Harbledown Railroad Heritage Line (Wisconsin Central)

[Chris116]

There it was on the Bachmann stand at Warley last Saturday. A Wisconsin Central GP38-2. I resisted the first time I saw it but two hours later it was still looking lonely and somehow it landed in my bag with five freight wagons. I think it was the cash in my hand that caused that bit!

 

Anyway I now own the GP38-2 plus

 

55 ton 2 bay outside braced Hopper with coal load - Erie Railroad

40' Box Car - Great Northern

40' Three Dome Tank Car - Cook Paint & Varnish Co

40' Single Dome Tank Car - Shell

Flat Car with three log load - Louisville & Nashville

 

Having got these items I need to build a 4 or 5 foot long by 10 inch wide shunting puzzle that looks like a USA based layout. Having only really studied British railways throughout my life I know that there are many pitfalls in building something that would look nice but be totally wrong to anyone who knows US Railroading so I am hoping those with a lot more knowledge can point me in the right direction.

 

The loco interested me due to my wife coming from Wisconsin but I do not know if the stock I have would have ever run behind the GP38-2 so any pointers on that would be helpful.

 

I also need a few pointers to a track layout that is prototypical for US Railroading. Basically a shunting puzzle with a maximum of five points is all I can think of but you may be able to come up with something else.

 

Thank you in advance for any help you can give me.

 

 

 

Edited March 22, 2021 by Chris116
Updated Topic Name

[PhilH]

Slippery slope Chris! Check this site out for ideas http://www.carendt.com/

[Glorious NSE]

Stock? Sorry to say from the description you have the US equivalent of a class 56 hauling five plank coal wagons.

[Glorious NSE]

http://wc2scale.org/zenphoto/index.phpmight help with freightcar images in particular?

[PhilH]

Stock? Sorry to say from the description you have the US equivalent of a class 56 hauling five plank coal wagons.

 

I think a lot of us started like that. Some of me us, um, haven't moved on very far...

[46444]

Stock? Sorry to say from the description you have the US equivalent of a class 56 hauling five plank coal wagons.

 

Hi Chris,

 

The Bachmann WC GP38-2 does look good

 

However, I'd agree with with Martyn as well on this one with regards to the stock you've acquired.

 

This video should give you an idea of what you'd expect to see in the days of WC.

 

 

F-Unit would be able to fill you in with the history but WC originated from SOO Line origins.

 

For rolling stock it may be worth looking out for the Accurail freight stock kits.  In my mind they offer a decent representation of a piece of stock but also at a reasonable price. Check eBay and second hand sales.

 

I think you've made a good start though and the shunting plank does sound like a good idea.  May be worth flicking through a copy of Model Railroader as well for some ideas.

 

HTH?

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

Edited November 30, 2015 by 46444

[PhilH]

Cracking video. Lots of lovely run down, weedy surroundings just crying out to be modelled.

Edited November 30, 2015 by PhilH

[46444]

Forgot to say this site is also a good source of reference photos:

 

http://railpictures.net/showphotos.php

 

[Chris116]

Many thanks for the replies. That is a great video and it reminds me that I have a DVD or video of the Wisconsin Central somewhere. I must look it out I might learn something!

 

Given that I want to use the GP38-2 on the layout which will be rather small what stock should I have purchased and of the items I already have which are reasonable to make use of and which should be sold to someone who knows a bit more than I do!

[doctor quinn]

Hi Chris,

 

Welcome to the dark side, the flat car certainly has possibilities, is it a 40' or 50'?

 

A couple of websites you may want to check out

 

Lance Mindheim is a promoter of the "achievable" layout

 

http://lancemindheim.com/

 

Fallen Flags is a photo site with a lot of shots of loco and cars

 

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/

 

Nick

[F-UnitMad]

Well as I was Mentioned in Dispatches a few posts up....

The "new" Wisconsin Central dates from 1987 to 2001 (not to be confused with the "old" Wisconsin Central that merged with the 'old' Soo Line in 1961 to form the "new" Soo Line ) The livery derives from the pre-'61 Soo Line livery of maroon & gold, & very nice it was too.

By the sound of it, all 5 of your freight cars are out of date; no worries - on this side of The Pond I bet most of us started out with 'wrong' cars. If they're not worth too much consider using them for weathering practise?

Take good note of the writings of Lance Mindheim; more realistic layouts comprise fewer, longer spurs (start getting used to US terminology as well.!!!) rather than lots of short "one car only" spurs, & if planned well & operated realistically, there should be no need to resort to 'artificial' switching puzzles.

[Chris116]

Thank you F-UnitMad for your helpful comments. When I got married and visited my wife's home state I looked into the history of Wisconsin Central and Soo Line. Sadly I did not pay a lot of attention to the stock that was behind the locos!

 

While I would like to have more than a shunting puzzle I do not see what else I can do in 4' by 1'.

 

To answer an earlier question, the flat car is 50'.

[Zomboid]

I think a lot of us started like that. Some of me us, um, haven't moved on very far...

*raises hand*

40 foot cars are what you need for small shunting puzzles. I'm not embarrassed by my post Rio Grande merger GP60 pushing them around.

[PhilH]

One other thing...apart from Rule 1, invariably somewhere, somewhen and somehow there absolutely is a prototype for everything.

 

OK, someone might not have photographed it.....

Edited December 1, 2015 by PhilH

[Glorious NSE]

I started out like that too, with an Athearn SDP40 in CNW (if you fancy it you can have a google as to why that might be a problem), along with a nice Vermont Railway 40' boxcar, and a BN husky stack....so yeah we've all been there.

And don't take it as a criticism - I wouldn't have mentioned it except that Chris DID ask the question, suggesting he does want to know!

As for "40' cars are good for shunting puzzles" - sure, if that's the approach you want? (It wouldn't be what I'd want personally, but it's the builders choice.)

But 40' (ish, give or take a foot or two) freightcars are still being built brand new in 2015, as they have been for the last 100+ years. They just don't look anything like those Bachmann models. If you decide you HAVE to have 40' cars for your shunting puzzle (and again I would humbly suggest that's an individuals choice, not a rule) then you can do so perfectly prototypically by making sure you choose industries that use the denser commodities that use those short cars.

For WC in particular, sand, gravel, cement, kaolin/clay slurry or corn syrup would be good flows to look at. Modern, short, credible freightcars are available RTR for all of those.

The Walthers 2 bay trinity covered hopper has been done in WC paint, I think they used it for sand service but cement is a viable load for the car type.
The Walthers Greenville 2 bay open hopper has been done in WC, used for various aggregate loads.
The Walthers Ortner 3 bay "rock box" has been done in WC (and Algoma Central) think they might be slightly longer than 40' but still much shorter than 50'. Again, various aggregate loads (and feel free to mix with the Greenvilles)
Clay tanks can be found from Atlas, Athearn or Walthers
Corn syrup tanks can be found from Atlas, Intermountain or Walthers

But 50' boxcars (and there you have oodles and oodles of options for perfectly prototypical boxcars in the WC fleet, plus lots of scope for outsiders, leasers etc) are what, a whole 1.5 inches longer than a 40' car? Is that really that critical?
 

Edited December 1, 2015 by Glorious NSE

[Chris116]

I started out like that too, with an Athearn SDP40 in CNW (if you fancy it you can have a google as to why that might be a problem), along with a nice Vermont Railway 40' boxcar, and a BN husky stack....so yeah we've all been there.

 

And don't take it as a criticism - I wouldn't have mentioned it except that Chris DID ask the question, suggesting he does want to know!

 

As for "40' cars are good for shunting puzzles" - sure, if that's the approach you want? (It wouldn't be what I'd want personally, but it's the builders choice.)

 

But 40' (ish, give or take a foot or two) freightcars are still being built brand new in 2015, as they have been for the last 100+ years. They just don't look anything like those Bachmann models. If you decide you HAVE to have 40' cars for your shunting puzzle (and again I would humbly suggest that's an individuals choice, not a rule) then you can do so perfectly prototypically by making sure you choose industries that use the denser commodities that use those short cars.

 

For WC in particular, sand, gravel, cement, kaolin/clay slurry or corn syrup would be good flows to look at. Modern, short, credible freightcars are available RTR for all of those.

 

The Walthers 2 bay trinity covered hopper has been done in WC paint, I think they used it for sand service but cement is a viable load for the car type.

The Walthers Greenville 2 bay open hopper has been done in WC, used for various aggregate loads.

The Walthers Ortner 3 bay "rock box" has been done in WC (and Algoma Central) think they might be slightly longer than 40' but still much shorter than 50'. Again, various aggregate loads (and feel free to mix with the Greenvilles)

Clay tanks can be found from Atlas, Athearn or Walthers

Corn syrup tanks can be found from Atlas, Intermountain or Walthers

 

But 50' boxcars (and there you have oodles and oodles of options for perfectly prototypical boxcars in the WC fleet, plus lots of scope for outsiders, leasers etc) are what, a whole 1.5 inches longer than a 40' car? Is that really that critical?

 

Well I am certainly learning a lot, as I expected to when I posted my first request for assistance. RMweb proves how useful it is and how helpful most of the members are. Take a collective bow and please accept my thanks for all the help so far.

 

Now all I have to do is check out some suppliers of the stock mentioned above, finalise a suitable track plan and get some code 83 track which I assume (dangerous thing to do!) is the best for US layouts.

[Zomboid]

For me, I have 4' 6" x 1' for my layout. I have chosen to use that for a 3-2-2 inglenook, which wouldn't work with longer cars than 40'. And so my criteria for selecting vehicles was "40' for under a tenner", and my cars are mostly 'very well suited to weathering practise'

It's just one way to skin that particular squirrel, if you don't want a classic shunting puzzle then you can do a lot of different things in a tiny space.

[Talltim]

The other option is to keep the older cars and replace the loco with something older

[Glorious NSE]

I think Zomboid's post hints at a point of note here - what he has is literally a "shunting puzzle" (a 3-2-2 inglenook) - it's point is not to be a model of a railway, it's to be a 3d puzzle. A bit like those sliding tile games. In a lot of respects the freightcars there really don't matter, but their size does as the standard car sizes and track lengths are "rules" in the "game".

I think there are a lot of folk out there though that try and build small layouts which are challenging though, and call them "switching puzzles", and want to make them look at least somewhat realistic.

So those two concepts are a bit different, and sometimes they end up with folk talking at cross purposes.

Just to throw a curveball off my own hobby-horse (metaphors mixed enough yet?) - if it was 18" wide then you could build a freemo module!

[BG John]

Just because you have three sidings in a small space, it doesn't have to be only a "3D puzzle". Lots of real places have/had three sidings. It depends on how you present it. My British O gauge micro layout is a 3-2-2 inglenook, but I've aimed to make two sidings look as though they are the ends of much longer sidings that continue off stage, and to get to the other one you have to run along a short part of the "main line" through the industrial site. It only works in 4ft (plus fiddle yard) with short wheelbase wagons, but presumably more could be squeezed in with HO bogie wagons.

[Zomboid]

A classic shunting puzzle (inglenook/ timesaver) is a good choice for someone like myself who is very inexperienced, as it avoids building a layout where operations will be pointless and boring.

A downside is that I have collected things like "a blue boxcar" and "an ACL boxcar".

They can still be proper model railways though. Just don't look at my layout thread for proof

That's more than enough hijacking of the thread from me now...

[shortliner]

If you need a couple more "shortie" cars for a small space railroad there are the short Taconite cars ( shipping very heavy ore), and the "Beer can" tank cars. Both have bogies and take up little space

 

Beer and Tacos Somehow that almost sounds like a Mexican Lunch !

 

Both these are available through Athearn, and if you need ideas for layouts in small spaces - if you haven't already found Carls small layout scrapbook try http://www.carendt.com/

These are N gauge http://www.cke1st.com/m_train2.htm

Moving up a bit in size https://huntervalleylines.wordpress.com/2015/12/01/the-end-of-one-year-and-the-beginning-of-the-next/look at his layout designs

Edited December 1, 2015 by shortliner

[DelawareAndHudson]

This probably won't meet the 4'-5' requirement but if you can find some way to get a bit more space, say maybe 18"x72" or 18"x84", you can do a really nice version of Mike Tylick's O scale Pioneer Valley in HO scale.  The Pioneer Valley is set in New England but you can make it look Wisconsin without much effort at all.  

 

http://www.trainweb.org/tylick/opvplan.htm

 

http://www.trainweb.org/tylick/modelopvintro.htm

 

 

Again, bigger than 4'-5' but an interesting layout that could also easily fit a Wisconsin Central theme is Nick Palette's 'Hallsville, Pennsylvania' layout.

 

http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/8587/hallsvilleconraillayout.jpg

 

Operate it from inside the layout and flip-flop the locations of the industries that are against the backdrop to place them on the outer edges of the layout.  

 

 

If there's a chance you could get a corner location in a room, say 4'x'4 along each wall or even 6' on one wall and 3' on another, you could easily bend the Pioneer Valley plan or convert the Hallsville plan to an 'L' shape.

 

 

Sorry I don't have any smaller suggestions.  I'm not really good at planning or thinking in some of the compact sizes you folks build in.  

 

 

Jason C

Indiana

[Glorious NSE]

I'm not suggesting 3 sidings in a small space can ONLY be a 3D puzzle, hundreds if not thousands of real life places must have 3 spurs.

A "3-2-2 inglenook shunting puzzle" is however primarily designed to be a 3D puzzle rather than a model of a real railway, it comes with specific track lengths and specific vehicle lengths and vehicle quantities to create a specific puzzle to be solved.

There is no reason why you can't build the same inglenook layout as Zomboid has and have a 60' boxcar, other than you then wouldn't get 3 cars in one track, and 2 cars in each of the other track, and two cars and the loco in the headshunt, which is what the "rules" of the "game" tell you to have.

I don't believe I'm suggesting such a thing is "Wrong" somehow, it's certainly still a model railroad (not quite sure what "proper" means in the context) - what it isn't is a model of a railroad, as it doesn't operate like one, even if you did make it look like one by careful scenery and appropriate cars and loco's.

[Talltim]

If you need a couple more "shortie" cars for a small space railroad there are the short Taconite cars ( shipping very heavy ore), and the "Beer can" tank cars. Both have bogies and take up little space

 

Beer beer.jpg and Tacos taco.jpg Somehow that almost sounds like a Mexican Lunch !

 

Both these are available through Athearn, and if you need ideas for layouts in small spaces - if you haven't already found Carls small layout scrapbook try http://www.carendt.com/

These are N gauge http://www.cke1st.com/m_train2.htm

Moving up a bit in size https://huntervalleylines.wordpress.com/2015/12/01/the-end-of-one-year-and-the-beginning-of-the-next/look at his layout designs

Pretty certain Ore cars would be more block train territory, rather than single cars