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3 hours ago, hayfield said:

That's their salary, then they have expenses which they can claim, plus plenty of perks, many have second and far better paid employments (or union sponsorship) second homes paid for, gold plated pensions, generous severance payments etc. The real benefit of their jobs is probably far more than their salary. Try watching the parliament channel, very rarely more than a couple of dozen in the chamber at any one time, when they are there are concentrating on their phones. If my attendance and behavior was as poor where I work, I would soon be out of a job.    

You set them up so they cant win, but it sounds more like bitter envy to me.

 

Thats a perfect example of not Thinking what your MP does, and criticising every penny spent, that makes that job unattractive.

 

If they are in the chamber 24/7 then there not in their constituency office.

if they are in their constituency office, they aren't in front of people, facilities or businesses.

And of course if they are doing any of that, they are incurring expenses.

 

Of course instead of a second home, they could have a London Hotel every night...

but I assume you’d expect them to sleep in a homeless shelter, and still be productive next day ?

 

By all means attack your MP,’s salary, the UK is one of only a few countries you safely can, but in many London people are earning more and doing less... HS2 might have contractors earning over £1000 a day, no scrutiny, and expenses,  plus get to offset those from their tax bill... I heard HS2 birdwatching “environmentalist” contractors get £600 a day (£156k a year), just incase some rare eggs are found in a tree or some newt found in a stream.. Even domestic builders are charging £350 a day in suburbia London...thats £91k a year... Uber taxi drivers are earning more than MPs...

just look at jobs websites to see.

 

Many world MPs laugh at our bicycling, easyjetting MPs, with every penny declared, when those overseas MPs earn 1/10th the salary of ours, yet somehow own yachts, jets and villas around the world at their taxpayers expense 

 

i’m not saying our MPs are saints, but i’d have them to Braziian ones.. the last three PMs are in Jail will hundreds of millions secretly squirrelled in the bank, yet came to office with nothing. A lot of people have “dissapeared” not just for trying to bring them to justice, but making comments like yours... do you prefer that type of elected official ?..

if so just goto Slovakia and criticise one of theirs.. see how good your chances are..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47907620

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1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

You set them up so they cant win, but it sounds more like bitter envy to me.

 

Thats a perfect example of not Thinking what your MP does, and criticising every penny spent, that makes that job unattractive.

 

If they are in the chamber 24/7 then there not in their constituency office.

if they are in their constituency office, they aren't in front of people, facilities or businesses.

And of course if they are doing any of that, they are incurring expenses.

 

Of course instead of a second home, they could have a London Hotel every night...

but I assume you’d expect them to sleep in a homeless shelter, and still be productive next day ?

 

By all means attack your MP,’s salary, the UK is one of only a few countries you safely can, but in many London people are earning more and doing less... HS2 might have contractors earning over £1000 a day, no scrutiny, and expenses,  plus get to offset those from their tax bill... I heard HS2 birdwatching “environmentalist” contractors get £600 a day (£156k a year), just incase some rare eggs are found in a tree or some newt found in a stream.. Even domestic builders are charging £350 a day in suburbia London...thats £91k a year... Uber taxi drivers are earning more than MPs...

just look at jobs websites to see.

 

Many world MPs laugh at our bicycling, easyjetting MPs, with every penny declared, when those overseas MPs earn 1/10th the salary of ours, yet somehow own yachts, jets and villas around the world at their taxpayers expense 

 

i’m not saying our MPs are saints, but i’d have them to Braziian ones.. the last three PMs are in Jail will hundreds of millions secretly squirrelled in the bank, yet came to office with nothing. A lot of people have “dissapeared” not just for trying to bring them to justice, but making comments like yours... do you prefer that type of elected official ?..

if so just goto Slovakia and criticise one of theirs.. see how good your chances are..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47907620

 

The first part of my reply was just explaining that their income is not just their MP's salary, its their total package derived for doing a job where there is plenty of competition for people wanting to do it). No criticism what so ever or envy

 

Where id I say they had to work 24 hours a day, Parliament does not start till mid day, sits 4 days a week and they seem to have longer recesses than teachers and unlike teachers have plenty of staff both in parliament and at their constituency. We are led to believe they spend their time debating in the chamber, with the key exception of certain prime times the place is virtually empty during debates, to cap it all many who are in attendance seemingly not paying attention to the debate.

 

For a start most of the MP's do not normally live in London, just spend a few nights there (they rockup midday on Monday and lucky to see them still there on Thursday afternoon). I would have thought the tax payer would be better served providing accommodation.

 

Some builders may charge £350 per day but that is not their income or even gross profit,  they have to deduct their business expenses etc . Like wise Uber with zero contract hours may have the odd franchise having turnovers of 90K but many after expenses fail to earn a living wage after costs and expenses. Many self employed people pay others from their daily rate for clerical assistance, MP's doing the same claim the wages back on expenses

 

What has other country's politicians got to do with it ? The statement was quite simple, are our MP's well paid  !!  The basic salary is in many peoples eyes well paid, add in all the extra benefits, gifts, other income obtained owing to the job they are being paid to do (supposedly full time) they have a great income and lifestyle.

 

Owing to their being many potential applicants (equally qualified) to do the job, there is no need for sky high salaries, On the other hand with the UK's 2019 average salary being £36,600 I would guess the average MP's total income would be several times this figure. Hardly under paid

 

Do we get good value from them ? that's subjective

 

 

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2 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

The first part of my reply was just explaining that their income is not just their MP's salary, its their total package derived for doing a job where there is plenty of competition for people wanting to do it). No criticism what so ever or envy

 

Where id I say they had to work 24 hours a day, Parliament does not start till mid day, sits 4 days a week and they seem to have longer recesses than teachers and unlike teachers have plenty of staff both in parliament and at their constituency. We are led to believe they spend their time debating in the chamber, with the key exception of certain prime times the place is virtually empty during debates, to cap it all many who are in attendance seemingly not paying attention to the debate.

 

For a start most of the MP's do not normally live in London, just spend a few nights there (they rockup midday on Monday and lucky to see them still there on Thursday afternoon). I would have thought the tax payer would be better served providing accommodation.

 

Some builders may charge £350 per day but that is not their income or even gross profit,  they have to deduct their business expenses etc . Like wise Uber with zero contract hours may have the odd franchise having turnovers of 90K but many after expenses fail to earn a living wage after costs and expenses. Many self employed people pay others from their daily rate for clerical assistance, MP's doing the same claim the wages back on expenses

 

What has other country's politicians got to do with it ? The statement was quite simple, are our MP's well paid  !!  The basic salary is in many peoples eyes well paid, add in all the extra benefits, gifts, other income obtained owing to the job they are being paid to do (supposedly full time) they have a great income and lifestyle.

 

Owing to their being many potential applicants (equally qualified) to do the job, there is no need for sky high salaries, On the other hand with the UK's 2019 average salary being £36,600 I would guess the average MP's total income would be several times this figure. Hardly under paid

 

Do we get good value from them ? that's subjective

 

 

Let us start with the last line.

I know several MPs including my own constituency chap and they all work very hard and do an excellent job.

They are available at all times. They make the local office available and provide tea and coffee if you want to hold a meeting on a particular topic.

They summon ministers or shadow ministers to attend to answer questions.

I really cannot fault those that I have known.

When it comes to ministers they seem to work even harder for relatively less rewards.

One case comes to mind.

A person I know was asked by David Cameron to be a minister on their pet subject.

As they were not a politician and not an MP they were given a seat in the House of Lords and a salary of £98k

That might sound a lot to some people.

However given that at one time as a hedge fund manager they earnt over 10 times that amount it was doing the government and all of us, a big favour.

As they were also Jewish and gave 20% of any earnings to the religious authorities, before tax, they were hardly doing it for any financial reward.

Just one example of how these people work.

I sent them an email at around 8.30 one morning on a rather technical financial topic.

They replied at about 11.50 with a very complex answer.

On watching the TV news at lunchtime they were either on the BBC live and recorded an hour or so before on ITV or the other way round.

Now I am impressed that they took the trouble to reply to little old me while dealing with matters of national importance.

I could not do that.

I could give several more examples.

They earn every penny they get in my book.

Well, most of them.

That is a hard fact and not subjective.

Just be glad that you have never had the misfortune to need their help.

If you had, then you might view their work in a different light.

Bernard

 

 

.

 

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3 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

...

Parliament does not start till mid day, sits 4 days a week

...

We are led to believe they spend their time debating in the chamber, with the key exception of certain prime times the place is virtually empty during debates, to cap it all many who are in attendance seemingly not paying attention to the debate.

 

...

 

It may start at mid-day - what’s the average finish time?

 

You may have been led to believe “they spend their time debating in the chamber”, but that’s not their primary job. Much more work is now done in committees. The constituency work has already been referred to by others. 

 

Unless you have data showing the average number of hours an MP actually works, your posts do come across to me as just bar-room sneering. 

 

Paul

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7 hours ago, adb968008 said:

By all means attack your MP,’s salary, the UK is one of only a few countries you safely can, but in many London people are earning more and doing less... HS2 might have contractors earning over £1000 a day, no scrutiny, and expenses,  plus get to offset those from their tax bill... I heard HS2 birdwatching “environmentalist” contractors get £600 a day (£156k a year), just incase some rare eggs are found in a tree or some newt found in a stream.. Even domestic builders are charging £350 a day in suburbia London...thats £91k a year... Uber taxi drivers are earning more than MPs...

 

Uber would like you to think that, but no Uber drivers aren't earning that sort of money

 

https://www.vox.com/2018/10/2/17924628/uber-drivers-make-hourly-expenses

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Meanwhile back on topic, talking to someone today who knows someone at the top in the know at Crossrail, it appears there's a problem with flooding. This may have been mentioned before, but I've not been following the whole thread. 

 

But the flooding isn't restricted to one area, but several areas. This will involve drilling the concrete off the tunnel lining rings to get the rings waterproof. Reportedly in one place the water level was way above the running rails.

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11 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

That's their salary, then they have expenses which they can claim, plus plenty of perks, many have second and far better paid employments (or union sponsorship) second homes paid for, gold plated pensions, generous severance payments etc. The real benefit of their jobs is probably far more than their salary. Try watching the parliament channel, very rarely more than a couple of dozen in the chamber at any one time, when they are there are concentrating on their phones. If my attendance and behavior was as poor where I work, I would soon be out of a job.    

 

A wee bit harsh. Sitting in the Commons is a relatively small part of an MP's total job. Many are on Select Committees or other specialist groups, and almost all have to manage (and pay for) a team across two or more locations. Most work six days a week, if not seven, due to Constituency duties, and most have to live in two places. Relatively few have two or more jobs. You forget they also have to submit themselves for continuing in their job at least every five years, and recently more often, which is why the severance conditions are so generous, otherwise only rich people could afford to take the risk). Indeed, in several cases now, and not just in the red corner, that job can end even sooner if people don't like you.

 

True, there are some hopeless and/or lazy ones, and some have proven to be borderline crooks. But IMHO, the salary they receive, whatever the perks (and most companies give perks to their management and director staff), is still pretty low, relatively, for what is expected of them.

 

Back to CrossRail.

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11 hours ago, surfsup said:

 

.....I would also rather be interest to see what's proposed for the Bakerloo - Crossrail Link as those escalators can be very congested during large parts of the day, although unfortunately there seems to be very little on the internet about it. 

 

 

There is a direct underground connection being built between the Paddington Crossrail station and the Bakerloo Line.

It involves tunnels, escalators and lifts....all contained underground.

By all accounts, this has been a major project itself within the overall Crossrail project.

 

There's a photo gallery on this web page......

http://www.ceequal.com/case-studies/paddington-bakerloo-line-link/

 

 

Early design stage news (not sure if it bears any resemblance to the project, as built)....

https://www.scottbrownrigg.com/work/projects/paddington-crossrail-bakerloo-line-link/

 

 

If you're really interested in the civil engineering involved in this project, there's a 1hr 22 min recording of a presentation by the engineers, on the following link.

(shown on Vimeo...can be enlarged)

A bit dull and long winded mind.....

https://www.ice.org.uk/eventarchive/paddington-bakerloo-line-link-project

 

 

 

 

.

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13 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

Let us start with the last line.

I know several MPs including my own constituency chap and they all work very hard and do an excellent job.

They are available at all times. They make the local office available and provide tea and coffee if you want to hold a meeting on a particular topic.

They summon ministers or shadow ministers to attend to answer questions.

I really cannot fault those that I have known.

When it comes to ministers they seem to work even harder for relatively less rewards.

One case comes to mind.

A person I know was asked by David Cameron to be a minister on their pet subject.

As they were not a politician and not an MP they were given a seat in the House of Lords and a salary of £98k

That might sound a lot to some people.

However given that at one time as a hedge fund manager they earnt over 10 times that amount it was doing the government and all of us, a big favour.

As they were also Jewish and gave 20% of any earnings to the religious authorities, before tax, they were hardly doing it for any financial reward.

Just one example of how these people work.

I sent them an email at around 8.30 one morning on a rather technical financial topic.

They replied at about 11.50 with a very complex answer.

On watching the TV news at lunchtime they were either on the BBC live and recorded an hour or so before on ITV or the other way round.

Now I am impressed that they took the trouble to reply to little old me while dealing with matters of national importance.

I could not do that.

I could give several more examples.

They earn every penny they get in my book.

Well, most of them.

That is a hard fact and not subjective.

Just be glad that you have never had the misfortune to need their help.

If you had, then you might view their work in a different light.

Bernard

 

 

.

 

Bernard

 

When living in Hertfordshire I found the exact opposite, made commitments both verbally and followed up by email, later totally failed to honour anything. The commitment was volunteered to me by the prospective MP, I never asked for the help, once I accepted the offer it was a different story

 

I also once went to a local planning committee meeting, all I can say was it was a complete stitch up !!  Whilst they agreed it was against local planning and conservation laws and against a massive local support to dismiss the application, the feeble excuse for granting permission was that the council could not afford to defend an appeal. Clearly the decision was agreed behind closed doors the day before. One councillor did actually resign from the committee, but did not rock the boat over the issue.  

 

Bernard whilst I never said they were overpaid, I was pointing out the total rewards of most MP's are well over their salaries. Also many others work just as hard for far less and could not find the time to do one extra job let alone several 

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12 hours ago, Fenman said:

 

It may start at mid-day - what’s the average finish time?

 

You may have been led to believe “they spend their time debating in the chamber”, but that’s not their primary job. Much more work is now done in committees. The constituency work has already been referred to by others. 

 

Unless you have data showing the average number of hours an MP actually works, your posts do come across to me as just bar-room sneering. 

 

Paul

 

Paul

 

3 MP's (at least) sitting in the sun watching cricket at Lords. If I had been caught on TV taking a casual day off work I would be up for a disciplinary, perhaps even sacked. There was an important session in Parliament with all parties taking part. The message being given to all employees is its fine to take the odd planned sickey!!

 

I do agree many do work their socks off, but its a vocation and there are plenty of other unsung heros doing the same for a fraction of the reward

 

I am a supporter of crossrail, but the shambolic way its been handled, or certainly the public statements about the delays and cost overruns beggars belief. I accept with a project this big and difficulty is bound to suffer unexpected delays and costs, but these should be communicated as the project develops and targets revised well in advance not at the last moment    

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13 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

There is a direct underground connection being built between the Paddington Crossrail station and the Bakerloo Line.

It involves tunnels, escalators and lifts....all contained underground.

By all accounts, this has been a major project itself within the overall Crossrail project.

 

There's a photo gallery on this web page......

http://www.ceequal.com/case-studies/paddington-bakerloo-line-link/

 

 

Early design stage news (not sure if it bears any resemblance to the project, as built)....

https://www.scottbrownrigg.com/work/projects/paddington-crossrail-bakerloo-line-link/

 

 

If you're really interested in the civil engineering involved in this project, there's a 1hr 22 min recording of a presentation by the engineers, on the following link.

(shown on Vimeo...can be enlarged)

A bit dull and long winded mind.....

https://www.ice.org.uk/eventarchive/paddington-bakerloo-line-link-project

 

 

 

 

.

 

 

That is some impressive civil engineering, thank you very much Ron for finding those links. It's interesting to see that the link will run below the Bakerloo Line platforms before turning off. I had wondered if they were going to have gone upwards from the circulating space in between the two Bakerloo platforms. 

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1 hour ago, surfsup said:

.......I had wondered if they were going to have gone upwards from the circulating space in between the two Bakerloo platforms. 

 

They wouldn't have gone "upwards" as the Crossrail station is much deeper underground.

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Sorry if this has been posted before, but I have not seen it. No great revelations, but confirmation that the poorly-designed overall programme and integration management of the multiple contracts and failure to properly track real progress were the two main causes of the delay and cost increases.

 

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Comment/the-challenge-of-completing-crossrail

 

 

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Programme on Channel 5 at 2000 (CORRECTED) tonight (Saturday); 'Crossrail: Where did it all go wrong ?' Should be interesting !

(Also repeated next Friday 9th August at 2000).

 

CORRECTION: Tonight (Saturday's) programme is at 2000, NOT 2100 as originally posted.

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On 03/08/2019 at 10:56, Mike Storey said:

Sorry if this has been posted before, but I have not seen it. No great revelations, but confirmation that the poorly-designed overall programme and integration management of the multiple contracts and failure to properly track real progress were the two main causes of the delay and cost increases.

 

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Comment/the-challenge-of-completing-crossrail

 

 

 

This quote is poignant..

 

Quote

A particular challenge will be ensuring that contractors prioritise completion of Crossrail over other projects and opportunities.

 

That suggests contractors are no longer on a binding contract, and work required is subject to demand in the open market.

 

Certainly a number of people I am related to haven't had Crossrail as the most current project on their cv for 2 years now, with other projects foreign & domestic taking precedence, and no particular desires to want to go back, to what many in the future may perceive as a backwards career move too as well as a cost (therefore salary) constrained one...its not attractive.

 

if HS2 were delayed that may change attitudes, though the overseas market is buoyant too and generally more attractive than UK projects.

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On 02/08/2019 at 19:52, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

 

When I moved from Edinburgh to London about 25 years ago, Clerkenwell was so unfashionable it was the only place in zone 1 I could still afford. Farringdon was like the station time forgot - and, like the area it served, it was completely dead at weekends.

 

Within a couple of years warehouse conversions became hugely fashionable, and clubs had filled the other warehouses: Clerkenwell property prices went through the roof. I retreated to the quiet of Earl’s Court. 

 

It’s staggering to me to think that sleepy Farringdon will shortly be one of the biggest interchanges in central London. What a transformation. 

 

Thanks for sharing the video. 

 

Paul

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I am surprised that our resident expert professionals have not commented on last nights programme.

Here goes from a non rail person with experience in other field of engineering  projects.

I thought that the two union people came across as very moderate and reasonable.

The comment on the authorities in Qatar being easier to deal with than those in Crossrail I found to be a revelation.

The overspends and delays at both Bond Street and Whitechapel are obvious to anyone who is a regular visitor to the areas.

However an exact figure was an eye opener. Ouch. How the hell did it get that far out of control .

I found the collective lack of willingness to take responsibility amongst the various senior managers alarming. But then I come from an era where you owned up to mistakes and rather than getting a bollocking were judged on how effectively you got the mistakes rectified and the project back on course.

Bernard 

 

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11 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

I am surprised that our resident expert professionals have not commented on last nights programme.

Here goes from a non rail person with experience in other field of engineering  projects.

I thought that the two union people came across as very moderate and reasonable.

The comment on the authorities in Qatar being easier to deal with than those in Crossrail I found to be a revelation.

The overspends and delays at both Bond Street and Whitechapel are obvious to anyone who is a regular visitor to the areas.

However an exact figure was an eye opener. Ouch. How the hell did it get that far out of control .

I found the collective lack of willingness to take responsibility amongst the various senior managers alarming. But then I come from an era where you owned up to mistakes and rather than getting a bollocking were judged on how effectively you got the mistakes rectified and the project back on course.

Bernard 

 

Which programme, please?

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Obviously the full sorry story is yet to emerge but Crossrail is shaping up to become a text book all of its own on how not to manage a multiple contract project.  It appears that all the ingredients for spectacular failure are there - silo mentality in each work contract compounded by poor contract oversight and poor financial control, failure to understand the progress of individual contracts in the context of the critical path, a culture that suppressed or actively discouraged bad news followed by a smoke screen blame culture (eg the delay is all Bombardier's fault when in reality two of the three most critical stations on the line were literally years late) etc etc.  How is it even possible to reveal only a few months away from the opening date that at least two stations need two more years work?  That is management incompetence on a biblical scale.

 

People rightly criticise the DfT for its stance on electrification but this debacle and NR's shambolic performance on the various electrification schemes don't half make it easy for them to justify such a stance on the basis of cost overruns and late delivery.

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The other element that wasn't even remotely touched upon in the programme was the complication of matters by extending CrossRail at a very late stage from Maidenhead to Reading with the knock-on effects on platform availability and intra-station track crossing paths at Reading. Especially as it would affect XC trains - with knock-on effects all the way to New Street and possibly beyond. This point is the subject of recent posts in the class 800 thread by Stationmaster et al.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Arun Sharma said:

The other element that wasn't even remotely touched upon in the programme was the complication of matters by extending CrossRail at a very late stage from Maidenhead to Reading with the knock-on effects on platform availability and intra-station track crossing paths at Reading. Especially as it would affect XC trains - with knock-on effects all the way to New Street and possibly beyond. This point is the subject of recent posts in the class 800 thread by Stationmaster et al.

 

 

I didn't bother to watch the programme but presumably from what you have said here there was no comment either about the purchase of any additional trains to achieve the planned Crossrail frequency from Reading.  Extending from Maidenhead to Reading puts c.30 minutes (sometimes a minute or two less) into the cycle time of every diagram so extended.  If we follow. Crossrail's stated intention of running 2 trains per hour from Reading that is an extra hour added in every clock face hour and over the operating day that is going to build up into a considerable amount of time - e.g. 16 hours over a 16 hour operating day.  So it must eventually come out as at least one extra set and possibly more if peak hour trains from Reading are more frequent than 2 per hour.

 

So either additional resources (sets and traincrew) have to be procured in order to extend the service to Reading OR there was wasteful slack in the original procurement which enables Reading to be reached without additional resource costs.  as with a lot of Crossrail's financial figures there would seem to be a lot of smoke and mirrors involved.  Simple answer is - which needs no tv programme to tell us - exactly as Mike Storey posted above -

 

On 03/08/2019 at 10:56, Mike Storey said:

Sorry if this has been posted before, but I have not seen it. No great revelations, but confirmation that the poorly-designed overall programme and integration management of the multiple contracts and failure to properly track real progress were the two main causes of the delay and cost increases.

 

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Comment/the-challenge-of-completing-crossrail

 

 

 

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