Shoey Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 The update pictures on the Revolution website for the N gauge tanks look brilliant. Just ordered my EWS ones. Keep 'em coming Ben! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trent Posted June 11, 2016 Share Posted June 11, 2016 Hi Ben, Good to meet you at DEMU Burton and take a look at the N gauge TEA's. I had planned on ordering some of these but seeing how good the N versions looked in ones hand prompted me to hurry up and order before the early bird discount expires! So... order just placed. Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin_l_jones Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 Just ordered my Greenergy TEA's... Hopefully will order the EWS one's when I get back from my holiday. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dungrange Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 These look like being nice models, but I have a few dumb questions about the prototype before deciding on whether to order any of these, how many and in what liveries. I know that the first wagons entered service in 2006, but when did each of the different liveries being produced first appear on the network? I can't see this information on the website. I assume these liveries were not all running in the early years (which is the period I am most interested in). The flow map on the Revolution website (http://www.revolutiontrains.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/TEA_map.jpg) implies that all of the flows out of Grangemouth would be in VTG grey livery, yet the sample consists (http://www.revolutiontrains.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/TEA-sample-consists.pdf) from 2015 show a mixture of VTG red and VTG grey (with a single VTG blue wagon in one consist). Have these only been 'mixed up' in recent years? I'm assuming that each livery was allocated to a specific flow when new, but have since moved around a little due to changes in demand for the wagons on particular flows, repairs etc. Also, when these wagons were introduced first, did they always operate as block trains of near identical wagons, or were they mixed with older types initially (ie wagons of the type produced by Bachmann). I already have a couple of the Bachmann TEAs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoey Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 I'd love a rake of the VTG grey ones to run behind a Colas 60 when Hornby decide to release one - don't think I'd have room on my layout for another rake though... Or do I..??.. He he he (just don't tel the missus) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted June 12, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 12, 2016 (edited) Hello David, The sample flows are all accurate, but the map is more of a guide to give customers a general idea. I am not sure how much detail you want, but I do not have an exhaustive knowledge of all combinations of wagons and paths. The wagons were built in batches. VTG 88115-42 in red, VTG 143-156 in blue and VTG157-74 in dark grey were built in 2006. The EWS wagons 870200-344 were built 2006-7, and the Freightliner wagons (since acquired by VTG) were built in 2007. Then there was a gap before the VTG blue with enviro logos and Greenergy wagons came in in 2011 or 2012. Grangemouth has been operated by Ineos (now Petroineos) since 2004. Initially the trains were formed of green ex-BP wagons and run by EWS. In recent years, it seems the refinery decided to hire in extra wagons from VTG. I think they received grey ones, which started to be mixed in with the green ones. As the green ones came to the end of their lives Petroineos has hired in more VTG wagons, and been sent a mix of more grey and red ones, and some blue, and of course now the haulage contract has switched to Colas. My recommendation would be to search flickr or youtube for the headcodes of the Grangemouth trains in the time period you're interested in and then form your own view. cheers Ben A. Edited June 12, 2016 by Ben A 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dungrange Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 Thanks Ben. I'm not trying to replicate a specific flow on a particular date, but a fictitious, somewhere in central Scotland circa 2007ish type of layout (ie the EWS rather than DB Schenker era). The VTG Blue with Enviro markings are therefore a little too modern (although they look nice) as is the Greenenergy livery. However, the others all seem to fit my time period, although the plain grey VTG branded tanks would probably be most appropriate from your response. Looking at Flickr there seems to be plenty of photographs with a Colas locomotive (most frequently a Class 60), but few from the EWS era. My wagon spotting skills are perhaps not up to scratch, but this photo on Flickr seems to show one of the VTG grey wagons immediately behind EWS 66200 at the head of a rake of otherwise green TEAs, so it would appear that an isolated wagon in a rake of older wagons is permissible. This photo on Flickr also seems to include a single VTG grey wagon in the rake behind DB branded 66080, although it is the second wagon in this case, while in this photo on Flickr, the first two wagons appear to be the VTG branded grey wagons heading up a train of otherwise green TEA . Unfortunately these are all 2015 photographs, so I guess even the VTG grey ones would have been rare in my time period. Interestingly, these wagons seem to make up the majority of trains headed by Colas motive power and the red ones seem to be particularly common. Looks like I need to keep searching for justification. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 (edited) Being strictly accurate the red ones transferred up from Wales very recently - within the last year or so. In the time period you are modelling the Grangemouth flows were all 1960s style wagons so far as I can tell.But - if you're happy with stretching it, why couldn't EWS have used some of theirs to supplement the BP wagons - or maybe EWS ran a different service up from Humberside using theirs (there are terminals elsewhere served from more than one refinery hence visited by more than one of these fleets) - or maybe VTG started swapping out the elderly tanks earlier, or... Edited June 15, 2016 by Glorious NSE Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steadfast Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 Not saying it doesn't happen, but the VTG grey and EWS tanks rarely run in a block train all of one livery, there's usually a mix of the two since they're both in Lindsey pools. More recently, plain green ex FLHH and VTG blue have featured on Lindsey flows too Jo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted June 16, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 16, 2016 (edited) Hi David, In the second photo you've linked to, the wagons behind the loco have the shorter catwalk that only reaches about 2/3 along the length of the wagon. I suspect it they are of the 13 built for Stalybridge styrene traffic in 2001 and originally light blue and subsequently painted grey painted mid grey. (Edited after I checked my records and realised that they were grey from the start. Apologies) The ones we are doing are virtually identical but were built from 2006, at which time, presumably in the light of operational experience, the catwalks were extended to full length. I can't say for sure when the 2006 versions started to be introduced into the Grangemouth trains. Cheers Ben A. Edited June 18, 2016 by Ben A Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dungrange Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 Being strictly accurate the red ones transferred up from Wales very recently - within the last year or so. In the time period you are modelling the Grangemouth flows were all 1960s style wagons so far as I can tell. But - if you're happy with stretching it, why couldn't EWS have used some of theirs to supplement the BP wagons - or maybe EWS ran a different service up from Humberside using theirs (there are terminals elsewhere served from more than one refinery hence visited by more than one of these fleets) - or maybe VTG started swapping out the elderly tanks earlier, or... The Revolution trains website (http://www.revolutiontrains.com/category/tea/) states: "23 of VTG’s red tankers have been moved to Scotland for use on Grangemouth traffic. The wagons involved are VTG88115-37. These were formerly used for Murco traffic from South Wales, and are in all-over red livery with blue VTG lettering. The wagons were built in 2006 and are of the same type being offered by Revolution. This is believed to be the first time the red VTG tankers have been seen north of the border. They were moved north on Friday June 11th 2015. 60011 took the train as far as Carlisle, where 66170 took over". I note that transfer was just over 12 months ago as you have stated, which explains why all of the red VTG tankers I have seen photographs of seem to be behind a Colas locomotive. I haven't come across any photographs of the grey ones on Grangemouth trains within my time period (I agree that they all look like 1960s wagons), but as you say, there could be several plausible imaginary scenarios. After all, if the location is fictitious, the flows definitely are too. What does appear to be the case is that they don't operate in uniform block trains and since I have a couple of BP Green Bachmann TEAs, a mixed rake should look okay. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dungrange Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 In the second photo you've linked to, the wagons behind the loco have the shorter catwalk that only reaches about 2/3 along the length of the wagon. I suspect it they are of the 13 built for Stalybridge styrene traffic in 2001 and originally light blue and subsequently painted grey. The ones we are doing are virtually identical but were built from 2006, at which time, presumably in the light of operational experience, the catwalks were extended to full length. I can't say for sure when the 2006 versions started to be introduced into the Grangemouth trains. Thanks - I can see that now. Clearly my wagon spotting skills are not up to scratch. It seems that I also missed the fact that there is another VTG TEA further back in that same rake that I missed (the fifth wagon)! I continue to see if I can find anything regarding when these wagons first appeared in Scotland, but I remain tempted. That said, I'm now tempted by a Colas Class 60 as well!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoey Posted June 18, 2016 Share Posted June 18, 2016 Thanks - I can see that now. Clearly my wagon spotting skills are not up to scratch. It seems that I also missed the fact that there is another VTG TEA further back in that same rake that I missed (the fifth wagon)! I continue to see if I can find anything regarding when these wagons first appeared in Scotland, but I remain tempted. That said, I'm now tempted by a Colas Class 60 as well!! To be perfectly honest, I don't model the area that these wagons are used. I live in the south west and only really model the trains that I see down through my local station (plus a few others that I like and couldn't resist) but seeing how the n gauge wagons are looking, I couldn't resist placing an order! Hopefully Hornby will announce a Colas Class 60 at some point too... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoey Posted June 18, 2016 Share Posted June 18, 2016 Looks like someone has already beaten you to the post Ben... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted June 18, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 18, 2016 (edited) Hi Shoey, Thanks for that. Interesting video. I can't quite see whether these are new tankers, or the existing Arbel ones going through an overhaul and getting a fresh coat of paint. A quick google didn't give any indication of new tankers being acquired, but that's not to say it isn't happening....! EDIT: Having watched the video a few times on a larger screen I think these are the existing Arbel wagons repainted, from the saddles and the catwalk appearance. Cheers Ben A. Edited June 18, 2016 by Ben A 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted June 18, 2016 Share Posted June 18, 2016 Hi Shoey, Thanks for that. Interesting video. I can't quite see whether these are new tankers, or the existing Arbel ones going through an overhaul and getting a fresh coat of paint. A quick google didn't give any indication of new tankers being acquired, but that's not to say it isn't happening....! EDIT: Having watched the video a few times on a larger screen I think these are the existing Arbel wagons repainted, from the saddles and the catwalk appearance. Cheers Ben A. I believe they've just been overhauled at Eastleigh- there's a photo in July's 'Rail Express' of one there. The fleet has been taken over from GERS by TOUAX, along with the former Tiphook and Cargowaggon wagons, though not all stock has been re-prefixed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dungrange Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 I can't say for sure when the 2006 versions started to be introduced into the Grangemouth trains. The answer would appear to be sometime after 2010 (which explains why in my time period I have only seen the BP green tanks). The VTG website has a newsletter archive and newsletter number 15 (summer 2010) has an article on the front cover about VTG's acquisition of the BP Oil wagon fleet. This deal in March 2010 was for the purchase and leaseback of 124 tank wagons operating out of the Grangemouth refinery. It would appear that this removed the need for BP Oil to renew their wagon fleet and they became eligible for VTG’s wagon replacement programme, with the newest wagons being assigned to the highest mileage contracts. I assume that the BPO prefix started to be replaced with VTG from this time and as the ex-BPO wagons were inspected or maintained, some were taken out of service and replaced with the 2006 built versions that Revolution Trains are producing. This would therefore suggest that there may be photographic evidence of these wagons on flows out of Grangemouth as early as 2010, although I have yet to find a photograph this early. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted June 20, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 20, 2016 Hello all, I have been given some more information about the Grangemouth tanks story... The Styrene tanks began to be used on Dalston trains in autumn 2014. Obviously these are not post-2006 wagons. They were joined by the first post-2006 TEAs in summer 2015 when VTG red Nos. 88115-37 moved to Scotland. These are the second batch of Petroplus wagons. Four grey 2006 wagons and one original Conoco blue tank also appear to be used on the Grangemouth trains now. The Sinfin aviation fuel uses a set of the original CAIB TDAs which were the originators of the "21st century" TEA design. Cheers Ben A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 The answer would appear to be sometime after 2010 (which explains why in my time period I have only seen the BP green tanks). The VTG website has a newsletter archive and newsletter number 15 (summer 2010) has an article on the front cover about VTG's acquisition of the BP Oil wagon fleet. This deal in March 2010 was for the purchase and leaseback of 124 tank wagons operating out of the Grangemouth refinery. It would appear that this removed the need for BP Oil to renew their wagon fleet and they became eligible for VTG’s wagon replacement programme, with the newest wagons being assigned to the highest mileage contracts. I assume that the BPO prefix started to be replaced with VTG from this time and as the ex-BPO wagons were inspected or maintained, some were taken out of service and replaced with the 2006 built versions that Revolution Trains are producing. This would therefore suggest that there may be photographic evidence of these wagons on flows out of Grangemouth as early as 2010, although I have yet to find a photograph this early. sorry to be a pedant but I don't think the BP liveried wagons were owned by BP by 2010 - BP sold out of the Grangemouth refinery and chemical works in 2005 to Ineos and I would be surprised if this deal didn't include the tank wagon fleet which is why I suspect most (if not all) ran without logos from around this time. Presumably age of wagons meant didn't warrant repaint into Ineos livery. M Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dungrange Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 sorry to be a pedant but I don't think the BP liveried wagons were owned by BP by 2010 - BP sold out of the Grangemouth refinery and chemical works in 2005 to Ineos and I would be surprised if this deal didn't include the tank wagon fleet which is why I suspect most (if not all) ran without logos from around this time. Presumably age of wagons meant didn't warrant repaint into Ineos livery. M I think that you are correct that many of the BP logos were probably removed from the BP Oils wagon fleet as a result of the sale of the refinery and chemical works to Ineos (which probably means I need to remove the BP logos from most of the green TEA and TTA wagons that I own). However, I don't think that the rail logistics business was ever sold to Ineos and the VTG newsletter that I linked to in my previous post specifically states that the deal was with BP Oils. Although BP decided to divest its worldwide olefins and derivatives business in 2005: the sale included the Refinery and connected petrochemicals complex; the sale did not include the Kinneil Crude Oil stabilisation terminal, which BP retained and continues to operate. The Kinneil terminal is where the pipeline system from the Forties field comes ashore and this crude oil is either export to third parties via pipeline to the Dalmeny tank farm, and subsequently shipped out from the Hound Point marine terminal or it is fed into the refinery (now owned by Ineos). Since BP Oil retained ownership of the Forties pipeline system, the Kinniel terminal, Dalmeny tank farm and pipeline and the Hound Point terminal (ie the logistics side of the business), I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that the rail logistics part of the business was also retained rather than sold to Ineos. However, I'm sure once BP realised the capital cost of a wagon replacement programme, they decided that they would switch to a contract with VTG. Anyway, we seem to be deviating from the type of wagon that Revolution Trains are actually producing: the 2006 built wagons, which it appears didn't actually appear on Grangemouth services until 2015. :-( Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Thanks David, I honestly don't know for sure about the tank wagons ownership and you could be right. The FPS, Kinneil, Dalmeny etc. were always part of BP Exploration due to their close linkages with the North Sea whereas the Refinery was owned by BP Oil and Chemical works by BP Chemicals. These operated as almost separate companies within BP until almost the entire chemicals business was divested. These days the company is split between BP Upstream which owns and operates FPS etc., and Downstream which owns the residual parts of BP Oil and Chemicals (none at Grangemouth). As a result I don't believe the tank wagons would have ever been associated with the FPS business as all crude into FPS was either sent to refinery for processing (effectively bought by BP Oil) or shipped out of Hound Point on tankers. Only refined products and chemicals were ever sent our out of Grangemouth by rail as far as I know. However, it is not uncommon when divesting assets to not be able to sell everything in one job lot and it may have been the case that the Ineos deal didn't include the tank wagons, leaving BP oil with the tank wagons. M Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoey Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Just wondering whether the grey VTG wagons being produced are the same as in the video above...? Many thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted June 23, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 23, 2016 Hello all, Rapido have received the first samples from the tooling for the 4mm TEA tanker wagon. This shows the barrel, the ends and the bufferbeam fairings. As well as the bogies, there are lots of small detail parts missing from the underframe and the ends, and of course the models will have fine wire for brake piping and etched catwalks. If you're interested in ordering one (or more!) of these models the EarlyBird prices are available for just one more week, as prices will go up at the end of June. More details and pics on the news page of our website - click on the link below the Revolution logo in my sig. cheers Ben A. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted June 23, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 23, 2016 Just wondering whether the grey VTG wagons being produced are the same as in the video above...? Many thanks Hi Shoey, Those wagons are the bitumen tanks used on that particular service. They are black, with polished bands. These are slightly different to the ones we are doing. See here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/97605-revolution-trains-confirms-tea-tanker-in-n/?p=1834583 cheers Ben A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Just wondering whether the grey VTG wagons being produced are the same as in the video above...? No unfortunately the Bitumen tanks have heavily lagged bodies so whilst there is a definate "family resemblance" they look quite different close-up - I think they are also a bit shorter. Grey VTG as per Revolutions model - VTG88168 at Lincoln in 2007. Bitumen ICA tank 35-70-7790-023-5 at Althorpe in 2012 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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