numbers. It takes too long for news to get around and the numbers to be built up in this market. We could have announcements all over the place, but price and quality are vital and price in china changes every 6 months. A saturation of announcements = fewer orders still as people - unable to afford everything - will pick and choose.

 

The increase costs in China suggest a Rapido HST prototype coach for the NRM would now be at least £75 each. You are looking at a £1250 train, £1500 sound fitted.

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Please remember that Rapido was set up to produce models of American / Canadian prototypes NOT British ones and being a very small enterprise is entirely justified in gambling on everything turning out hunky dory post next March.

 

As one who has followed Jason since before Rapido was created I would like to point out that Rapido Trains was created to make the accurate models of the Canadian prototypes that Jason needs for his Kingston Sub layout, models that weren't at the time available as none of the US manufacturers created the variations in the tooling required (there are subtle differences in equipment on either side of the border) or didn't make the models at all.

 

Of course as Rapido has expanded they have moved into making US models, and then UK models.

 

Many of the claims being made about Rapido in this thread are incorrect, and in fact during his last visit to the UK one of the tasks Jason did was to officially create a British Limited company for Rapido so that Rapido can properly release their own branded models, with product already in progress - the Gunpowder van being the first to be made known though it hasn't been officially announced yet.

 

Anyone interested can read this newsletter (the North American newsletter 101) where Jason explains it and the connections Rapido has to the UK market - http://myemail.constantcontact.com/Rapido-News-101---More-scintillating-information-.html?soid=1101318906379&aid=9iLSsdMEIao

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As one who has followed Jason since before Rapido was created I would like to point out that Rapido Trains was created to make the accurate models of the Canadian prototypes that Jason needs for his Kingston Sub layout, models that weren't at the time available as none of the US manufacturers created the variations in the tooling required (there are subtle differences in equipment on either side of the border) or didn't make the models at all.

 

Of course as Rapido has expanded they have moved into making US models, and then UK models.

 

Many of the claims being made about Rapido in this thread are incorrect, and in fact during his last visit to the UK one of the tasks Jason did was to officially create a British Limited company for Rapido so that Rapido can properly release their own branded models, with product already in progress - the Gunpowder van being the first to be made known though it hasn't been officially announced yet.

 

Anyone interested can read this newsletter (the North American newsletter 101) where Jason explains it and the connections Rapido has to the UK market - http://myemail.constantcontact.com/Rapido-News-101---More-scintillating-information-.html?soid=1101318906379&aid=9iLSsdMEIao

 

A 4 wheeled wagon is a VERY different project to the HSDT and a rake of matching MK3 coaches! Even with Rapidos attention to detail the wagon is not going to retail for above £50 is it? - yet a decent representation of the HSDT train could well brake the £1000 mark - and in an uncertain economic environment thats a lot of money to expect folk to be able to spend.

 

IIRC when the HSDT project was paused Jason / Rapido were very clear it was the reaction of the financial markets to the decision to leave the EU which triggered the decision to halt work on the model. Jason setting up a UK subsidiary does nothing to alter the economics relating to the HSDT project although it does presumably provide a suitable firewall to protect his Canadian based business

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