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High Speed Diesel Train (HSDT) - The Story continues

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It is not readily known, but no one's mark 3s are suitable for the prototype hsdt set unless modified. Forget roof vents, cable connection points, doors and buffers, they were flush-glazed, certainly not having a rim around them.

It's a filing them off as well.

Of course,they could be resin cast or 3D printed.

Almost worth it for a single rake.

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It is not readily known, but no one's mark 3s are suitable for the prototype hsdt set unless modified. Forget roof vents, cable connection points, doors and buffers, they were flush-glazed, certainly not having a rim around them.

It's a filing them off as well.

Of course,they could be resin cast or 3D printed.

Almost worth it for a single rake.

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By the way, are we not railway modellers,not buyers.

It is a fascinating hobby, open to all, but I for one cannot afford to have such high-handed principles as being upset that a grille is wrong, or the odd millimetre is not correct.

I will accept these issues as not being a collector per se, but an operator, if something looks ok from 3' then that's near enough for me.

And the window rim is visible at that distance, as are the cable connectors, but much else is not.

As for running solo power cars, there are plenty of precedents, more than we ever realised, thanks to t'interweb.

Also, while you are counting rivets, just look at the differences in the 2 power cars after the first few months. I would think that these and our proclivity for critique are the reason for no firm production, not what they tow.

Just my views, admittedly.

Pete

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The rivet counting is not the cause of no model, Jason of Rapido Trains is one of the biggest pushers of getting these done accurately.

 

While there were a number of issues I would guess the biggest issue was Oxford announcing a line of Mk3 coaches which in turn ruled out Rapido tooling up the correct coaches for the Prototype HST (as the tooling costs could not be partially covered by making regular Mk3 coaches as well).

 

Regardless of whether solo power cars were prototypical or not, many/most of the people interested expressed an interest only if the correct coaches were available as well.

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Posted (edited)

While there were a number of issues I would guess the biggest issue was Oxford announcing a line of Mk3 coaches which in turn ruled out Rapido tooling up the correct coaches for the Prototype HST (as the tooling costs could not be partially covered by making regular Mk3 coaches as well).

An issue, or an excuse?

 

Unless they whip some out the bag, Hornby aren't going to produce any more MK3s than the current range of 43 locos they are building; Scotrail and GWR.

 

Oxford Rail's MK3a are quite different to the MK3 and as has been documented, the paint don't match the Hornby HSTs anyway.

 

That leaves a massive gap for an updated MK3 in many liveries. I'm struggling to source INTERCITY versions of the Swallow livery as a full set, for example. There seems to be large amounts of blue/grey versions and quite a few of the "Inter-City" exec versions from the early years but the italic stylised version? - nadda.

 

Yes, there may not be strong sales but if Hattons can bring another Class 66 to the market, and Hornby are releasing budget MK2f coaches, there is a gap for some updated MK3 coaches, as both of those meet different wants, just like a MK3 would.

Edited by Sir TophamHatt

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What makes you think Hornby are not going to make anymore mk3 coaches?

 

Hornby have announced new tooling for the Mk3 sliding door version which caters for the current updated and future versions...

 

Hornby have also been upgrading their exisiting mk3 coaches.... couple of years ago they got a minor revamp, tinted windows, some got lighting... Last years release of the Mk3 saw a further improvement with an improved coupling system...

 

Seems bizarre to think that after investing in both new tooling and updating the existing tooling that they are not going to release any more coaches.

 

Hornby tend to release their mk3 coaches in liveries that tie in with their HST power car releases, so this year they have 3 modern livery power cars, which is great for modern image modellers, and the corresponding liveried coaches....

 

You’ll probably not get your intercity swallow mk3’s till Hornby release another run of the power cars or if your lucky they release them as a Mk3a set and you pull the buffers off.

 

It’ll be a brave company that introduces another mk3 coach to the market, with 3 toolings in place. The market has shown that 3 or 4 companies producing the same models just doesn’t work.... ie class 47 Heljan, Hornby, Bachmann and Vitrains, and 37 with Hornby, Bachmann and vitrains....

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It’ll be a brave company that introduces another mk3 coach to the market, with 3 toolings in place. The market has shown that 3 or 4 companies producing the same models just doesn’t work.... ie class 47 Heljan, Hornby, Bachmann and Vitrains, and 37 with Hornby, Bachmann and vitrains....

 

Strange no one complains about the same from the automotive manufacturers as there is so much duplication there!

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Strange no one complains about the same from the automotive manufacturers as there is so much duplication there!

38.4 million vehicles on the road, according to google....

 

Most people in the UK need a car as a necessity, There’s maybe a couple of tens of thousand modellers/collectors(I don’t know the number), and models are really not a necessity.....

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Pulling the buffers off does not turn a mk 3A into a mk 3. The roof vents are different and very obvious given the angle we usually view our models. However some people are happy to compromise. With modern conversions they can be mixed rakes but for older liveries this was not the case.

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Unless they whip some out the bag, Hornby aren't going to produce any more MK3s than the current range of 43 locos they are building; Scotrail and GWR.

 

Oxford Rail's MK3a are quite different to the MK3 and as has been documented, the paint don't match the Hornby HSTs anyway.

That leaves a massive gap for an updated MK3 in many liveries. I'm struggling to source INTERCITY versions of the Swallow livery as a full set, for example. There seems to be large amounts of blue/grey versions and quite a few of the "Inter-City" exec versions from the early years but the italic stylised version? - nadda.

 

Yes, there may not be strong sales but if Hattons can bring another Class 66 to the market, and Hornby are releasing budget MK2f coaches, there is a gap for some updated MK3 coaches, as both of those meet different wants, just like a MK3 would.

 

The prototype HST coaches is a very limited market, likely only ever to see one production run.  If there ever was to be a second run it would be many, many years later.  Thus it would really be best to be able to also do a regular Mk3 to help with the issue of the cost of the tooling.

 

When Oxford announced their Mk3 they indicated that the tooling was intended to allow for all the variations that the Mk3 had (at least up until that time).  Thus anyone else considering entering the market had to consider that they would be a 3rd offering in the market for the HST Mk3 variant.

 

Hornby have an advantage in offering a new Mk3 in that they can choose whether it is a 3rd offering, or only a 2nd offering with the existing tooling getting retired (or only used when can be justified and not hurting sales of product using the new tooling).  It is also possible that Hornby may be (aware / guessing) that the Oxford tooling can't be cost effectively modified for these new Mk3 versions.

 

We also now, with the benefit of hindsight, that Oxford has been much slower at getting the Mk3 models out than expected, that Oxford is more interested in making to a price point than to accuracy, and the question of if Oxford Rail continues or not given the changes in ownership/management that have happened in the last 2 years.

 

Which is all unfortunate for those of us who would like a modern, detailed, accurate HST because the Hornby price point on their new Mk3 indicates it isn't what we want, but have to wait for some EP samples to get a better idea of how Hornby are aiming it.

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Pulling the buffers off does not turn a mk 3A into a mk 3. The roof vents are different and very obvious given the angle we usually view our models. However some people are happy to compromise. With modern conversions they can be mixed rakes but for older liveries this was not the case.

Remember some mark 3As were turned into mark 3s by removal of the buffers and some other changes so a (or even a couple of) bufferless mark 3A can run in HST sets, I have a very poor picture of 42382 (ex 12128) and 42383 (ex 12172) coupled up together at Exeter St Davids, the picture taken from the steps so it shows the roof vents meaning you can get away with running 2 of them in the same set.

 

Of course in my world these conversions took place much earlier in their lives while they were in blue and grey livery hence me running Oxfords and Hornby together in the same sets.

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The prototype HST coaches is a very limited market, likely only ever to see one production run. 

But most of the prototype coaches are still in use to this day so they can also be adorned with most of the latest liveries even if production runs would by necessity be smaller than 'normal' mark 3 coaches, they certainly are not limited to one or two liveries.

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Tooling any model is an expensive business. The reason there are so many locomotive models is because the cost of tooling can be spread across a longer run, where people expect to pay a higher price. Each coach requires its own tooling suite, so an eight coach train may require four or five different tooling suites. The market for coaches is smaller than for locomotives as there's no 'display/collection' element in the coaching stock market, so the tooling cost has to be spread over shorter runs, pushing the final price up. Pushing individual coach prices up to realistic levels would inevitably lead to reduced demand, making such a project unviable. (CJL)

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IIRC the Oxford tooling drawings that were released prior to the tool tests showed various slides which included the prototype catering cars, as well as flush-fitting windows and the correct roof vents,doors too, so there is hope.l spent several hours studying the tooling to ascertain if it would save me converting Jouef models.

Whilst it is said that there are dimensional issues, l am yet to see them published, any offers?

I have put a hold on the construction of my rake at present, but anticipate contiuing with the proje t later in the year.

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IIRC the Oxford tooling drawings that were released prior to the tool tests showed various slides which included the prototype catering cars, as well as flush-fitting windows and the correct roof vents,doors too, so there is hope.l spent several hours studying the tooling to ascertain if it would save me converting Jouef models.

Whilst it is said that there are dimensional issues, l am yet to see them published, any offers?

 

 

On the assumption you are talking about the Oxford Mk3, there are some issues that have been covered in the Oxford section of RMweb, but my recollection is the window frames and maybe doors have slight issues and the bottom of coach (the equipment lockers) is too wide.

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