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Kadee shuffle


theflyingspanner
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Well, the Lokprogrammer wasn't up to much, for some reason Widows 10 isn't recognising it as a com port.

I did get DecoderPro working with my SPROG so that made things a lot easier.

 

Firstly, doing the uncoupling sequence from a hand throttle gave the same results so its unlikely to be anything to do with TC.

After reading the Loksound decoder with DecoderPro i managed to strip the uncoupling sound from the uncoupling function.

Hey presto, it now works perfectly.

Allocating the uncoupling sound to another Function key and activating it just before the uncoupling function messes it up again.

Strange.

 

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6 hours ago, tender said:

Ok, I have the Kadee Shuffle working on my Loksound V4 with the sound turned off.

 

Under Train Controller the train pulls into the station and does a final crawl up to an IR sensor where the train stops.

After a few seconds the kadee shuffle is initiated and the loco pushes back 10mm placing the kadee over the magnet and then forward 15mm leaving the coaches behind. Works perfectly ever time.

 

Problem is when the sound is switched on. The train pulls up to the IR sensor and stops as usual but then the push back is randomly between 0-7mm so uncoupling is very hit and miss, mostly miss. The pull forward doesn't seem to be effected.

 

Have I missed something?

 

Ray

 

Very interesting. I've also been playing around with this on Bif's Lok V4 WD sound decoders. I  used a lokprogramner to set it up. Initially I added it to F Key 4_via logical options, however the buffer clash option on (F4) requires setting on once the loco is moving, to get the clash sound once it stops, so F4 has to be switched off and then on again to get the coupling sound.

I'm presently using it on F16 for now.

For the shuffle to work it's important not to change the loco direction after it stops (for those wishing to try it)

 

Settings I find work ok with sound on: (not compared it with sound off)

Speed 5

Push time 150 to 175

Move time 244 to 255

The push/move time setting will vary a little from loco to loco depending on the motors and decoder settings.

 

 

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, tender said:

Well, the Lokprogrammer wasn't up to much, for some reason Widows 10 isn't recognising it as a com port.

I did get DecoderPro working with my SPROG so that made things a lot easier.

 

Firstly, doing the uncoupling sequence from a hand throttle gave the same results so its unlikely to be anything to do with TC.

After reading the Loksound decoder with DecoderPro i managed to strip the uncoupling sound from the uncoupling function.

Hey presto, it now works perfectly.

Allocating the uncoupling sound to another Function key and activating it just before the uncoupling function messes it up again.

Strange.

 

 

OK,  you've got the programming side running and have ruled out most of the issues.   That all sounds good. 

 

I have a suggestion for TC - what happens if you mute sound before uncoupling shuffle, then un-mute when done ?    How does that sound on the automated bits of the layout ?   Would you really notice it happening ?  

 

Alternative suggestions

- what happens if you move the uncoupling waltz behaviour to a different output, eg. Aux8 or Aux 4 (assuming you're not using them for lights, etc.) ? 

 

 

- Nigel

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Fantastic thread I didn't realise automatic uncoupling was available !

 

Apart from Precis are there any other makes available and are they straight forward to put onto locos?

 

Is Precis straight forward ?

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Chilly said:

Fantastic thread I didn't realise automatic uncoupling was available !

 

Apart from Precis are there any other makes available and are they straight forward to put onto locos?

 

Is Precis straight forward ?

 

 

 

Most of this thread isn't about fitting couplings to locos/stock.   Its about automating the "shuffle" movements that various systems need.   So, you don't need a special coupler on a loco to use the information in the thread, it works just fine with normal couplers and track-side magnets/actuators. 

 

There are numerous makers of coupling devices for locos if you search.    German and Austrian firms have offered these for over a decade for various systems (do your searches in German :-)  ).   

Or make your own,  I started doing that a dozen or more years ago.  If it works on 2mm scale shunting locos, it can work on anything.

 

 

-  Nigel

 

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  • 4 months later...

Hi All,

 

i am am trying to get this to work on a Class 70, which according to CV250 is housing a MX644 zimo sound decoder.

 

i have read through the zimo manual and see the CV 115 & 116 need to change to allow the shuffle.

 

but I cannot work out how to assign a function.   Note the I am using DecoderPro to read the entire chip setting. I am also unsure if I have a current sound for uncoupling. 

 

Chris

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1 hour ago, Novco007 said:

Hi All,

 

i am am trying to get this to work on a Class 70, which according to CV250 is housing a MX644 zimo sound decoder.

 

i have read through the zimo manual and see the CV 115 & 116 need to change to allow the shuffle.

 

but I cannot work out how to assign a function.   Note the I am using DecoderPro to read the entire chip setting. I am also unsure if I have a current sound for uncoupling. 

 

 

You need to select a function output (one of the numerous wires and/or contact pads on the decoder).  To keep it simple, pick one which isn't connected to a light or other motorised feature in the loco.  (Unless you've fitted motorised coupling devices, in which case map to those).   

Make that function output's behaviour to be "uncoupling" (rather than "normal light" or "flashing light", etc.. ).    You'll find that on the "lights" tab in DecoderPro. 

 

Map that function output to a function key of your choice if the default mapping in your sound-provider's setup doesn't work for you.  Use whichever of several function mapping options you prefer - "Function Map", "Alt Function Map" or "Swiss Mapping". 

 

 

Worry about sounds later, they can be matched up. 

 

 

- Nigel

 

 

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1 hour ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

You need to select a function output (one of the numerous wires and/or contact pads on the decoder).  To keep it simple, pick one which isn't connected to a light or other motorised feature in the loco.  (Unless you've fitted motorised coupling devices, in which case map to those).   

Make that function output's behaviour to be "uncoupling" (rather than "normal light" or "flashing light", etc.. ).    You'll find that on the "lights" tab in DecoderPro. 

 

Map that function output to a function key of your choice if the default mapping in your sound-provider's setup doesn't work for you.  Use whichever of several function mapping options you prefer - "Function Map", "Alt Function Map" or "Swiss Mapping". 

 

 

Worry about sounds later, they can be matched up. 

 

 

- Nigel

 

 

Thanks Nigel, i’ll give that a go tomorrow.

 

Chris

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16 hours ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

You need to select a function output (one of the numerous wires and/or contact pads on the decoder).  To keep it simple, pick one which isn't connected to a light or other motorised feature in the loco.  (Unless you've fitted motorised coupling devices, in which case map to those).   

Make that function output's behaviour to be "uncoupling" (rather than "normal light" or "flashing light", etc.. ).    You'll find that on the "lights" tab in DecoderPro. 

 

Map that function output to a function key of your choice if the default mapping in your sound-provider's setup doesn't work for you.  Use whichever of several function mapping options you prefer - "Function Map", "Alt Function Map" or "Swiss Mapping". 

 

 

Worry about sounds later, they can be matched up. 

 

 

- Nigel

 

 

Interestingly,

 

I have a tab called Shunt/Uncouple Uncouple.png.ca4664d72d572c754d9c55175e777465.png and it shows the settings that I manually added to CV 115 & 116.

 

What I'm not sure is that it shows a Shunt Function, that I have assigned to F14 for the moment, which, according to my train instructions refers to the sound 'RPM'. So I am assuming that is for the Shunt feature that removes inertia, but what confuses me is the fact it shows the settings for the shuffle

 

Now the Loco also has Lights and Cab Lights, Lights F0 and Cab F8, which I can see on the Alt Function Map Tab, So I can see that Physical Function 1,2 and 3 are used, whcih I think is the max physically Functions for the MX644 Soun chipAltFunctionMap.png.0edb43be6577db7b630d49bf51ed9113.png

Under Lights, I am going to choose function FO2 as the FunctionLights.png.9d2cf7a4284a727aae48f9b7d7762df8.png

 

I also think that the chip is limted to 20 Functions (0-19), so I am going to look at using F4 (has a short toot on that). So if I use the SW Mappings, they will be something like this SWMappings.png.0f1ef5405c0b753c716d5bae9ab7812c.png

Fingers crossed!

 

As a matter off completeness I believe my chip has v33.10 installed  (CV7=33 & CV65=10)

 

Chris

FunctionMapTab.png

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So I can confirm that F4 activated the uncouple shuffle!  But I need to adjust the distance it move backwards

 

F14 does indeed activate the shunt mode, so removes the inertia.

 

Next is to flash the chip with a newer version of the fireware and see if the Functions increase from 20 to 29.

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The grouping of features on the tabs in JMRI are a bit "all over the shop".   Its all ancient history: as features appeared they were added where it seemed sensible, or convinient, at the time.  But that "sensible" may not look quite as sensible when some new things appeared later. Some of the features are over 12 years old (eg. uncoupler movement stuff).   

 

The DecoderPro Zimo files really do need a major re-arrangement of the tabs, what's on them, how it's presented and grouped.  But its a big job to do, made more complicated by a need to avoid breaking things for any existing users.   And Zimo don't make it easy to be "simple"; eg.  there are four or five different methods for function mapping, all work, all done for good reason, but they've never withdrawn older methods as new (usually better) ones come along.  

 

And the absent of higher functions on a decoder in JMRI/DecoderPro may also be a JMRI update issue.  Not every new feature gets added really quickly, because updates are down to whatever a couple of volunteers notice or work out what to do.   (very occasionally, those volunteers include me, but I've not updated anything Zimo-related for a while). 

 

 

Your decoder, the MX644, has 10 real function outputs (front light, rear light, and FO1 to FO8).  They may not all be connected to the connector in your loco.  Some may be "logic" rather than "full power".   Detailed in the Zimo manual.  

 

 

- Nigel  

 

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Thanks Nigel and to all that put together such excellent software for us novices to use.

 

I picked up the Bachmann Class 70 at the Hornby Show a few years ago and it was already sound equiped, not sure if that was OEM or aftermarket (need to go to the loft and find the original box)  

 

I have a Z21, which I believe can update the Zimo chips, so that is my next port of call, although I don't use that and now use the MERG command station and controllers

 

I'd also like to make all my loco's sounds consistant, especially as I use a normally controller, so having everything similar would be nice also, but thats for another time and another thread!


Chris

 

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  • 3 months later...

Long story VERY short, I have always said that I would never go DCC but having sat in on a Zoom virtual home layout tour a couple of days ago I am starting to think that there might actually be some sense in biting the bullet.  As a result I started to wander through the DCC forum and found this thread.  By the way, I understand Kadee coupling use as I have fitted up at least two layouts to use them in the past and as well as for my own edification the guy whose layout we viewed is interested in using them and said he wants to look in detail at how we use them on the Club layout  that I have fitted with uncoupling magnets.

 

So, stupid question time...

 

What on earth is the Kadee Shuffle?  Is it just that little "dance" that you have to do to force an uncouple or is there more to it than that?   If so, I have never heard it referred to as the "Shuffle" before.

 

Reading the thread I get the impression that you can actually set up a DCC "function" that sequentially:

  • sets the loco into shunt mode (rather than normal running with inertia)
  • backs up a very short distance (millimeters) to do the uncouple over a burried magnet
  • sets the loco forward again free of the train
  • cancels shunt mode

Am I reading that correctly?

 

And then:  In a couple of the posts here I came across talk of servo activation of Kadee couplings allowing the Trip Pin dropper to be clipped off.  In all the posts that mention it I haven't seen a simple explanation of how it works, only that it is possible.  Could someone kindly explain how that works please?

 

Thanks

 

Elliott

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10 minutes ago, DutyDruid said:

Long story VERY short, I have always said that I would never go DCC but having sat in on a Zoom virtual home layout tour a couple of days ago I am starting to think that there might actually be some sense in biting the bullet.  As a result I started to wander through the DCC forum and found this thread.  By the way, I understand Kadee coupling use as I have fitted up at least two layouts to use them in the past and as well as for my own edification the guy whose layout we viewed is interested in using them and said he wants to look in detail at how we use them on the Club layout  that I have fitted with uncoupling magnets.

 

So, stupid question time...

 

What on earth is the Kadee Shuffle?  Is it just that little "dance" that you have to do to force an uncouple or is there more to it than that?   If so, I have never heard it referred to as the "Shuffle" before.

 

Reading the thread I get the impression that you can actually set up a DCC "function" that sequentially:

  • sets the loco into shunt mode (rather than normal running with inertia)
  • backs up a very short distance (millimeters) to do the uncouple over a burried magnet
  • sets the loco forward again free of the train
  • cancels shunt mode

Am I reading that correctly?

 

And then:  In a couple of the posts here I came across talk of servo activation of Kadee couplings allowing the Trip Pin dropper to be clipped off.  In all the posts that mention it I haven't seen a simple explanation of how it works, only that it is possible.  Could someone kindly explain how that works please?

 

Thanks

 

Elliott

image.png.20fa734f72dced18ff761a688c0b8a73.pngThis is one way for sale on ebay

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44 minutes ago, DutyDruid said:

Long story VERY short, I have always said that I would never go DCC but having sat in on a Zoom virtual home layout tour a couple of days ago I am starting to think that there might actually be some sense in biting the bullet.  As a result I started to wander through the DCC forum and found this thread.  By the way, I understand Kadee coupling use as I have fitted up at least two layouts to use them in the past and as well as for my own edification the guy whose layout we viewed is interested in using them and said he wants to look in detail at how we use them on the Club layout  that I have fitted with uncoupling magnets.

 

So, stupid question time...

 

What on earth is the Kadee Shuffle?  Is it just that little "dance" that you have to do to force an uncouple or is there more to it than that?   If so, I have never heard it referred to as the "Shuffle" before.

 

Reading the thread I get the impression that you can actually set up a DCC "function" that sequentially:

  • sets the loco into shunt mode (rather than normal running with inertia)
  • backs up a very short distance (millimeters) to do the uncouple over a burried magnet
  • sets the loco forward again free of the train
  • cancels shunt mode

Am I reading that correctly?

 

And then:  In a couple of the posts here I came across talk of servo activation of Kadee couplings allowing the Trip Pin dropper to be clipped off.  In all the posts that mention it I haven't seen a simple explanation of how it works, only that it is possible.  Could someone kindly explain how that works please?

 

Thanks

 

Elliott

 

First question on Kadee Shuffle,  yes, you've described it correctly, its the back-forwards movement necessary to open the coupler when over a magnet.   

*Some* decoders support the movement sequence you describe.  It is sometimes called the "coupling waltz" in decoder manuals.   Those I know to support it are ESU, Zimo, CT  (in general the methods don't disable inertia, you build that into the movement).   There may be other decoders that support the feature.   
When setup, you drive the loco to a stop, press a single function key, and watch the loco move back and forwards, which can be done over a track magnet.   If you have a motor-driven uncoupler on the loco that will operate at after the buffering up movement, and hold open until the loco has pulled clear.   The movement distances, time, speed, etc.. are set in various CVs, and are slightly different in each decoder maker's implementation.  

 

Example of mine from at least 10 years ago.  Though the couplers are not Kadee's the movement is done with the shuffle/waltz method  (and proves if you're mad enough, you can have motor driven uncouplers in a 2mm/N shunting loco): 

 

 

Second question,  there are numerous ways to operate a Kadee from an on-board motor.  A Servo is one option, but often a bit big.  There are solutions using solenoid coils (I've made one, but not got a video of it), or small conventional motors (4 or 6mm dia, from a pager vibrating motor) which pull a string.   Example of a OO version from the chaps at the McKinley  here.  The McKinley is a huge layout, and consequently they are really careful about using reliable equipment : 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Nigelcliffe said:

there are numerous ways to operate a Kadee from an on-board motor.

Precimodels have a commercial offering here:

 

https://www.precimodels.com/en/

 

I've not used these yet, but I aim to try them out when time & budget permit. The idea of uncoupling a loco anywhere on the layout by means of pressing a Function key on the handset appeals to me.

 

Yours,  Mike.

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9 hours ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

First question on Kadee Shuffle,  yes, you've described it correctly, its the back-forwards movement necessary to open the coupler when over a magnet.   

 

 

Thanks Nigel, I have never heard that expression used before - and that includes spending nearly three years operating and DCC converting an N Gauge basement layout in the US in the 90s.

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18 hours ago, Nigelcliffe said:

Though the couplers are not Kadee's the movement is done with the shuffle/waltz method  (and proves if you're mad enough, you can have motor driven uncouplers in a 2mm/N shunting loco)

Interestingly Bachmann are proposing to fit digitally-controlled couplings to a model of an N gauge German "Kleinlok" (BR332/333), announced at Nuremberg Toy Fair in 2020 in their Liliput range. That's quite a bit smaller than an "04”, and in 1:160 rather than 1:148 too.

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2 minutes ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

Interestingly Bachmann are proposing to fit digitally-controlled couplings to a model of an N gauge German "Kleinlok" (BR332/333), announced at Nuremberg Toy Fair in 2020 in their Liliput range. That's quite a bit smaller than an "04”, and in 1:160 rather than 1:148 too.

 

I'll send them a "infringement notice" for my work of a dozen years ago  :D...     I could fit them in smaller locos, the mechanism I built fits in the space created by removing the plastic housing for the NEM coupler socket.   

 

- Nigel

 

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48 minutes ago, RobinofLoxley said:

Can I just ask how much success anyone has had with a Precis models system. Looks straightforward but I am concerned about the whole thing being controlled by a piece of string. Even a decent piece of string...

 

 

 

See video above of the McKinley....

 

 

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2 hours ago, RobinofLoxley said:

Can I just ask how much success anyone has had with a Precis models system. Looks straightforward but I am concerned about the whole thing being controlled by a piece of string. Even a decent piece of string...

 

 

I'm lucky enough to be a member of the McKinley operating team and can confirm they work and are very reliable.

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