Mystery Manchester Prairie

[5050]

I acquired this at the Manchester Show over the weekend from the members' sales stand.  In a shabby box marked 'Offers' (and warning me to be cautious because it was EM gauge!), my offer was accepted.  At first sight It was obviously going to be of some vintage (early 50's?), my first thought maybe a Graham Farish body - but it wasn't cast, it was brass.  Then I considered Sayer Chaplin - but no etched rivets etc. put paid to that.  Next was Jamieson - but did they make a Prairie kit?  Still no definitive answer and I didn't get to look at it properly until I got home.  Releasing the body from the chassis revealed the inside of the shell and my thoughts now turn to it being a quite competent 'clubman' scratchbuild, the sort of modelling that people did BITD when they wanted a particular loco which was not available heavily discounted in a blue/red box.  It would be interesting to find out who built it.  There were several GWR modellers in the Manchester Society in those days, I wonder if there is still anyone around who would know?

 

The chassis too is interesting being made from the good old standby, the heavy brass channel section.  The axles are carried in sleeves that run across the channel with oil holes - and the wheels scale off at 6' which is to big for a Prairie.  Bearing in mind that back then, the selection of wheel sizes available from the trade was limited, then these were probably the best bet to achieve the long-legged atmosphere of the prototype locos.  The wheels are all Mazak (or similar) and have 'Romford' style axles but they are very narrow treaded compared to the Romfords I have (which are all comparatively speaking much later productions).  Could they have been turned to 'Manchester Profile' or was there another wheel range around then? 

 

The motor is very interesting and I am seriously thinking that it also could be 'homemade' to fit.  It has a 'conventional' worm and gear in a 'Hornby Dublo' configuration but the brush gear, magnet, bearings etc. don't, to me at any rate, appear 'trade'.

 

As it stands, it is for 2-rail operation, with one side's wheels being rim insulated, still with 'mazak' rims, with a set of insulated wiper pickups fitted to the 'frame' side.  I am sure this was a later conversion as inside the box, along with several other oddments (including a Sayer Chaplin etch for a GWR 4000gallon tender) was a set of pickups for outside 3rd rail use.  The mounting point for this is still on the chassis - but I'm not going to convert it back!.

 

I placed it on my short length of test track (P4 - but it's close enough!) and it ground into movement.  A few spots of oil in the necessary places and it now runs back and forth quite freely, even down to a slow crawl.  However, with the body on, it does growl rather loudly, the brass body shell amplifying the sounds.

 

One of my first ideas was to tidy up the body, add detail where missing and perhaps fit it to a Comet or similar chassis.  However, this would destroy the 'naivety' of the original build so it may well remain as it is - my only EM loco.

 

Here is a general view of the loco -

 

And the chassis -

 

 

[Mark Carne]

That's an interesting old thing!

 

It rang no bells in my head what so ever,until I got to the photos of the mechanism,then,WOW!

 

The magnet is Bonds,initially sold by them for converting Bing table railway electric locos to DC operation,but also used by Bonds in their pre WW2 locos of their own manufacture,from the mid 1920s through to the war. Given that it also came with its original outside 3rd collector,my opinion is that it is pre WW2 Bonds.

 

Cheers, Mark

[5050]

That's an interesting old thing!

 

It rang no bells in my head what so ever,until I got to the photos of the mechanism,then,WOW!

 

The magnet is Bonds,initially sold by them for converting Bing table railway electric locos to DC operation,but also used by Bonds in their pre WW2 locos of their own manufacture,from the mid 1920s through to the war. Given that it also came with its original outside 3rd collector,my opinion is that it is pre WW2 Bonds.

 

Cheers, Mark

Thanks for this Mark.  Could the wheels also be Bond's?

[Mark Carne]

Personally,I think the whole loco is Bonds.

 

 

Cheers, Mark

[5050]

Thanks to everyone for the comments, info., and 'likes'.  CIMCO was the brand I was trying to think of!  I still think myself that it is an amateur scratchbuild and perhaps the further photos I've taken may show this.  The chassis channel is a nominal 1/2" - 13mm wide so OK for OO.  EM wasn't around in the 30's so if it was originally dating from that time perhaps it was converted later.  There are several washers behind the wheels spacing them out to 16.5mm B-2-B.

 

I have asked an old friend who is a long term MMRS member to try and find out anything he can about it when he next visits the clubroom.

 

I took it to the WRMS clubroom last night and ran it up and down our EM 'test track'.  Running the bare chassis certainly provoked some comments from both older members (who viewed it with nostalgia) and younger/newer members who expressed surprise that anything looking like that would actually work!

 

Here are two views from below inside the body.  The bright patches are where I rubbed it with a glass fibre brush to determine the material.  It initially looked like copper! -

 

 

And the underside of the chassis.  The mounting point for the 3rd rail skate can be seen.  This attachment must have required some insulation between the skate and the body.  The axle tubes can be seen with their oiling holes.-

 

 

The 3rd rail skate.  One of the tension 'springs' has come adrift, I'll solder it back on.  Could this be a home build or could it be a commercial item?  -

 

 

And the Sayer Chaplin etches for the GWR 4000 gallon tender.  A LOT of work to build these I reckon.  Especially forming the rounded flare along the top edge and then soldering on the top section. -

 

 

Apologies for the well chewed pencil supporting the body and chassis.  It looks as if it may be as old as the loco!

[DonB]

I think the body could be Jamieson .

I had a body kit for an OO Prairie (can't recall if it was a"Large" or "Small" type) purchased when I was very young sometime between 1955 -1960. The boiler and firebox were pre-fomed.  A crude attempt to solder the Nickle-Silver body was abandoned, and it was last seen being posted, (in it's original box) having been offered on early (Mk2) RMweb as free to a good home.

I seem to remember it going to Mozzer of this parish, if not I have no idea where it went!

[brightspark]

Hi 5050,

 

First of all EM gauge was around in the 1930's. But, to my knowledge no models exist. (not that I am an expert)

 

There are a few people, who are not members of RMweb, watching this thread with interest.

They have a couple of questions/requests. So please;

 

1. Can you take a full side on picture perhaps with a ruler next to it.

2. Can you measure the back to back.

3. if possible can you measure or post a photo of the wheel profile, again with a scale.

 

The current thinking of these guys is that the wheels could be, as already suggested, CIMCO. But in the few adverts that still exist, it seems that they only advertised OO wheels.

However there are other candidates and the wheels may also have been turned down to the Manchester profile.

 

An interesting find, that opens up some intriguing questions.

 

Andy

[Il Grifone]

That outside 3rd pickup looks like the one I have*. I don't know the make, but Romford is certainly a possibility.

 

The loco could be Jamieson kit. They were not a lot more than a set of cut out, and in some cases pre-formed, parts.

 

* Part of yet another job lot of bits....

[PatB]

That's a rather lovely old thing. Obviously it's your model and so you should do with it as you think fit, but my personal view is that it should be preserved "as-is", as a survivor from the infancy of "scale" 4 mm.

[5050]

That's a rather lovely old thing. Obviously it's your model and so you should do with it as you think fit, but my personal view is that it should be preserved "as-is", as a survivor from the infancy of "scale" 4 mm.

I've already decided that I will do just that.  I find old models like this quite intriguing and the history of old manufacturers and suppliers equally so - see my advert posts from early MRN's.  I'll do what I can regarding more detailed photos of the wheels.  The B-2-B is 16.5mm and the tread width around 2.2mm so narrower than Romfords.  Were the axle 'squares' on CIMCO the same dimensions as Romford?  Perhaps they are CIMCO wheels on Romford EM axles?  Didn't Rowell have something similar as well?

 

Next time I go to see 'Retford' I'll take it with me and ask Roy to give it a run on the Yorkshire Pullman

[Ian Kirk]

Hi,

 

A loco of this type was listed in the Hamblings range of ready built locomotive bodies in my 1951 catalogue. These were I think a bit like Jamieson kits but supplied soldered together presumably in batches.

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

[5050]

As requested, some photos of the wheels and a closer 'inside' shot.

 

The driving (and a trailing) wheel -

 

 

And a detail of the flange profile.  Quite a bit of wear evident!   The mounting point for the outside 3rd skate is still shiny.

 

 

The body inside with evidence of some 'knife and fork' work on the edges of the parts.  Would a professional build be like this?

 

 

Hope this is good enough to be able to decide on the source of the wheels.

 

As an aside, I think the conversion to 2 rail is relatively recent looking at the wire used.  However, 2-railing the wheels on one side would not have been a 5 minute job and yet they still look original.

Edited December 11, 2015 by 5050

[5050]

That outside 3rd pickup looks like the one I have*. I don't know the make, but Romford is certainly a possibility.

 

The loco could be Jamieson kit. They were not a lot more than a set of cut out, and in some cases pre-formed, parts.

 

* Part of yet another job lot of bits....

Weren't Jamieson kits in Nickel Silver not Brass?

[jwealleans]

I believe not. This V2 has been built by Tony Wright recently for use on Grantham.

 

 

(Photo Tony Wright)

Edited October 26, 2018 by jwealleans

[Il Grifone]

The wheels have a Romford air about them, possibly turned down to 2.2 mm. Two Romford features, apart from the square axle fittings, are a 'straight across' cast in balance weight, (which looks unlike anything on the real thing) and an excess of spokes - they usually have a couple more than would be expected for the wheel size. My theory is that they were originally intended for H0 scale, but it is only my theory. I have the the impression (maybe erroneous), that the early Romford wheels were finer than later production.

 

I would add the missing handrail, tidy her up and then paint and letter her, so that she looked reasonable, without going mad. A new chassis, using the present mountings is a possibility, keeping the old one to be able restore her to her original state.

[brightspark]

There has been much correspondence about this by those gents I referred to earlier.
 
Their considered opinion is that the wheels are Cimco (The City Model Co.) and may help pin point a date for the model.

​I have been asked to post this as it may help.

 
"The appearance on the market of “Cimco” wheels was announced in the September 1936 issue of the Model Railway Constructor. They had 2¼ mm. wide tyres and flanges ½ mm thick and ¾ mm deep to the recommended fine scale standard of the “British Model Railway Standards Bureau" published in the June 1936 issue of the MRC. Both 14½ mm and 15 mm back to back dimensions were available. The City Model Co. had full page advertisements in the September 1936 and February and November 1937 issues showing the "Cimco" mechanism. This was complete with wheels and available as 4 coupled, 6 coupled and 8 coupled. The illustrations show different units: a 6 coupled mechanism with 20 spoke wheels (September 1936) and 4 coupled mechanisms with 20 spoke wheels (February 1937) and larger dia 22 spoke wheels (November 1937). It was a much more compact mechanism than the one in the prairie tank. The wheel sizes are listed in the January 1937 advertisement. These are: 26 mm. 22 spokes, 24 mm. 20 spokes, 21 mm. 18 spokes and 18 mm. 16 spokes. These sizes and the straight across cast in balance weights are the same as early Romford, which may not be a coincidence. The advertisements for wheels and mechanisms do not mention the back–to-back measurement. F. W. Chubb’s recommendation of 16.5 mm back to back of wheels for 18 mm gauge had appeared in the February 1937 issue of MRC. An advertisement by “Cimco” for track parts and assembled pointwork in the April 1937 issue included the statement: "All of the above can be supplied in 18mm. at the Same Prices". It seems doubtful that there would have been much demand for 18 mm gauge track if appropriate driving axles were not also available."

also a note on EM pre-war

"The May 1939 MRC also includes photos of the Multi-Models S.R. bogie and 4-wheeled General Utility Vans and a write-up which includes "...they can be supplied for 16.5, 18 or 19 mm. gauge...".
Did 18 mm exist in the late 1930's? Two companies certainly thought so"

[5050]

At last I can write a bit more about this intriguing loco. I took it to a 'Retford' running day yesterday and it attracted quite a bit of interest.  Several people had seen the letter refering to it in the EM Society magazine earlier this year.  I also met an old friend who is a long term member of the Manchester Society and he came up with a name of a possible builder, a gent who was an associate of the 'Manchester Gang' (ie Sid Stubbs, Alex Jackson, John Langan, Ross Pochin etc.).  He also reckoned that it could date to the mid '40's.

 

At the end of the sequence on 'Retford' it was given a run on a shortish passenger/parcels train which it handled with aplomb, running very smoothly and controllable - and the motor didn't get even slightly warm even after 4 continuous laps.  I was slightly surprised to find that it passed very smoothly though all the pointwork.  As Roy most likely built them to 18.2mm gauge I was expecting it to 'bump' through them but it was perfect.  It was a bit noisy however, the empty loco 'shell' acting like an amplifier!  Without the body it was a lot quieter.

[5050]

A quick resurection for this.  I was informed a while ago that the builder might have been a member of the Manchester Society by the name of John (?) Getgood who was the 'G' in the MMRC's live steam radio controlled gauge 1 layout 'GMT'.

[Denbridge]

This looks very much like a Hamblings model. I inherited one a few years ago along with several other models from that vintage. The family friend these belonged to commissioned a large number of models during the 1950's and 60's from Hamblings, Eames etc. Even have models reputedly built by George E Mellor, later GEM .

[5050]

For those of an EM persuasion and an interest in 'Historic' models I will have this with me at Expo EM at Kettlethorpe School Wakefield this weekend.

 

 

Edited September 5, 2019 by 5050