Down_Under Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 (edited) Hi All, A little request for some help from overseas. I've been trying to get back into the hobby for a little while and design up a few etches etc of the odder, small little industrial locomotives. Like most projects a little bit of slow burner, not helped by the fact 1) work, 2) landrovers get in the way and 3) that I chose something to model that I can't find too many drawings off, but there is a preserved example. So far I have started with trying to get the basic dimensions right - most of these can be guestimated from chair spacing and height of wagons - well that is what I have done and have this so far: The only info I have from http://www.emus.co.uk/spdn.htmis that the wheel diameter is 2ft 9". The rest has been guesitmated from the 21t hopper that appears to be being shunted by the loco on http://www.geoffspages.co.uk/raildiary/emidsodd_htm_files/111.jpg From this I estimate that the wheel spacing is 6ft and overall height a little shy of the max height of a 21t ~10ft 6". I have estimated that the total length is 12ft from photos. Now information I am lacking is: Overall height Door height Height of bonnets Width Length I would also be interested to see any photos off the running gear in detail - brake arrangement etc if anyone has any? Any help, feedback and comments much appreciated. Cheers, James EDIT - very basic spelling error. Edited December 4, 2015 by Down_Under 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOCJACOB Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Looks pretty similar to the battery job at Guardbridge Paper Mill (covered in the St Andrews railway book) and the SRPS Museum have similar one too from Fairfield Ship yard Glasgow, detailed on the website Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted December 3, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 3, 2015 These were a 'standard' design from English Electric though most of mechanicals were built by outside companies. They were offered as a battery locomotive or as a 'straight' electric. As with many industrial locomotives they were often fitted with a variety of different cabs, the only consistency being the underframe and the bonnets. Railway Bylines ran a photographic feature on these locomotives last year though I don't know which issue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
avonside1563 Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 We've got Spondon No.2 at Foxfield, here's a link to the stocklist for it http://homepage.ntlworld.com/foxfield/spondon_no2.htm If I get chance I'll run a tape measure over it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 The wagon in that linked photo appears to be a 24.5 ton hopper (later HUO) - that may affects your calculations... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGH Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 (edited) The drawing below is from an English Electric publication dated March 1924 and entitled "Specification for Shunting and Industrial Electric Locomotive, Type No.3". The only dimensions given are: Minimum Wheelbase - 6 ft Width of frame for standard gauge locomotive - 7 ft 3 in Height of cab above rail level, approximately - 11 ft Length overall, approximately - 20 ft It states that the locomotive can be arranged for battery or trolley working, or both. Unfortunately there is no scale or dimensions on the drawing and it does seem to have slightly different proportions to the Spondon loco, but it may help with some of the details. Edited December 3, 2015 by PGH 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kazmierczak Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 The wagon in that linked photo appears to be a 24.5 ton hopper (later HUO) - that may affects your calculations... Yes, HUOs were the invariable type of wagon used on the Gedling Colly - Spondon coal flows, until replaced by HAAs towards the very end of the traffic flow. That's why I always vote for a HUO in the "wish list" polls each year. Still waiting.......................... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Down_Under Posted December 4, 2015 Author Share Posted December 4, 2015 (edited) Thank you all for your replies, very much appreciated, and such a wealth of information. I should perhaps change the title to reflect the class rather than one particular prototype. You are all quite correct, it is a HUO - I had a look back through my notes I had made - I had used a dis 1/148 or 1/154 since that is what the wagon in the Geoff's pages most resembled. Thanks for the confirmation. I also note that in Modelling the Coal Industry, by Rob Johnson there is one of these locomotives used at the Sunderland power station, p.75 from memory. Will track down the issue of Bylines magazine. Little more common than I thought. PGH - thanks for the image, what a find! Yes, it looks a little larger - slightly more overhand past the wheels, but wheelbase looks identical and so do the cabs, so plenty to work with there. Should be able to scale image from the dimensions given. Avonside - any measurements would be much appreciated, I had not forgot that there was one that the foxfield, seems a little more accessible than the one at Coventry. I'm not sure I'll be in the UK for at least 6 months, poissble longer. Once again many thanks James Edited December 4, 2015 by Down_Under Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall5 Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 Is this link to a preserved battery electric version any use? http://www.ribblesteam.org.uk/exhibits/diesel/23-english-electric-ee788-1930 Cheers, Ray. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 (edited) It appears that No1 is at the Electric Railway Museum near Coventry (down the road from me). http://www.electricrailwaymuseum.co.uk/collect.htm I'm not sure if it was there when I last took photos there though. but theres photos from that visit here: Hope they're of help. Edited December 5, 2015 by Kelly 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin_m Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 Thank you all for your replies, very much appreciated, and such a wealth of information. I should perhaps change the title to reflect the class rather than one particular prototype. You are all quite correct, it is a HUO - I had a look back through my notes I had made - I had used a dis 1/148 or 1/154 since that is what the wagon in the Geoff's pages most resembled. Thanks for the confirmation. I also note that in Modelling the Coal Industry, by Rob Johnson there is one of these locomotives used at the Sunderland power station, p.75 from memory. Will track down the issue of Bylines magazine. Little more common than I thought. PGH - thanks for the image, what a find! Yes, it looks a little larger - slightly more overhand past the wheels, but wheelbase looks identical and so do the cabs, so plenty to work with there. Should be able to scale image from the dimensions given. Avonside - any measurements would be much appreciated, I had not forgot that there was one that the foxfield, seems a little more accessible than the one at Coventry. I'm not sure I'll be in the UK for at least 6 months, poissble longer. Once again many thanks James James, The Scottish Railway Preservation Society site at http://www.srpsmuseum.org.uk/10014.htm says that: All had a centre cab, and sloping-top compartments at each end. When constructed as a battery locomotive, these could be extended as required to accommodate the batteries. Presumably these locos didn't need many batteries, since they operated much of the time under the wire. Nos 2 and No. 3 seem very similar, but at some time they all seem to have had replacement windows, wth rubber surrounds, fitted. The English Electric PNL4 pantograph from Judith Edge seems a good match, although, again, there seem to be detail changes through time. What thoughts have you had about the drive, since I don't know anyoune doing a 6ft w/b? Can High Level do a special? regards, martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Avonside - any measurements would be much appreciated, I had not forgot that there was one that the foxfield, seems a little more accessible than the one at Coventry. I'm not sure I'll be in the UK for at least 6 months, poissble longer. Once again many thanks James The one at Coventry is probably fairly accessible. You'd likely need to email the museum and arrange a viewing day, which I'm sure they'd probably oblidge. It is located near Coventry Airport, which isn't too far from Coventry city centre or the NEC/Birmingham International Airport. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Down_Under Posted December 7, 2015 Author Share Posted December 7, 2015 Martin - well having bought the Judith Edge Harton #10 loco it has been designed for a high level chassis set at 24mm / 6ft so I'm led to believe there is one in the pipe line, so that would be my chosen method of propulsion. I've also a couple of black beetles set at 24mm wheel spacing also. So they are my thoughts on drive line at the moment. I've also a RT models Sentinel in the way - be interesting to see what WB that is. Was planning on using the PNL4 pantograph, but I also found a site in the US that makes trolley poles (proto87 shop), which maybe be a tad underscore, but barely noticeable me thinks.If I decide to be brave and model that form Different window types is something that can be modelled I think, some seem to have square corners while others are rounded. Is that the difference between rubberised vs not? It does seem that there are quiet a few still in existence in various forms - Ribblehead, Scottish precaution society, Coventry Electric Railway museum and the Fixfield railway. Kelly - thank you very much for the links, photos are invaluable - good side on shots in there. I'd seen a couple floating about the net, so nice to find the actual source. Ray - yes, I think this looks like an earlier version of the type. Annoyingly when I grew up I probably visited this loco as a kid when I lived in Southport (at Steamport) and never made it to Preston as if moved away by that point. Once again info is fantastic and so are all the comments, thank you.Shoukd find some time to do some more drawing this week - engine conversion on the Landy almost complete :/ James 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
5050 Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 I saw a B&W photo of the 2 Spondon locos in the Yellow livery amongst the Gordon Coltas Collection at Manchester last Saturday. I suppose you copuld get in touch with them via the show organiser? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Dava Posted December 27, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 27, 2015 I'm interested in modelling the Type 3 battery variant of the EE/Dick Kerr Electric loco, as in the one preserved in the Ribble Steam Railway museum. The drawing from PGH in #6 is useful but the battery only locos had lower bonnets and taller cab front windows. Does anyone know of a drawing of this type? Could be useful for small shunting layouts, eg in paper (as in Guard Bridge, above) or defence (WD had them). The Blackpool & Fleetwood Tramway (Electric) loco also looks similar. Dava Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcD Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 I have been reasently asked if we (Furness Railway Wagon Co) would be interested in producing a kit and aready to run version of the loco in 7mm and possibly 4mm . If this of interest to anyone please can people say and we can start work on it. Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Dava Posted December 28, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 28, 2015 I'll hold my hand up and say I suggested this to Marc, so naturally I'd be interested in one in 7mm scale. The battery electric version (similar to the one now preserved at Ribble Steam Railway) ran in papermills, breweries, munitions works, power stations and engineering so a useful all-round shunter. I think it could work better as a simple kit than a scratchbuild. Building a power bogie in 7mm would not be too hard, Roxey do an ideal wheelset and the cost of motor/wheels/gears would be quite affordable. Dava Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Down_Under Posted December 28, 2015 Author Share Posted December 28, 2015 (edited) Well I for one would be keen for 4mm scale version. I'm not sure what medium you were planning to use for the superstructure ( I was thinking etched brass/NS). Might be an idea to provide a few different louvre options so different versions could be created? If not to difficult to incorporate. I've not got much furher than rescaling the drawing provided by PGH based on the dimensions provided, and rescaling my own work. J Edited December 28, 2015 by Down_Under Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted December 28, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 28, 2015 I too would welcome a 4mm version. Perhaps the likes of Oxford Diecast would produce a static model that could be easily motorised using one of the many motor bogies available today. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Down_Under Posted January 2, 2016 Author Share Posted January 2, 2016 (edited) I'm my quest to find out a little more about these locos via the Internet it seems that the " Spondon Type" was used quite commonly by the CEGB across units operations in both overhead electric and battery modes, there's is one I believe preserved at Manchester from Bolton. So that makes, Spondon, Bolton, Sunderland - are there any others? I have lost the saved linked but someone going by the pusedoname of "Blackmagic" on Flickr has some great shots of those at Bolton, Spondon and a handful of other types of battery electric locos at other power stations (e.g Stourport). https://www.flickr.com/photos/61188429@N06/8105164294 This design also seems to have been used in other industries - notably brickworks - see this thread. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/31785-bedfordshire-brickworks-electric-railway-system/ And the already mentioned Glasgow Docks. Slightly different bonnet design under the window - lacks semi circle cut out under window (bonnets not hinged?) http://www.srpsmuseum.org.uk/10014.htm The one at Preston - Ribble Steam - is of a slightly different design as some have already pointed out - deeper Windows and bonnets of a slightly shorter design. but on the same chassis. ive started a Judith Edge kit of the Harton Locos - lovely little kit - this uses laminate sides with the detail soldered to plain sides - I was thinking of something similer for these locos should a kit come forth. Edit - Stourport not Stourbridge Edited January 2, 2016 by Down_Under Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Down_Under Posted January 4, 2016 Author Share Posted January 4, 2016 For those that are interested, found the Flickr site I was after - quite a eclectic mix of locomotives: https://www.flickr.com/photos/65480188@N07/albums/72157660508002809/with/14911457668/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Dava Posted January 4, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 4, 2016 For those that are interested, found the Flickr site I was after - quite a eclectic mix of locomotives: https://www.flickr.com/photos/65480188@N07/albums/72157660508002809/with/14911457668/ Lovely steeple cabs, Alpine critters & coke bank shunters. I see High Level Kits do a L&Y & NSR battery locos in 4mm scale. Dava Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium cg501 Posted February 14, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 14, 2016 Hi All, A little request for some help from overseas. I've been trying to get back into the hobby for a little while and design up a few etches etc of the odder, small little industrial locomotives. Like most projects a little bit of slow burner, not helped by the fact 1) work, 2) landrovers get in the way and 3) that I chose something to model that I can't find too many drawings off, but there is a preserved example. So far I have started with trying to get the basic dimensions right - most of these can be guestimated from chair spacing and height of wagons - well that is what I have done and have this so far: Spondon Line Drawing progess.JPG The only info I have from http://www.emus.co.uk/spdn.htmis that the wheel diameter is 2ft 9". The rest has been guesitmated from the 21t hopper that appears to be being shunted by the loco on http://www.geoffspages.co.uk/raildiary/emidsodd_htm_files/111.jpg From this I estimate that the wheel spacing is 6ft and overall height a little shy of the max height of a 21t ~10ft 6". I have estimated that the total length is 12ft from photos. Now information I am lacking is: Overall height Door height Height of bonnets Width Length I would also be interested to see any photos off the running gear in detail - brake arrangement etc if anyone has any? Any help, feedback and comments much appreciated. Cheers, James EDIT - very basic spelling error. Hello James Spondon 1 is part of our collection here at the Electric Railway Museum and i will look at getting the measurements you are looking for. I also have a extensive collection of pictures of both Spondon 1 & 2. Andrew Humphries Site Manager Electric Railway Museum By the way I also have a 7 1/4 gauage version 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Dava Posted February 14, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 14, 2016 Hello James Spondon 1 is part of our collection here at the Electric Railway Museum and i will look at getting the measurements you are looking for. I also have a extensive collection of pictures of both Spondon 1 & 2. Andrew Humphries Site Manager Electric Railway Museum By the way I also have a 7 1/4 gauage version Andrew, Would you post the dimensions on here please, as I'm planning to build the battery version? I've come to the conclusion they were pretty much the same except the battery version cab was a little higher. Thanks, Dava Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnst Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 The four wheeled battery and electric locos have always fascinated me.I did measure the Spondon loco at the Foxfield Railway but lost the drawings in a house move some years ago. Drawings of the EE loco built for Blackpool are available from Terry Russell also sells 0 gauge tram fittings such as trolley poles, masts and controllers.His website is www.terryrusselltrans.co.uk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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