Elizabeth Line / Crossrail Updates.

[Mike Storey]

9 hours ago, woodenhead said:

The point is, the HS2 review is a political stunt to ensure the voters still believe the party is there for it's masses around the Chilterns, I doubt very much it will be cancelled, to many lucrative contracts, too many jobs and too much polictical risk in actually cancelling it.  Crossrail 2 will be interesting, how will the London voters when it comes to the next Mayoral vote, will it be pro or against the second Crossrail now that the first Crossrail is so far behind schedule and still burning money.

 

All true of course, but I doubt Crossrail 2 will feature much in the Mayoral election. More likely, Heathrow 4, which is definitely going to feature highly in the GE.

[KeithMacdonald]

9 hours ago, woodenhead said:

A Tory campaign like no other at the moment, a leader who has to do populous things for his voting needs to ensure they return him to government.

 

True, but when was it ever different, for parties of any colour?

 

That reminds me, my wife keeps reminding me (when I start my own rants) :

Just remember dear, a "populist" thing just means a democratic choice you don't agree with. Especially if the choice was made by people with fewer qualifications than you. How very dare they express their own opinion?

 

Some might say : It was much easier when we had a Norman feudal society to keep us revolting peasants in line, n'est-ce pas?

 

9 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Overall I am very disillusioned with all the political parties at the moment

 

Perhaps you are suffering from Electile Dysfunction? I'm told it's quite common in men of our age.

 

[The Stationmaster]

An amusing(?) aside.  I am in the process of going through a considerable quantuty of a good few year's worth of accumulated paperwork and ephemera and I came across my notes from a Crossrail working party meeting in April 1993.  We were told at that meeting that the entire scheme was under review and while the Reading case was looking fairly strong there was a possibility that the Aylesbury section was likely to be deferred for implementation at a later date.

 

Some of the dates we were given are more interesting.  electric train running from Paddington, taking advantage of the wiring to Heathrow was envisaged for as early as easter 1997 (destination not specified but the implication was at least as far as Hayes with Crossrail services from Reading anticipated to begin in the Autumn of 1998 (September) timetable change date.  Work at Reading was expected to start in September 1995 while Reading West Jcn yard was required to be cleared by 1 January 1997 to enable the start of site works for the depot and stabling sidings.

 

So on that timescale it would appear that Crossrail passenger services from Reading will be commencing 21 years and 3 months later than originally anticipated (and of course the originally proposed Class 341 BR designed units have given way to the LUL designed Class 345).  The scheme of today is of course very different from the early 1990s one with the Aylesbury line completely omitted and Marylebone station consequently not closed, the frequency of services to Heathrow will be rather different from the 'two trains per hour to supplement Heathrow Express' talked about back then,  a station at Whitechapel has been added to the central section,  the Abbey Wood branch has been added at the eastern end., and passenger capacity has been increased from the 1,000 of an 8 car 341 to 1,500 on a 9 car 345.

[ess1uk]

ETCS due to go live on the Paddington to 12 mile post imminently 

[SouthernMafia]

Apparently 345 operation is due to be extended from Hayes to Maidenhead on Monday 25th November. A soft launch before the big timetable change?

[St. Simon]

17 hours ago, ess1uk said:

ETCS due to go live on the Paddington to 12 mile post imminently 

 

 

No, it isn't, you've got another year before ETCS from Acton to Stockley is commissioned and then several more years before it goes into Paddington.

 

The only ETCS on Western is from Stockley to Heathrow, which is live and working and has been for sometime, it's just the trains aren't.

 

Simon

Edited November 17, 2019 by St. Simon

[ess1uk]

44 minutes ago, St. Simon said:

 

 

No, it isn't, you've got another year before ETCS from Acton to Stockley is commissioned and then several more years before it goes into Paddington.

 

The only ETCS on Western is from Stockley to Heathrow, which is live and working and has been for sometime, it's just the trains aren't.

 

Simon

I did wonder when the Project Manager told me that last night.

are the trains fitted but just not using it?

[St. Simon]

3 minutes ago, ess1uk said:

I did wonder when the Project Manager told me that last night.

are the trains fitted but just not using it?

They are fitted, they’ve just had some software problems (although not sure what they were) which prevented them going down to Heathrow.

 

I wander if it’s a case that those problems are fixed and the 345s can now use the ETCS down to Heathrow and that’s been mis-understood by someone?

 

(The above is pure speculation and I don’t have any evidence to back it up!)

 

Simon

[ess1uk]

34 minutes ago, St. Simon said:

They are fitted, they’ve just had some software problems (although not sure what they were) which prevented them going down to Heathrow.

 

I wander if it’s a case that those problems are fixed and the 345s can now use the ETCS down to Heathrow and that’s been mis-understood by someone?

 

(The above is pure speculation and I don’t have any evidence to back it up!)

 

Simon

I’m guessing too but they will be using It to Heathrow before Xmas 

[The Stationmaster]

On 17/11/2019 at 15:33, SouthernMafia said:

Apparently 345 operation is due to be extended from Hayes to Maidenhead on Monday 25th November. A soft launch before the big timetable change?

If Real Time Trains is correct there are two part diagrams (or one long one with a gap in the middle) which are issued as STP commencing on 25 November which cover various trains between Reading and Paddington (and reverse) with one  which turns round at Maidenhead on arrival from Paddington.  They have also been uploaded to National Rail Enquiries and appear to be basically slotting into existing GWR diagrams so they aren't even 'shadow running' but are taking over booked (some?) services.

[jim.snowdon]

On 18/11/2019 at 17:25, The Stationmaster said:

If Real Time Trains is correct there are two part diagrams (or one long one with a gap in the middle) which are issued as STP commencing on 25 November which cover various trains between Reading and Paddington (and reverse) with one  which turns round at Maidenhead on arrival from Paddington.  They have also been uploaded to National Rail Enquiries and appear to be basically slotting into existing GWR diagrams so they aren't even 'shadow running' but are taking over booked (some?) services.

So it would seem, but although they are listed on the various journey planners as being operated by TfL Rail, they aren't yet TfL Rail services for ticketing purposes, at least not until the December timetable change. Not too handy if you want to use a 60+ Oyster card before 09:30, although it would be valid on the same train from Hayes inwards to Paddington.

 

Jim

[Gwiwer]

I thought 60+ and all other Oyster products were only available between Paddington and West Drayton in any case.  So the only difference would be if a train called at West Drayton shortly before 09.30 then at Hayes at or after that time.   Whilst it might frustrate a few people the card readers will not touch on a 60+ until they show 09.30 anyway so a Hayes departure at 09.30 or 09.31 is unlikely to be caught with a validated card.  

 

It is of course possible that a commercial arrangement has been reached between GWR and TfL to run these trains from a slightly earlier date effectively on hire to GWR until the timetable change.  

[billbedford]

 

[jim.snowdon]

29 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

I thought 60+ and all other Oyster products were only available between Paddington and West Drayton in any case.  So the only difference would be if a train called at West Drayton shortly before 09.30 then at Hayes at or after that time.   Whilst it might frustrate a few people the card readers will not touch on a 60+ until they show 09.30 anyway so a Hayes departure at 09.30 or 09.31 is unlikely to be caught with a validated card.  

 

It is of course possible that a commercial arrangement has been reached between GWR and TfL to run these trains from a slightly earlier date effectively on hire to GWR until the timetable change.  

The latter is indeed possible. The platform indicators show them as being GWR trains operated by TfL, so technically not TfL trains at all for ticketing purposes.

 

Jim 

[The Stationmaster]

And we will be going from the sublime to the ridiculous.  Yesterday I travelled on an IET from Twyford to Reading (officially it is a 387 but IETs have been working it for some time whenever I have seen the back working).  Tomorrow I shall be using that back working to get to London and it will be interesting to see if it is again an IET - it is in any case a limited stop train calling only at Maidenhead and Slough after Twyford.  From 16 December that train goes and the nearest replacement is a 345.   I bet that one will go down like a lead balloon with regular travellers as it is quite a busy train.

[SouthernMafia]

It's interesting watching passenger flows at stations at the moment. With platform extensions now in use at Slough and West Drayton, 8-car 387s now stop right at the London end of nearly all stations from Reading, with the main entrance/exit being towards the rear of the train. 

Made worse at West Drayton where the SDO hasn't been updated so it's still front 7. Luckily Crossrail platform staff do a good job of moving everybody up, but because most people get off at Ealing Broadway for the tube, the connectional exit being roughly in line with coach 6 and 7, you can only tell people to move so far before they look at you with a hate filled expression, and the result is often a completely full and standing rear 4, with a decently loaded but mostly seated passengers in the front 4.

 

When Crossrail start running into Paddington underground and onwards, I wonder if this will change. It will help with dwell times for sure, certainly the mass exodus at Ealing for every train in the Peak should be reduced.

[St. Simon]

1 hour ago, SouthernMafia said:

It's interesting watching passenger flows at stations at the moment. With platform extensions now in use at Slough and West Drayton, 8-car 387s now stop right at the London end of nearly all stations from Reading, with the main entrance/exit being towards the rear of the train. 

Made worse at West Drayton where the SDO hasn't been updated so it's still front 7. Luckily Crossrail platform staff do a good job of moving everybody up, but because most people get off at Ealing Broadway for the tube, the connectional exit being roughly in line with coach 6 and 7, you can only tell people to move so far before they look at you with a hate filled expression, and the result is often a completely full and standing rear 4, with a decently loaded but mostly seated passengers in the front 4.

 

When Crossrail start running into Paddington underground and onwards, I wonder if this will change. It will help with dwell times for sure, certainly the mass exodus at Ealing for every train in the Peak should be reduced.

 

The SDO system is being updated on the weekend of the Timetable change,

 

Simon

[The Stationmaster]

On 02/12/2019 at 10:57, SouthernMafia said:

It's interesting watching passenger flows at stations at the moment. With platform extensions now in use at Slough and West Drayton, 8-car 387s now stop right at the London end of nearly all stations from Reading, with the main entrance/exit being towards the rear of the train. 

Made worse at West Drayton where the SDO hasn't been updated so it's still front 7. Luckily Crossrail platform staff do a good job of moving everybody up, but because most people get off at Ealing Broadway for the tube, the connectional exit being roughly in line with coach 6 and 7, you can only tell people to move so far before they look at you with a hate filled expression, and the result is often a completely full and standing rear 4, with a decently loaded but mostly seated passengers in the front 4.

 

When Crossrail start running into Paddington underground and onwards, I wonder if this will change. It will help with dwell times for sure, certainly the mass exodus at Ealing for every train in the Peak should be reduced.

I wonder just how many folk change to the UndergrounD at Ealing Broadway who will transferr to changing further in once Crossrail's Central section is open?  Judging by a recent trip on the Central Line from ealing Broadway to Bank I don't think it will be all that many although taht was towards the end of the peak.  No doubt some Ealing Broadway originators will use Crossrail from there but I've always had the impression on recent journeys, including some in the peak, that most of those who change trains there to/from the GWML aren't going anywhere near central London.  

 

What might make a difference is whether changing from Crossrail to the District Line at Paddington for west London offers a quicker, or more convenient, journey than changing at Ealing Broadway - I suspect it might not.

[The Stationmaster]

On 27/11/2019 at 17:15, jim.snowdon said:

The latter is indeed possible. The platform indicators show them as being GWR trains operated by TfL, so technically not TfL trains at all for ticketing purposes.

 

Jim 

Interestingly the one I travelled on yesterday from Twyford to Reading was shown on the platform indicator at Twyford as a TfL service - even tho' it was running in a GWR diagram.  I don't know what you have found Jim but it struck me as very hard riding in comparison with all modern trains (and some older ones) with a lot of the bogie movement transmitted into the body when running at speed.   Although accompanied by a Tutor/Instructor the Driver seemed a bit clueless approaching Reading with the number of brake applications immediately followed by releasing the brake very indicative of somebody 'feeling their way' over a road they weren't really familiar with.

 

They also have a very strange habit of running right up to the platform end when stopping at a station like Twyford which sort of left a lot oof passengers, including me, standing in the wrong place to actually get aboard (let alone being opposite the escalator at Reading

[jim.snowdon]

47 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Interestingly the one I travelled on yesterday from Twyford to Reading was shown on the platform indicator at Twyford as a TfL service - even tho' it was running in a GWR diagram.  I don't know what you have found Jim but it struck me as very hard riding in comparison with all modern trains (and some older ones) with a lot of the bogie movement transmitted into the body when running at speed.   Although accompanied by a Tutor/Instructor the Driver seemed a bit clueless approaching Reading with the number of brake applications immediately followed by releasing the brake very indicative of somebody 'feeling their way' over a road they weren't really familiar with.

 

They also have a very strange habit of running right up to the platform end when stopping at a station like Twyford which sort of left a lot oof passengers, including me, standing in the wrong place to actually get aboard (let alone being opposite the escalator at Reading

For the 345s, there is only a 9-car stop marker, so even though the units are currently only 7 cars (I wonder how soon after December 15th we start to get the full length 9-car units?) they are not stopping short of that. Even the 8-car GWR 387 units are now drawing up to the 9-car markers. It's something of a change that the guidance provided by the original SR markers has turned into the all but mandatory instruction of the present day markers.

 

As far as the ride is concerned, I have found the 345s to be not much different to the 387s, however the underlying problem is the change, with the introduction of the 465s on the Southern, in gauging practice. The necessity of having to comply with a dynamic kinematic envelope tends to push rolling stock designers towards secondary suspensions that are stiffer than used to be the case.

 

Jim

[Gwiwer]

My impression, formed from unplanned trips at different times and on different days of the week (though not weekday morning peaks when I am at work) suggests most passengers changing between the GWR / TfL Rail services and the UndergrounD (also TfL but thankfully not branded TfL rail) at Ealing Broadway are making relatively local journeys via the Central Line between the likes of Hayes / Southall and Shepherd's Bush or the Acton area.  Yes a few trains stop at Acton Main Line but that isn't ideally situated for many parts of Acton no the vast Park Royal business park / hospital area which is a major trip generator.  

 

In my experience few passengers interchange to or from the District Line; those using that route more typically transfer to or from local buses if Ealing Broadway is not their destination.  

 

We all await the change in travel patterns which TfL and no doubt computerised modelling has suggested will occur once the Crossrail core is open.  It will ease some of the burden at Paddington but in both the cause and effect sense because many of the stopping trains will no longer use the main station anyway.  Ditto Liverpool Street at the other side of Town.  To what extent any other trips change will be interesting to observe.   Some users will find it more convenient to ride through to the new central area stations (from both east and west) while others might even find it less convenient if their trip already requires, for example, a change to the Bakerloo at Paddington.  

 

Short trains stopping at the platform ends seems to be a recent and particularly frustrating development not confined to Crossrail / TfL nor the 345s.  It is at least in part related to the introduction of DOO since it is unreasonably costly to have a set of driver's mirrors / CCTV at every potential stopping point when many different train lengths are possible.  SWR extended many platforms to accommodate 10-car suburban trains but at the same time moved the stopping markers for 8-car trains to the platform ends.  The result is that there are now locations similar to West Drayton where the only shelter is at one extreme end but many trains stop with the rear of the last carriage some 120-130 feet farther down the platform.  This in turn affects dwell time and network punctuality as passengers chase their train and all pile into the back door.  The dynamics of human interaction with the railway seem to dictate that one cannot successfully cattle-prod passengers to board in similar numbers at each doorway nor will they take any notice of the information systems which now often indicate the length of the train.  Though not always reliably.   

 

Edited December 3, 2019 by Gwiwer

[St. Simon]

Hi,

 

I believe that GWR are having a bit of a ‘tidy up’ in regards to stopping positions to make it all a little simpler for the driver (after all, stopping positions have to be roughly remembered by drivers to judge braking distances etc.).

 

There have been complaints from NWR and various TOCs surrounding the number of car stop markers that are being used (due to confusion risk and potential stop short / excessive door release incidents, of which they are a few a week across the network), so there seems to be a concerted effort to provide common stopping positions. It seems that they common 8- and 12-car formations and then 4-car formations are separate (but not in all cases).

 

The DOO Monitors and cameras on the Thames Valley are barely used now as they are only used by Class 16x’s. The Class 387s use their body side cameras for DOO, whilst the Class 345s use an image transmitted from platform cameras into the Cab so monitors aren’t necessary wherever they stop.

 

Also, assuming no infrastructure constraints, having more common stopping positions at one end of a platform can help future proofing, as platform extensions can be added on top of each other at the other end of the platform without moving the car stop markers, making it all a little simpler to implement.

 

Another consideration is how SDO systems are configured. Only one of the SDO systems in use in the UK (that used by Class 800’s, and possibly the Class 700s / 707s / 717s, based on ETCS packet 44 data) is capable of using train stopping positions that require SDO that are aligned centrally, i.e. both ends of a train hang over the platform. All the others require all train stopping positions requiring SDO to be aligned at one end or the other.

 

Simon

[lmsforever]

On 16/11/2019 at 00:55, woodenhead said:

The nice green country bits perhaps, but the populous areas of industry vote towards a party that understands them and was the reason for the birth of said party.

 

A Tory campaign like no other at the moment, a leader who has to do populous things for his voting needs to ensure they return him to government - I was surprised the report came out before the election really, although having Lord Berkeley throwing in his strong objections will keep the Chilterns massive happy and dreaming of a cancellation.

 

Overall I am very disillusioned with all the political parties at the moment, but it is pretty clear the Tories don't expect to be winning lots of new seats - there are some to collect and they have resolved their Remainer issues with the ejections and election so they just need to ensure no upsets in their general base and then win back the seats they lost last time round as they can no longer hope for support from other parties to complete Brexit.   Throwing money at the NHS is to prove a point about Brexit and probably also force the Labour party into making promises that it will be easy for the Tories to show is impossible to spend in the timescale of a parliament.  The point is, the HS2 review is a political stunt to ensure the voters still believe the party is there for it's masses around the Chilterns, I doubt very much it will be cancelled, to many lucrative contracts, too many jobs and too much polictical risk in actually cancelling it.  Crossrail 2 will be interesting, how will the London voters when it comes to the next Mayoral vote, will it be pro or against the second Crossrail now that the first Crossrail is so far behind schedule and still burning money.

Here in the Chilterns the upturn in work on HS2 makes me think it  is all window dressing the review  and it will go ahead but probably only to Brum.All parties are throwing money at the NHS to no avail here it is under intense growing pressure plus  having lived through everyone of a certain party of a red colour they are useless at running things and leave mountains of problems that are still affecting us.Sorry mods am fed up with some of the praise on here for them it had to be said.

[Mark Saunders]

1 minute ago, lmsforever said:

Here in the Chilterns the upturn in work on HS2 makes me think it  is all window dressing the review  and it will go ahead but probably only to Brum.All parties are throwing money at the NHS to no avail here it is under intense growing pressure plus  having lived through everyone of a certain party of a red colour they are useless at running things and leave mountains of problems that are still affecting us.Sorry mods am fed up with some of the praise on here for them it had to be said.

 

No one has thrown any money anywhere as no one has formed the next Government, all are equally useless I they all know the price of everything and value of nothing; plus pander to vested interests!

[lmsforever]

Over the last sixty years the amount of money spent on the NHS has consistently risen upwards and it will continue after Dec 12th  but has it been spent  wisely.