Building kits for Tyneside in the BR era. J24 and PDK D49/2

[Jon4470]

27 minutes ago, rowanj said:

Folks might be interested to see the etched parts you get for the Worsley Works Ex-NER Clerestory Dia 46 4 compt Brake 3rd. These kits are described as "scratch aids" but , body wise, are mainly missing vents and gas lamps as far as I can tell The parts cover roof, floor, sides and ends. The brass is a bit thicker than on the D&S kits - more akin to PDK.

The service even in these trying times was excellent. micklner was seeking some clerestory roof parts, and I don't know if Worsley will supply the roof etch as a spare, or if it will meet what was needed, but the photos may give a clue.

 

 

 

 

Hello John

 

i’ll be Interested to see how you get on with these etches. I could do with a few to fill in gaps. (Although I really should get on and build the D&S ones first.....)

 

Jon

[rowanj]

1 hour ago, Jon4470 said:

 

Hello John

 

i’ll be Interested to see how you get on with these etches. I could do with a few to fill in gaps. (Although I really should get on and build the D&S ones first.....)

 

Jon

I'll be interested too, Jon. I'm still at the lower end of a steep learning curve. ...

[micklner]

Worsley will do the roof seperate , well at least the ones I have on order. I have no idea, if he can do any others parts he lists as well, this the first time I have used his products. The etches look good.

[MarkC]

Those etches look good, John. Will go well with the Isinglass Fox bogies. As for roof vents, lamps etc, Andrew at Wizard Models may have suitable offerings? I think that Markits do torpedo vents too.

 

Mark

[rowanj]

13 hours ago, MarkC said:

Those etches look good, John. Will go well with the Isinglass Fox bogies. As for roof vents, lamps etc, Andrew at Wizard Models may have suitable offerings? I think that Markits do torpedo vents too.

 

Mark

Hi Mark. I probably have enough torpedo vents, and can probably get enough gas lamps from my "electrified" D&S Brake build. I suspect the underframe detail from Dart/MJT will suffice. What I don't have and presume I'll need to source, is a casting or etch for the guards lookout. Of course, I'm also faced with the dilemma of knowing where everything should go on the roof and underframe, a cursory search not having yet produced any details.

 

it will, in theory, be a little while before I begin this coach- though I suspect we wont be doing very much other than modelling, reading and T.V. for a while yet. I've dug out a very old NUCast G5 kit and will have a stab at that. My initial thought was to build it, as Mikemeg did, as the one-of with extended tanks, but, looking at the kit parts, that looks too difficult (for me). I would also want to fit the push-pull gear which the loco carried, but no-one seems to produce them now Dave Alexander has retired. So if I do build one, I'll go down the LRM route as Mike did.

 

Finally, the D&S Composite is almost finished, and the Precision Track Dirt looks very nice. It sits as a good comparison with the Brake painted in darkened Humbrol ( Matt 29 is an almost perfect match for the Precision ( Forgotten the Number), Incidentally, I discovered that Humbrol  Matt 29 is an almost perfect match for the Precision colour.. I'll take photos when the light is better.

 

 

Edited March 29, 2020 by rowanj

[MarkC]

6 minutes ago, rowanj said:

Hi Mark. I probably have enough torpedo vents, and can probably get enough gas lamps from my "electrified" D&S Brake build. I suspect the underframe detail from Dart/MJT will suffice. What I don't have and presume I'll need to source, is a casting or etch for the guards lookout. Of course, I'm also faced with the dilemma of knowing where everything should go on the roof and underframe, a cursory search not having yet produced any details.

 

it will, in theory, be a little while before I begin this coach- though I suspect we wont be doing very much other than modelling, reading and TC for a while yet. I've dug out a very old NUCast G5 kit and will have a stab at that. My initial thought was to build it, as Mikemeg did, as the one-of with extended tanks, but, looking at the kit parts, that looks too difficult (for me). I would also want to fit the push-pull gear which the loco carried, but no-one seems to produce them now Dave Alexander has retired. So if I do build one, I'll go down the LRM route as Mike did.

 

Finally, the D&S Composite is almost finished, and the Precision Track Dirt looks very nice. It sits as a good comparison with the Brake painted in darkened Humbrol ( Matt 29 is an almost perfect match for the Precision ( Forgotten the Number), Incidentally, I discovered that Humbrol  Matt 29 is an almost perfect match for the Precision colour.. I'll take photos when the light is better.

 

 

Hi John

 

The ducket - it might be possible to build one up from styrene sheet? As far as detailing goes - I may have some details in books at home - but getting home is, as you may have read, a little problematic at present...

 

The Nucast G5 isn't a bad model for its age - I have 2 of them, plus one of Dave's, which, it has to be said, is a superior beast The extended tank version could easily be done, again, with styrene, but the push-pull equipment would have to be fabricated. Doable, if a little fiddly.

 

I look forward to seeing your photos of the Composite.

 

Cheers

Mark

 

[rowanj]

The ex-NER Coaches posed together. The composite roof needs a touch adjusting and a touch -up here and there , but you get the idea . I know that the coach was downgraded to all-3rd by the end of the day, and I have no idea whether they survived long enough to get the BR number, but if information arrives which shows what they looked like by 1950, it's easily changed. I also don't know if a 1 was applied to the first class compartment doors before the downgrade. It's easier to add them than take them off if evidence is found.

 

The composite, unlike the brake, is still gas-lit, and the solebars are brown, rather than black. I have, however, omitted the running board between the bogies, as I'm confident that they would have been removed by the LNER,

 

The photo illustrates the 2 suggestions I received for the plainer LNER Brown. The Composite is Precision Track Dirt, and the Brake is Humbrol Brown with a touch of added black. I'm quite pleased with the contrast, even before any weathering. I don't think either shade is "right" or "wrong"

 

 

Edited March 29, 2020 by rowanj

[rowanj]

Amongst the unbuilt kits is an original NuCast G5, whitemetal chassis and all. I have had the kit for years, and actually built its' sister with a revised brass chassis which came with later versions, These turn up reasonably regularly on Ebay and don't tend to go for silly money. I doubt if SEF will re-release what is a very old (1970's?) and basic kit, even if the moulds were still OK, given that an RTR version is planned.

Mike Meggison built a superb set of these locos in various incarnations from the LRM kits, including the "ugly duckling " one-off with extended tanks. The loco actually ended its' days at Blyth on the Blyth-Monkseaton push-pulls. Normally, I wouldn't have dreamt of trying to build this loco, but, as MarkC (Richardson) says, it's easy with a few bits of styrene. Easy for you to say, Mark, bobbing about on the ocean. But, given that I can always just revert to a standard version of the G5 if it doesn't work, here goes.....

The first photo, courtesy of Mike and ,I believe, Mick Nicholson, shows the prototype.

Edited April 2, 2020 by rowanj

[rowanj]

The chassis

 

As far as possible. I'm building this from the spares box, so will use the cast chassis if I can. I know they are old hat, and folk tend to replace them, but none of my engines work too hard and the G5 will only pull 3 or 4 coaches in normal service.

The issue with 0-4-4 locos is balance - the back end is always too heavy. I remember trying and failing to get a NuCast G5 to run 30 years ago. I packed the smokebox and boiler on this current build with lead, but it still tipped back, so I came up with a cunning plan.

I filed and reamed out the axle holes to take brass bearing. whether this is strictly necessary, I don't know, but it ensures the wheels revolve smoothly. the chassis is designed for an X04 type motor, and I did consider fitting a D13 to an SEF adapter, but the motor would be visible in the cab. So I filed out the space for the gear on the rear axle - simple but laborious- to allow a Highlevel Compact+ to fit. I'd intended to use a cheap Mitsumi motor, but these need to be fitted askew to the gearbox back etch , and I found I couldn't get the boiler/firebox to cleat it, so I used my last Mashima 1020. This leaves the whole cab clear, which will be helpful later when I add interior detail.

The instructions tell you to use a spring on the rear bogie to keep the chassls front, and therefore the driving wheels, on the track. I've never had much success with this, especially on old kits, so decided on drastic action - the cunning plan referred to earlier.

I cut off the rear of the whitemetal chassis just behind the fixing point for the bogie/trailing truck. The chassis block is now an 0-4-0, but looks as it should once the bogie is fitted. My original plan was to replace the rear with styrene sheet glued to the remaining front end,, and I actually made a pair, complete with the cut-outs for the bogie. However, at the body has no cab floor in the kit, I have fitted this from styrene, and it may be simpler to represent the missing chassis rear by fixing those pieces to the cab floor. At least now I have a working, non -bobbing chassis.

[mikemeg]

John,

 

Re the G5 Ugly Duckling, I never did find a drawing showing the dimensions of the tank extensions, so I made a 4mm drawing from various photographs, including the one shown above. Of course the apparent lack of an official drawing of this modification does mean that no one should criticise the dimensions as being incorrect.

 

Worth noting the large curved bracket which fixed the front of the tank extension to the boiler and smokebox. This is clearly shown on some photographs.

 

Anyway, you've shown the prototype so here is my interpretation of what this loco looked like. This modification, seemingly made to extend the range of this locomotive, was never rolled out, so 67340 remained unique until its withdrawal.

 

On a white metal loco superstructure, I too would be inclined to use plasticard, which would allow some 'fine tuning' of the tank extensions prior to attaching them to the tank fronts. If I can help, in any way, with this then please just PM me or ask the question on here, just In case anyone else is modelling this loco.

 

Finally, a photo of the ugly duckling and a mid way complete picture of the three of them. The push and pull gear, shown on the first photo and eventually fitted to two of the three of them, is a Dave Alexander product and is one of the best pieces of white metal casting that I've ever seen.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

Edited April 2, 2020 by mikemeg

[MarkC]

Great stuff, John - and thanks, Mike, for endorsing my suggestion re plasticard.

 

Looking at your photo of the chassis highlights the balance problems of the original kit, doesn't it? All that whitemetal aft of the rear drivers, and then a big XO4 motor as well, compounding the problem.

 

I look forward to your next update

 

Mark

[micklner]

      I have a just acquired Nucast G6 to , it  will made using a small can motor N Drive 1015 off ebay and a High Level Roadrunner plus gearbox , hopefully it will fit into the Boiler, with the motor above the drivers plus some lead , time will tell if there is enough room . if not the same way as your layout with far less weight hanging out  at the rear. Luckily the G6 has a etched chassis !! , and much better castings then the Nucast G5 I used to have ,it never worked well, and was sold on a long time ago.

 

    You do not want any weight over the rear if possible. I suggest fit a smaller motor if you use (similar to the above link motor ) your current set up. The 1420 is heavier and much better used on Pacifics etc .

 

   I have also built a old Geo Norton ( now LRM)  G5 with the small can motor facing to the rear, it is fitted with a Dave Alexander chassis ( the Norton chassis would simply not work)  and Alexander Push Pull Gear. It pulls ok , much improved running achieved when I fitted pick ups to the bogie as well.

Edited April 3, 2020 by micklner

[Bucoops]

3 hours ago, micklner said:

      I have a just acquired Nucast G6 to , it  will made using a small can motor N Drive 1015 off ebay and a High Level Roadrunner plus gearbox , hopefully it will fit into the Boiler, with the motor above the drivers plus some lead , time will tell if there is enough room . if not the same way as your layout with far less weight hanging out  at the rear. Luckily the G6 has a etched chassis !! , and much better castings then the Nucast G5 I used to have ,it never worked well, and was sold on a long time ago.

 

    You do not want any weight over the rear if possible. I suggest fit a smaller motor if you use (similar to the above link motor ) your current set up. The 1420 is heavier and much better used on Pacifics etc .

 

   I have also built a old Geo Norton ( now LRM)  G5 with the small can motor facing to the rear, it is fitted with a Dave Alexander chassis ( the Norton chassis would simply not work)  and Alexander Push Pull Gear. It pulls ok , much improved running achieved when I fitted pick ups to the bogie as well.

 

Do you happen to have any photos of the push pull gear? I tried to get some but inquired just as Dave Alexander was closing up shop.

 

Thanks

[micklner]

6 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

 

Do you happen to have any photos of the push pull gear? I tried to get some but inquired just as Dave Alexander was closing up shop.

 

Thanks

I will try and do some for you .

[rowanj]

I did a bit more this morning, but as usual, found balancing the kit hugely frustrating even after all the butchery. I had considered, as Mick suggests, to put the motor in the boiler, but a 1020 is very light and I decided that packing the boiler with lead was a safer bet. Today, I found that even the limited weight of the front and rear cab spectacle plates and rear plate of the coal bunker caused a rocking motion, I fixed some lead on the chassis front, and bending up the bogie link seems to have done the trick. I may replace the cab roof, just to keep the weight down at the rear. But anyone who can get these chassis to work easily has my admiration.

 

I also had a first stab at the extended tanks, but wasn't happy with how they looked. I'll try again, but, to be honest, my mind is still inclining towards using an LRM kit, and building the tanks in brass, The push-pull gear is a necessity with this loco, and I'm not persuaded that I can make a decent stab at it. Gone are the days when a quick phone call to Dave Alexander would result in a 10 minute trip for a chat and cup of tea to pick one up.

 

But here is a picture of the basic carcase of the loco, and the adapted chassis. the Blutack is simply holding the motor where it needs to sit, and I think my next task will be to try to get it running to ensure it goes properly. But I'm sick of it at the moment, so it's going back into the box for now.

 

 

[micklner]

As promised my Geo Norton G5 . If anymore needed let me know.

 

I am not surprised at tshe NUcast G5 problem mine was'nt much better . At least the one I have works.

 

 

 

 

[Bucoops]

Fantastic, thank you

[Brit70053]

I'm following the progress of your G5 build with interest John, always having resisted  temptation to buy  the Nu Cast version over the years because of the reputation for difficulty in achieving balance. I finally built two of the later Alexander Models with reasonable success about 3 or 4 years ago and found the sprung bolt attachment of the bogie helped a great deal in overcoming the difficulty with the wheel arrangement and weight distribution. As much lead as possible over and forward of the drivers was of course a further help . 

 

           This brings me to a question and a possible suggestion concerning your Nu Cast  build.  Are the tank castings hollow inside and is there any prospect of adding ballast into the portion of the tanks above the rear drivers ?  Secondly, you are modelling the loco with the extended tanks, which also lie forward of the drivers and are contemplating scratch building these from Brass. Do you see a useful prospect of being able to add ballast within these to add further weight over the front pair of driving wheels ?

 

             You may , probably have , thought of all this yourself, so my apologies if ' teaching Granny etc. etc. and I wish you well with progress on your model.

         

             Might I just ask anyone if they know of a source of the etched coal cage as separately available part(s) for the G5. The solid cast version in the Alexander Model was the only part I couldn't bring myself to use and I resorted to plastic strip construction which was an improvement, but not entirely satisfactory.  Any advice would be much appreciated.

 

              Regards,

 

                                John

   

            

[micklner]

The only possible source for etched G5 parts nowdays would be London Road Models, if you are lucky they might be part of a small etch sheet , I would imagine that would still be expensive however. Otherwise scratchbuilding  is the only option I know off.

[rowanj]

3 hours ago, Brit70053 said:

I'm following the progress of your G5 build with interest John,

            

Hi John. good to hear from you.

 

I cant add anything to Mick's post on the coal cage. They are castings in this kit, I'll be using them, but suspect your scratch-built versions will be as good or better.

 

I do now have the chassis balanced, and I can push it round curves, but it was a fight to get to that point. You need to get the weight RIGHT at the front to counter even the modest extra weight of the cab and bunker. I found weight in the boiler and tanks only got you so far, and had to resort to using the bogie drawbar to keep the thing stable. Next time I speak to Peter at 52F, I'll enquire whether his chassis, which was designed for Dave's kit, is suitable for the NuCast version. On the basis that there is no point completing the body if the chassis wont run, I'll work on that over the next few days. It is a bare lump of metal, so , thus far, I've drilled out holes to take wire for the very visible brakes and outside linkage. What a chore that was. I think there are sandboxes in the kit, but none of the very prominent pipework under the cab, so I may have a go at representing some of that.

 

I have more or less decided not to build the extended tank version on this model, and have e.mailed 52F to suggest that, as he has nothing better to do in the next 12 weeks, he should have a go at the push-pull mechanism. We shall see.

 

John

[Brit70053]

Hi John,

 

               First of all, thanks to Micklner and yourself for your comments about the coal cage and from previous enquiries it would seem that LRM would be the only possible source at the moment. I did once ask Dave Alexander if he did a fret, but he said that although he'd improved his kit with brass boiler and smokebox wrapper, the cage was still whitemetal and solid.

                Which brings us back to the chassis you are dealing with. As you say, one of the featureless lumps of whitemetal which used to suffice as a kit chassis block in days gone by and you have done really well to get it balanced to the degree you've achieved.

                I wouldn't like to hazard a guess as to whether you could combine an Alexander  new design chassis with a Nu Cast body, though intuition says there 'should' be a way, but how much extra work would be necessary, who knows ? I'm not familiar with Peter at 52F , but it sounds as though he should be a man with an answer, as you've said.

                 I note you've decided against modelling the unique G5 with extended tanks, so wonder if you've decided which Loco will get the push/pull gear you are obviously keen to include ? 

                  Whatever, do press on John, I'm sure your model will be a credit to you in the end.            

              

 

I've hopefully attached photos of the two G5s I completed with the coal cages from plastic strip, though I'm afraid they don't show up that clearly in these shots, hastily taken in a totally unsuitable location./ background at the time of construction. - Perhaps just as well?

 

Regards,

 

                 John

[rowanj]

Hi John

Quite a few of the South Blyth G5's has push-pull gear fitted for use on the Avenue Branch from Blyth to Monkseaton. I;m not wedded to fitting it now the extended tanks loco is back on the drawing board, as there were plenty others without the gear on the Blyth and Newbiggin to Newcastle trains. But it would be an obvious omission on the Ugly Duckling and makes a nice variation on the standard loco.

I still recall the days when I could pop down to Northumbria Models in Forest Hall (if I had the cash) and pick up a kit off the shelf, or know that if I needed wheels, motor or spares there was a good chance one of the local model shops would have them. Dave Alexander is a really big miss, not least as he is a very nice man.

52F Models website is well worth a look, and Peter Stranger another old school modeller, always willing to help.

John

[MarkC]

Hi John

 

I can't see any reason why Peter 52F's G5 chassis wouldn't be able to be used on your Nucast G5, other than because you've already built the main carcass of the body, any modifications to get it to fit nicely might be trickier than starting from a virgin kit, but fingers crossed for you

 

I've not yet built one of his G5 chassis, but I have built examples of his chassis for both an A8 and H1. They really are nice to do, although they are fully compensated by design, including the bogie, so are definitely a class above the old Nucast whitemetal lump! (I'm presuming that he has used the same principles on the G5 as he did on the bogies of the A8 & H1). However, his instructions are excellent, and I cannot recommend them highly enough.

 

Cheers

Mark

[Brit70053]

Quite agree that Dave Alexander is badly missed, he is indeed a very nice man and latterly I almost got to a stage where I hoped something might be missing from one of his kits, such was the joy of a 'phone or face to face conversation with Dave, such a pleasant and obliging Gent.

 

Reminiscing about Model Shops, I didn't know of Northumbria Models while they were at Forest Hall, but enjoyed visiting their shop in Waterloo Street in Newcastle for kits, parts and motors. If they didn't have what I needed, there was always The Model Shop ( 'Upstairs To The Trains' )originally on Blenheim Street, where I first bought parts and kits to expand interests from RTR. Newcastle could be an expensive place for this Durham Lad.

 

Look forward to reading more of your progress with the G5.

 

Regards,

 

               John

 

 

[CXW1]

Morning All,

 

I built a 52F G5 chassis a few years ago and had no problems in using it with a Nu Cast body. I built the chassis in EM gauge and had to remove a fair amount of metal from inside the body. I ended up 'breaking through' the front splashers, but Peter supplies a replacement etch on the assumption that this will happen. I don't think this will be an issue in OO. The 52F chassis is weight-bearing and compensated on all 8 wheels and eliminates all of the usual problems associated with 0-4-4s. 

 

I originally built the Nu Cast kit about 30 years ago and it was possibly my first (or maybe second) attempt at a loco kit. The chassis in my kit was brass rather than a metal lump. It still wasn't very good though.

 

The previous post got me reminiscing. I bought the kit from Northumbria Models on Waterloo Street in Newcastle, which I agree was an excellent place for kits and other bits and bobs. It still has the original Northumbria Models price tag of £38 on the box!!

 

The body is starting to look a bit battered now and I really need to finish off the lining. The old Nu Cast kit was, in my opinion, an average body let down by a useless chassis. Now I have something where an excellent chassis is let down by an average body. I could of course improve the body but I think if I started I would end up scratch building most of it. The only modification I have made is to fit a cab interior because the 52F chassis doesn't protrude into the cab like the Nu Cast chassis did. I will leave the rest of it as it is because it reminds me of a previous era of Northumbria Models, the Model Shop on Blenheim Street, the Guild Hall exhibition etc.

 

Hope you don't mind me butting in. 

 

Cheers

 

Chris