Elizabeth Line / Crossrail Updates.

[Suzie]

We are now seeing a situation where the capacity of the railway is actually sufficient for the number of passengers - the way to get passengers back is to reconfigure the interiors to be a bit more spacious, comfortable, and healthy!

 

Now that a lot of people have found that they don't need to travel it is time to make them want to travel.

[Siberian Snooper]

To want to travel, there needs to be something on the end of it and at the moment the hospitality sector is barely open. Apart from a trip to the seaside most other attractions are either still closed or running at below capacity due to the social distancing requirements and there are still no theatres open, etc. Until these issues are resolved, there's nothing to travel for.

 

 

 

[Mike Storey]

13 hours ago, Siberian Snooper said:

To want to travel, there needs to be something on the end of it and at the moment the hospitality sector is barely open. Apart from a trip to the seaside most other attractions are either still closed or running at below capacity due to the social distancing requirements and there are still no theatres open, etc. Until these issues are resolved, there's nothing to travel for.

 

 

 

 

True, but will that still be true in 20 years or more time? Should we be planning for right now, or what is likely in the timescale envisaged?

[Ron Ron Ron]

With due respect chaps, this thread is about the Elizabeth Line ( i.e. Crossrail 1) and not about future demand for rail travel, or CR2.

 

The Elizabeth Line already exists and is nearing its completion.
When it finally opens, it will be running an intensive service, regardless of how much short term impact the Covid-19 pandemic has had on the numbers of rail passengers travelling across London.

 

 

.

[Christopher125]

A *big* milestone has been achieved in recent days - the 9-car 345s are back in operation and working services to Heathrow using ETCS. A long time coming!

 

 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

On 31/07/2020 at 13:05, Ron Ron Ron said:

New western entrance to Paddington station, from Eastbourne Terrace......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

Not very useful at present of course but it is good to see that entrance has at last been reopened, and with some nice new doors to stop the wind whistling in which could be a right nuisance at times in the past.  I wonder how long it will be before the Eastbourne Terrace ramp between that entrance and Praed Street becomes yet another refuge for smokers?

 

As for working from home my son has been doing that since March and has duly commandeered the dining room.  He has been told that folk will be unlikely to return to his normal office until at least the 4th quarter and possibly not even until next year.  His employer stopped virtually all international travel for company staff back in February which was probably just as well as that meant my son had to cancel a meeting in Madrid but current plans are that he might be going to the Geneva office, where he occasionally works, for a few days in December - time will tell.

 

On a more general front regarding travel it is clearly not going to rebuild to pre-pandemic levels for some time to come although leisure travel has apparently increased, massively so on some days and routes, in recent weeks.  But commuting will no doubt change because long talked about 'remote working' has, after years of us being told 'it's coming' actually arrived.  But we don't really know yet what that will mean while Covid still lurks, in particular, as threat to just about any sort of indoor gathering of people from multiple households.

 

As for delays to. Crossrail, and notwithstanding nonsensical moanings in our local 'paper about 'the delay', what we actually seem to be looking at is the start of certification and full testing being put back about 3 months.  And that isn't very much compared with the delays that have occurred so far.

[Ron Ron Ron]

11 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

.......As for delays to. Crossrail, and notwithstanding nonsensical moanings in our local 'paper about 'the delay', what we actually seem to be looking at is the start of certification and full testing being put back about 3 months.  And that isn't very much compared with the delays that have occurred so far.

 

The new delay isn't that bad in the big scheme of things.

Crossrail have said that the remaining physical work is being accelerated in an attempt to catch up ASAP.

As for testing, the next big and crucial step, is the move from full system testing, to trial running and then onto trial operations.

It appears the "delay" has allowed the development team to go straight to the next software build.

Silver linings and all that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Edited August 6, 2020 by Ron Ron Ron

[caradoc]

Update on opening the central section; Now 2022:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-53847738

[DY444]

On 30/07/2020 at 10:05, bartram108 said:

<correction>

The 60+ London Oyster photocard scheme entitles Londoners to free travel on all TfL services and some national rail services 24 hours a day, seven days a week, from their sixtieth birthday. It also allows holders free travel outside of morning peak hours on other national rail services in the capital.

</correction>

 

That is out of date.  TfL have changed the T&Cs and the cards are no longer valid for travel between 0430 and 0900 Monday to Friday.

 

For 60+ photocard the second bullet point under "Benefits" refers:

https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/free-and-discounted-travel/60-plus-oyster-photocard

For Older Person's Freedom pass the fourth paragraph under "Benefits" refers:

https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/free-and-discounted-travel/freedom-pass

Edited August 23, 2020 by DY444

[John Harris]

28 minutes ago, DY444 said:

 

That is out of date.  TfL have changed the T&Cs and the cards are no longer valid for travel between 0430 and 0900 Monday to Friday.

 

For 60+ photocard the second bullet point under "Benefits" refers:

https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/free-and-discounted-travel/60-plus-oyster-photocard

For Older Person's Freedom pass the fourth paragraph under "Benefits" refers:

https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/free-and-discounted-travel/freedom-pass

 

As far as I understand it, these changes are Covid-19 related and 'for the duration'.

 

Shashi Verma, Chief Technology Officer at Transport for London said: “We are working hard to ensure that those who have no option other than to travel using public transport can do so safely.  Given the national requirement to maintain two-metre social distancing, the capacity of buses and trains is hugely reduced.  These temporary changes to the Older Person’s Freedom Pass and 60+ Oyster card pass during morning peak travel will help reduce the risk of crowding when it would be more difficult to maintain social distancing.”  Mayor Watch

 

Of course, that could still be for a number of months, though once schools return in a couple of weeks, the numbers commuting might mean 'social distancing' is an aspiration rather than a reality.

 

At least the Elizabeth Line trains are longer, albeit with fewer seats.

 

jch

[DY444]

1 hour ago, John Harris said:

 

As far as I understand it, these changes are Covid-19 related and 'for the duration'.

 

Shashi Verma, Chief Technology Officer at Transport for London said: “We are working hard to ensure that those who have no option other than to travel using public transport can do so safely.  Given the national requirement to maintain two-metre social distancing, the capacity of buses and trains is hugely reduced.  These temporary changes to the Older Person’s Freedom Pass and 60+ Oyster card pass during morning peak travel will help reduce the risk of crowding when it would be more difficult to maintain social distancing.”  Mayor Watch

 

Of course, that could still be for a number of months, though once schools return in a couple of weeks, the numbers commuting might mean 'social distancing' is an aspiration rather than a reality.

 

At least the Elizabeth Line trains are longer, albeit with fewer seats.

 

jch

 

It was indeed billed as temporary however I have my doubts as to whether the previous validity will ever be re-instated. 

[John Harris]

21 hours ago, DY444 said:

 

It was indeed billed as temporary however I have my doubts as to whether the previous validity will ever be re-instated. 

 

I suppose "the duration" is a proverbial length of string anyway, though with the Mayoral election rescheduled for next year the issue might become part of the campaigns, it is recognised that over 60s are more likely to vote.

 

jch

 

*Full disclosure, I have one of these cards!

[DY444]

1 hour ago, John Harris said:

 

I suppose "the duration" is a proverbial length of string anyway, though with the Mayoral election rescheduled for next year the issue might become part of the campaigns, it is recognised that over 60s are more likely to vote.

 

jch

 

*Full disclosure, I have one of these cards!

 

*As do I. 

 

Frankly I don't see it being an issue which will influence the election.  TfL are broke and that is unlikely to be rectified in a hurry and plenty in the Mayor's party despise the over 60s for having the temerity to exercise their right to vote how they see fit so there will be some resistance there. 

 

As we stand now the only way I see it being fully re-instated is if it is decided at some point that more people travelling will encourage others that it is safe to do so (which seems unlikely) or if the polls do show Khan behind (which seems highly unlikely despite the appalling job he has done).  There is a better chance imo it might come back just on the buses but I wouldn't put money on it.

[iands]

Heard two interesting snippets this afternoon (from a usually very reliable source).

1. Crossrail are abandoning CBTC on the central section in favour of ETCS - not sure what (if any) impact this will have on timescales for 'start-of-service', but will obviously require changes to system integration testing. The hardware for GSMR (to support ETCS) is already on the central section, so this part shouldn't be a problem. I presume, at the very least, there will be hardware (and indeed software) changes onboard the 345s, as well as at Romford ROC.

2. Crossrail are undertaking a fairly significant re-railing exercise (i.e. changing rails, not putting derailed rolling stock back on the track). The extent of this re-railing (e.g. a short section, the whole central section, just the western end/interface, just the eastern end/interface), or the reason behind it (damaged/worn already?) is a bit unclear.

 

As I say, interesting developments. Will await to see what happens.

[St. Simon]

9 minutes ago, iands said:

Heard two interesting snippets this afternoon (from a usually very reliable source).

1. Crossrail are abandoning CBTC on the central section in favour of ETCS - not sure what (if any) impact this will have on timescales for 'start-of-service', but will obviously require changes to system integration testing. The hardware for GSMR (to support ETCS) is already on the central section, so this part shouldn't be a problem. I presume, at the very least, there will be hardware (and indeed software) changes onboard the 345s, as well as at Romford ROC.

2. Crossrail are undertaking a fairly significant re-railing exercise (i.e. changing rails, not putting derailed rolling stock back on the track). The extent of this re-railing (e.g. a short section, the whole central section, just the western end/interface, just the eastern end/interface), or the reason behind it (damaged/worn already?) is a bit unclear.

 

As I say, interesting developments. Will await to see what happens.

Hi,

 

That sounds dubious to me, abandoning a signalling system and changing to a new one particularly between CBTC and ETCS is a massive change (a new RBC, new control system at Romford, new interlockings probably, drivers need re-training, signallers need re-training etc. etc) I can’t believe they’d do that so close to commissioning (relatively).

 

On the re-railing, I believe it could be needed, but the fact that the latest updates from Crossrail is that the ‘railway’ is complete with just station fitting to finish, points to neither of these developments being totally accurate, I think the wrong of the stick has been handed to your source.

 

Simon

[iands]

21 minutes ago, St. Simon said:

Hi,

 

That sounds dubious to me, abandoning a signalling system and changing to a new one particularly between CBTC and ETCS is a massive change (a new RBC, new control system at Romford, new interlockings probably, drivers need re-training, signallers need re-training etc. etc) I can’t believe they’d do that so close to commissioning (relatively).

 

On the re-railing, I believe it could be needed, but the fact that the latest updates from Crossrail is that the ‘railway’ is complete with just station fitting to finish, points to neither of these developments being totally accurate, I think the wrong of the stick has been handed to your source.

 

Simon

Hi Simon,

 

Thanks for your observations. I have some experience of Crossrail as I was the Telecoms 'Technical Advisor' for RfL back in 2013/2014-ish looking at all things telecoms for the whole of the Crossrail project, and had a certain amount for involvement particularly with GSMR, Transmission Systems and all relevant interfaces etc. with the Signalling systems. At the time I could see the argument for going with CBTC (on the central section), as GSMR, whilst "proven" as a voice comms system, was not capable on it's own of supporting the full range of ETCS data requirements at that time, without additional hardware. The add-on GPRS that was identified and required to support ETCS was not yet tested/proven. However, Siemens (the main "S&T" contractor on Crossrail) had (allegedly) a working/proven CBTC system, so this became the 'preferred' option. All this not helped by the fact that DfT had specified (and signed-off contracts with suppliers) for trains fitted only with ETCS capability. So it was down to CRL to interface and prove all interfaces worked correctly and as designed (to meet all TSI etc. requirements). Given the delays so far to Crossrail, it would seem that some of the testing/proving activities have been moved into the "too difficult" pile and a re-think has been necessary.

 

As I say, it will be interesting to see how (or if) this develops and what impact (cost/timescales) this may have.

[ess1uk]

What BTS is being used in the central section?

On 01/10/2020 at 19:48, iands said:

Hi Simon,

 

Thanks for your observations. I have some experience of Crossrail as I was the Telecoms 'Technical Advisor' for RfL back in 2013/2014-ish looking at all things telecoms for the whole of the Crossrail project, and had a certain amount for involvement particularly with GSMR, Transmission Systems and all relevant interfaces etc. with the Signalling systems. At the time I could see the argument for going with CBTC (on the central section), as GSMR, whilst "proven" as a voice comms system, was not capable on it's own of supporting the full range of ETCS data requirements at that time, without additional hardware. The add-on GPRS that was identified and required to support ETCS was not yet tested/proven. However, Siemens (the main "S&T" contractor on Crossrail) had (allegedly) a working/proven CBTC system, so this became the 'preferred' option. All this not helped by the fact that DfT had specified (and signed-off contracts with suppliers) for trains fitted only with ETCS capability. So it was down to CRL to interface and prove all interfaces worked correctly and as designed (to meet all TSI etc. requirements). Given the delays so far to Crossrail, it would seem that some of the testing/proving activities have been moved into the "too difficult" pile and a re-think has been necessary.

 

As I say, it will be interesting to see how (or if) this develops and what impact (cost/timescales) this may have.

 

[iands]

10 hours ago, ess1uk said:

What BTS is being used in the central section?

 

BTS or BSC? New BTS(s) were proposed, but I'll have to check my notes to confirm, also not sure which BSC(s) were proposed, again will check. 

[iands]

On 13/10/2020 at 21:48, ess1uk said:

What BTS is being used in the central section?

 

Apologies to ees1uk for the delay in responding with a reply, had to deal with a minor calamity before it developed into a major one. To answer the question raised, there are (were?) 11 proposed BTSs for the CRL Central Section, with 3 proposed Cell Enhancers (with numerous Optical Units and all the other interfaces, power supplies etc., etc.). All the GSMR kit on the Central Section is owned and maintained by Crossrail. As for the BSC, at the time of my involvement with the project, a single BSC was to be used with diverse feeds (from it) to 3 Crossrail locations, Pudding Mill Lane, Abbey Wood and the NR West Core Node (TBC, but it was assumed either Paddington or Royal Oak). The actual BSC was also TBC.

 

Hope this helps.

[ess1uk]

1 hour ago, iands said:

Apologies to ees1uk for the delay in responding with a reply, had to deal with a minor calamity before it developed into a major one. To answer the question raised, there are (were?) 11 proposed BTSs for the CRL Central Section, with 3 proposed Cell Enhancers (with numerous Optical Units and all the other interfaces, power supplies etc., etc.). All the GSMR kit on the Central Section is owned and maintained by Crossrail. As for the BSC, at the time of my involvement with the project, a single BSC was to be used with diverse feeds (from it) to 3 Crossrail locations, Pudding Mill Lane, Abbey Wood and the NR West Core Node (TBC, but it was assumed either Paddington or Royal Oak). The actual BSC was also TBC.

 

Hope this helps.

Are the BTS from Kapsch?

are they the BTSR?

i only ask as they are the newest model

[jamie92208]

Can soneone please tell me what all these acronyms mean please. BTS, BTC, etc.

 

Jamie

[david.hill64]

For the reasons that Simon has outlined I think it unlikely that Crossrail would be thinking about abandoning CBTC for the central section at this time. However, some observations:

CBTC is (was?) only allowed in the central section under a derogation from the European Commission; the derogation requires that there is a migration path to ETCS, so it is possible that this has been factored in to the design of the ETCS sections.

Reasons for allowing CBTC included headway requirements (now achieved with Thameslink ETCS) and PSD interfacing (achieved on Bangkok Skytrain, which isn't an ETCS system but uses ETCS hardware) so the technical reasons for using CBTC may no longer be valid (if they ever were).

When I was evaluating proposals for the Istanbul Marmaray project, Siemens had an excellent technical solution to the requirement for CBTC to be fitted to the local trains and ETCS to the freight and other passenger trains. Siemens CBTC was able to fall back seamlessly into ETCS mode (with a hot standby) in case of CBTC failure. It is therefore possible (but speculation on my part) that migration of the CBTC to ETCS on the central section may not be too difficult. Doing it before revenue service will save much pain later.

Removing one set of signalling equipment will assist system integration issues and later aid reliability/availability. However, it will give Bombardier a headache in changing onboard equipment.

[iands]

10 hours ago, ess1uk said:

Are the BTS from Kapsch?

are they the BTSR?

i only ask as they are the newest model

I left the project before procurement of the radio hardware was purchased, but it was assumed the Nortel replacement kit (Kapsch) would be used. 

[iands]

10 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

Can soneone please tell me what all these acronyms mean please. BTS, BTC, etc.

 

Jamie

BTS = Base Transceiver Sysem (ie a radio base station) 

BSC = Base Station Controller (what groups of BTSs connect to, and interfaces BTSs with the Mobile Services Switching Centre, MSC). The above form the main building blocks of the GSM-R system (there are a few other elements required). For the UK GSM-R system, there are 2 MSCs, 8 BSCs and approx 3000 BTSs. 

[John Harris]

On 24/08/2020 at 09:42, DY444 said:

 

*As do I. 

 

Frankly I don't see it being an issue which will influence the election.  TfL are broke and that is unlikely to be rectified in a hurry and plenty in the Mayor's party despise the over 60s for having the temerity to exercise their right to vote how they see fit so there will be some resistance there. 

 

As we stand now the only way I see it being fully re-instated is if it is decided at some point that more people travelling will encourage others that it is safe to do so (which seems unlikely) or if the polls do show Khan behind (which seems highly unlikely despite the appalling job he has done).  There is a better chance imo it might come back just on the buses but I wouldn't put money on it.

 

It seems that the Government are willing to bail out Transport For London, to the tune of £1Billion, but are demanding that free travel for school children and seniors (it's not clear if that is the 60+ card or the over 65 ones) is removed in return.

 

jch