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Dapol Black Label A4


Coldgunner

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Interesting project. I fear Dapol have missed a trick on making an 'ultimate A4'. The Hornby model is very very good, let down really only by the lack of camber on the nose front, and the compromises in the valance/bogie area to allow 2nd rad curves . Dapol have, if anything, over-cambered the nose; this is exacerbated by the top of the cods mouth being 'curved'. What on earth is going on there? Cods mouth door itself is also a bit overdone in its lateral curve.

The line of the hinges is certainly flat, as this picture of 60010/4489 clearly demonstrates

https://www.flickr.com/photos/25459770@N03/8468691402

 

If anything it looks less finescale in terms of detail than Hornby, especially with the lights and exposed wires (I want to chose my own lamps and headcode psoition). Whistle seems a bit beefy too, and the cab roof is sitting proud of the boiler...

Valve gear and wheels ARE (from these pictures) nice and better than Hornby.

 

I'll be waiting to see any final product before even thinking about ordering.... but at present there is a slight 'Hornby Dublo' aura about these pictures.

 

If there is one loco asking to be laser scanned, it is the complex compound curves of the A4!

 

EDITED to include link to photo of DoC

Agreed. I hadn't noticed the cab roof, but my first impression was there was something very wrong around the nose end shape. The model does, however, have nice drain pipes and dust shields on the bogie, The best thing, though, is the steel tyres on the wheels - I had to abandon plans to model 1970s condition SNG from the Hornby model due to the poor wheels. The Dapol ones are much better than the £1000+ model, too, whoever does that, which has the tyres modelled in seriously worn condition. 

 

The real test of shape will be if Dapol do a de-skirted version, where any compromise around the cylinder area will be more apparent. I'm thinking of the way Hornby took the skirts straight down without tucking them under the cylinders - totally unnecessary in plastic as, once a curve has been imparted to them, the plastic flexes enough to clear the cylinders when the body is removed. With diecast metal it will be a different story... 

 

Overall, I'm disinclined to pay £400 just for decent wheels and dust shields and a few toy-town effects. The leads to the lights on Dapol's models are more visible than the glow from any steam engine lamp ever was. 

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I'll let others who know the prototype far better than I do critique this model. To me it passes the 'duck test'.

I apologize for the pun. (Actually I don't apologize.)

 

The bigger question is "why?".  I think many would agree that an A4 is a natural choice for an all-singing, all-dancing model, but it's a pretty saturated market and it's not like the Hornby model is either of poor quality or dirt cheap.

 

With the bake off between Hornby and Hattons/DJModels to make a high-end plastic King, and Hornby doing a Southern 'premier' item with the Merchant Navy, you'd wonder whether there might have been a better choice in these days of limited production runs - particularly for a company that hasn't been on the top of everyone's consciousness lately.

 

I do like the fact that lamps are fitted, even if they are bright where the prototype would be dim.

 

At the end of the day, this is something I can happily pass on.

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Fair play to Dapol's ambition, but for 400 sovs, they need to get it right.

 

I'm in agreement with thos who've suggested that the current "look", let alone bells and whistles, aren't as good as the best RTR has to offer (Hornby, Sanda Kan era), and it's certainly not up to a ProScale kit - although I doubt I'd build another, the one that did get finished certainly pleases my eye. So much so that I flogged my Finney kit (to someone of this parish) way before the Finney Retirement Fund Frenzy. Curses... :O

 

For the record, I hope they do get it right, and are suitably rewarded. However, weighing the high end announcements of the past week on current merit, I'm much more likely to cough up for a SLW Sulzer than another A4..

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Does the world really need another 4mm RTR A4?

 

steve

Considering we have yet to see an RTR rake of Coronation or Silver Jubilee coaches (leaving aside Golden Age), perhaps the answer is "maybe."

 

I like the model, but it remains to be seen if Dapol can make this one work. I'm tempted to save up for it though.

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While about it, if you care to mention that the roll under of the valance at the front is WRONG! as it is on pretty much all previous models: it should follow the radius of the cylinder cladding and radically changes the appearance. There's not a hint of a crisp edge in the bottom of the valancing above the bogie wheels, but rather the turn under of a smooth curve. It's possible to do considerably better than what Dapol are showing.

 

 

 

The real test of shape will be if Dapol do a de-skirted version, where any compromise around the cylinder area will be more apparent. I'm thinking of the way Hornby took the skirts straight down without tucking them under the cylinders - totally unnecessary in plastic as, once a curve has been imparted to them, the plastic flexes enough to clear the cylinders when the body is removed. With diecast metal it will be a different story... 

 

The issue with the valances is a problem on all models; for the fully valanced version, it is needed to allow the bogie to clear the skirting round curves. The other option would be a 'cut out' as Hornby Dublo adopted, which visually would be worse. However for the un-valanced version, there is no reason why the cylinder covers can't curve round the cylinder, in theory. However presumably there are limits to the tooling and ability to 'eject' such an undercut. The other option would be the increase the thickness of plastic, to effectively make about 40% of the cylinder diameter integral with the body for a simple lift off and no undercut; how this would work in terms of injection moulding I don't know, I'm not a production engineer! Might this be easier to do in thicker diecast than thinner plastic... Either way, not an issue for the LNER models as they have full valances and need bogie clearence.

O/T.

For me the biggest problem with the un-valanced Hornby version is the 'gap' between the shallow cylinder cover and the 'rounded' cylinder bottom - Bachmann at least have a square cylinder bottom which reduces the visual impact. Anway, this is O/T and is repeated myself from previous comments on the Hornby model.

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It has been said that I have A4 compulsive purchase disorder. When I saw the first news items on the Dapol A4s I was intrigued about how they would get all this gadgetry to work, but there is plenty of room in that body. Interesting to note that the Hornby live steamers had many of the features listed.

 

The close up pictures do show a certain overstatement of detail on the model. The structure on the blue tender top at the front is probably supposed to represent the canvas cover between engine & tender that was (nearly) always present. The handrails have knobs to hold them rather than stanchions - knobs are OK for the tender and cab. The front end is too curved side to side: the upper hinge for the codes mouth couldn't work. The lack of tow-under at the front valences has already been discussed.

 

I have made four A4s to date - my second one hewn from a Lonestar casting)- and am currently working on a streamlined P2. The dynamic curves of a streamliner are not trivial things to copy. I do hope Richard gets it right.

 

Tim

post-13388-0-48631200-1449013255_thumb.jpeg

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To answer the question "why?"

 

Because Dapol have taken a commercial decision that they can get 2000 models into peoples' showcases and turn in a profit.

 

I don't know if they can, but all credit to them for trying.  Wrong scale for me and I haven't £400 to play with..

 

Les

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Kidding is asking if the simulated steam is going to appear noticably before the sound of the whistle when the model is at the far end of the loft. :jester:

What is the difference in time of flight for light and sound over 25ft? Perhaps someone can crank up the voltage on a static grass tea strainer thingy and see if they can generate 4mm lightning. Then they could time the difference using their smart phones and tell Dapol what time delay is required to achieve your perfectly reasonable modelling objective.

 

Adrian

 

Ough

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Considering we have yet to see an RTR rake of Coronation or Silver Jubilee coaches (leaving aside Golden Age), perhaps the answer is "maybe."

 

I like the model, but it remains to be seen if Dapol can make this one work. I'm tempted to save up for it though.

A point about the Golden Age Silver Jubilee r-t-r coach set.I have been given to understand that they are restricted by radius considerations.They are also heavy.Has anyone run one with,for instance,a Hornby A4 which I suspect might struggle with it ? Obviously,aGolden Age A4 would not. Thus there is conceivably a place for a Dapol Black Label version.A4....unless Hornby bite the bullet and surprise us by doing a set to run with their silver streaks.

It is innovative.If they get the crucial business of shape correct,why are we sceptical ? Dapol's shout....their decision.Can we not perhaps add some voices of encouragement ? We are indulging in the national sport of naysaying,I'm afraid.Some of us seem to want them to fail.

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A point about the Golden Age Silver Jubilee r-t-r coach set.I have been given to understand that they are restricted by radius considerations.They are also heavy.Has anyone run one with,for instance,a Hornby A4 which I suspect might struggle with it ? Obviously,aGolden Age A4 would not. Thus there is conceivably a place for a Dapol Black Label version.A4....unless Hornby bite the bullet and surprise us by doing a set to run with their silver streaks.

It is innovative.If they get the crucial business of shape correct,why are we sceptical ? Dapol's shout....their decision.Can we not perhaps add some voices of encouragement ? We are indulging in the national sport of naysaying,I'm afraid.Some of us seem to want them to fail.

        I doubt if many want them to fail, why would they its in everybody's interest that any item is made well .

       The problem they have they want £400 for a Loco that at the moment isn't as good as one you can get for £150 plus the cost/quality of a unknown  Sound chip and Smoke generator. Innovative or just add on gimmicks, the buyer decides on that one.

      They should have kept quiet until a production version had been made.  Time will tell if they get the Loco right or its a total disaster !!

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The way I see it is a Golden age A4 is the Rolls Royce and that works out about $2500 Australian

Hornby and Baccy are about $250 - 280 Australian

And This Dapol will come out to about $800 Australian.

 

As much as I'd love one. There,s no way I could afford a Golden Age A4 - (well I could I suppose but there would be no food or electricity for a few months) or any other Loco purchases for a couple of Years

I could however possibly forgo 3 New Hornby's and maybe get one of these, although that would just about be the Loco Budget for most of a year.

 

Perhaps when they arrive these Just might look as good or even slightly  Better than a Hornby and if they can pull a full rake of Kit built or GA Coaches then they just might be Perfect for someone. I think We will just have to see how it performs on Track. As well as the final looks.

It Could be that Dapol has judged it Perfectly. Especially if it performs anything near like a GA does.

Either way Good luck to them, I hope they do well. If they sell a boatload, well maybe they'll do something else down the track!

I'll just wait and see on this I think.

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I doubt if many want them to fail, why would they its in everybody's interest that any item is made well .

       The problem they have they want £400 for a Loco that at the moment isn't as good as one you can get for £150 plus the cost/quality of a unknown  Sound chip and Smoke generator. Innovative or just add on gimmicks, the buyer decides on that one.

      They should have kept quiet until a production version had been made.  Time will tell if they get the Loco right or its a total disaster !!

And I still would like to hear from anyone here who has run a Hornby A4 with a Golden Age artic set.Yes of course you can buy one for £150.For me,and perhaps some others,the crucial question is .....will it haul a prototypical Silver Jubilee set ? Given the specs of the Dapol version,then it probably will. Hornby?

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And I still would like to hear from anyone here who has run a Hornby A4 with a Golden Age artic set.Yes of course you can buy one for £150.For me,and perhaps some others,the crucial question is .....will it haul a prototypical Silver Jubilee set ? Given the specs of the Dapol version,then it probably will. Hornby?

        My Hornby A4's pull my Brass 7 coach kit built Silver Jubilee set without any problems.

        How many people own a Golden age Coach set or Locos  on here anyway? The only I have ever read about one Loco a while ago , I believe it  maybe either on TW's Little Bytham or Peterborough North layouts ? I would imagine most sit in boxes or Display cases anyway.

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        My Hornby A4's pull my Brass 7 coach kit built Silver Jubilee set without any problems.

        How many people own a Golden age Coach set or Locos  on here anyway? The only I have ever read about one Loco a while ago , I believe it  maybe either on TW's Little Bytham or Peterborough North layouts ? I would imagine most sit in boxes or Display cases anyway.

And regrettably,if someone does not produce a viable r-t-r set,the current crop of silver A4's will remain display case cuties....but that's not the point,is it. It still doesn't address the question.The Golden Age set is the only r-t-r on the market at this moment,no matter how many own them.

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You can't possibly have too many A4s!

 

Les

 

(at least not until every modeller has a complete set of 35, or 34 if modelling BR)

In my case, that will be the week after hell freezes over. :jester:

 

I don't have any, and the only one I would buy would be 'Kingfisher' in late BR condition as it ran on rail-tours on the Southern Region. 

 

However, if you really like 'pointy jobs' you will surely want all the locos in all the liveries with and without valances and double chimneys as appropriate which should get you well past the 150 mark!

 

John

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And regrettably,if someone does not produce a viable r-t-r set,the current crop of silver A4's will remain display case cuties....but that's not the point,is it. It still doesn't address the question.The Golden Age set is the only r-t-r on the market at this moment,no matter how many own them.

Splitting hairs time!! :locomotive: 

 The question was can a Hornby A4 pull a prototypical Silver Jubilee set and the answers is yes. I don't see any reason why my Brass kit built set would be any lighter than Golden Age version and perhaps mine is better designed and goes around corners as well ? . I have heard rumours that they don't like bends either ? perhaps they suffer from dodgy running bogies as well ? either problem wouldn't help running or the poor Loco trying to pull them.

 

As to Silver a4's they worked on Teak sets as well as the Jubilee, so plenty of r.t.r around for them to pull already.

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Splitting hairs time!! :locomotive: 

 The question was can a Hornby A4 pull a prototypical Silver Jubilee set and the answers is yes. I don't see any reason why my Brass kit built set would be any lighter than Golden Age version and perhaps mine is better designed and goes around corners as well ? . I have heard rumours that they don't like bends either ? perhaps they suffer from dodgy running bogies as well ? either problem wouldn't help running or the poor Loco trying to pull them.

 

As to Silver a4's they worked on Teak sets as well as the Jubilee, so plenty of r.t.r around for them to pull already.

Yes,I am aware that they hauled teak sets as well as the dedicated rakes of arctics,thank you.NoI am not splitting hairs ,although fortunately I do still have a full set. Your set is I am sure top notch but it's the result of your skills and not a commercially produced one which we have yet to see,other than the one discussed above.At least one RMWebber walked away with one from Warley on Sat.very pleased with his purchase,apparently.I'd be interested to know what he puts in front of it and how it performs on a layout with modest radius curves....let's say min. 36" ?.Both the Hornby R2965 and the later Railroad Silver versions are very good,I will not dispute that.For the moment,the Golden Age set remains the only one on the market.
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