Building kits for Tyneside in the BR era. J24 and PDK D49/2

[Bucoops]

55 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Thanks Bucoops,

 

unfortunately, it doesn't say anything about the glazing and the paint finish is so gloopy that it is difficult to tell what the detail looks like on the finished model. The build looks OK though. The only way I'm going to find out is to order something. However, a rather nice brass NPC kit has just been finalized from elsewhere and orders are now being taken. I  will have a punt at that first.

 

Hi Andrew,

 

I don't know if you have an account on facebook at all but Isinglass Models is active on there and responds to queries.

 

Somewhere i have a misprint they sent me as a teaser for what the printed sides look like - if I knew where it was I'd take some photos!

 

However from the facebook page (I'm sure they won't mind me copying the photo): 

 

The rebate looks to be aimed at reducing the visible body thickness.

 

Edited April 19, 2020 by Bucoops

[Headstock]

32 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

 

Hi Andrew,

 

I don't know if you have an account on facebook at all but Isinglass Models is active on there and responds to queries.

 

Somewhere i have a misprint they sent me as a teaser for what the printed sides look like - if I knew where it was I'd take some photos!

 

However from the facebook page (I'm sure they won't mind me copying the photo): 

 

The rebate looks to be aimed at reducing the visible body thickness.

 

 

Thanks Bucoops,

 

that is most illuminating. Gosh, they do look very flimsy, I can't help but feel that a better solution would be a composite kit with the sides produced as brass etches. Again, perhaps not such and issue with LNER and LNER pre grouping NPC's due to the more solid body sides.

 

A shame that Isinglass have initially gone for those wretched BY's from the NPC fleet. What is it with those things, people keep putting kits of them out there, some people even build the kits. Sadly, the Isinglass kit seems to be no more accurate than the ones that have gone before. There are massive gaps in the LNER NPC fleet of much more typical, more useful and frankly cooler stuff. It would be great if Isinglass have a look at those.

[micklner]

2 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Thanks Mick,

 

pain in the bum glazing is a bit of a turn off if it is harder to work with than brass, especially if it doesn't look as good. Brass is usually a pretty good thickness for Gresley glazing. Moulded plastics, resins, 3d prints tend to be over scale unless a rebate in the back of the side is allowed for. Other solutions for that type of media are, as I say, a pain in the bum. However, this is less of a concern with the likes of the 56'6'' full brakes because of the comparative lack of glazing.

 

The NPC is a kit for the original steel panelled BG's of Dia 45.

Dont think I fancy lining out the LNER version of that BG !!. Looks a lovely model however !!.

[Headstock]

1 hour ago, micklner said:

Dont think I fancy lining out the LNER version of that BG !!. Looks a lovely model however !!.

 

Mick,

 

I confess to be conflicted on the subject, conflicted because I like a new challenge. Producing a fully lined and painted beading and panelled teak effect on a steel carriage has a lot to offer in terms of developing and learning new skills. That is something that I always seek to do, rather than just sitting on my laurels. On the other hand, the prototype carriage that I'm interested in, was so dirty in my modelling period, that the livery was not visible until much later, when a portion of the filth was cleaned away in 1955. This revealed that  the pre-war fully lined and painted teak livery was still extant beneath the grime.

 

A case of a modelling livery challenge vs prototype fidelity. A half-way house that incorporates both full livery and a weathered finish is one possibility but this would be a particular difficult paint job to pull off. It would require the same attention of detail to the livery and the possibility of then ruining it. Steel carriages weather in an entirely different way from genuine teak ones. Obviously, a heavily weathered finish that hides the livery would be the easier option and prototypically correct but not that much of a challenge.

 

Edited April 19, 2020 by Headstock
add word and space

[Bucoops]

12 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Mick,

 

I confess to be conflicted on the subject, conflicted because I like a new challenge. Producing a fully lined and painted beading and panelled teak effect on a steel carriage has a lot to offer in terms of developing and learning new skills. That is something that I always seek to do, rather than just sitting on my laurels. On the other hand, the prototype carriage that I'm interested in, was so dirty in my modelling period, that the livery was not visible until much later, when a portion of the filth was cleaned away in 1955. This revealed that  the pre-war fully lined and painted teak livery was still extant beneath the grime.

 

A case of a modelling livery challenge vs prototype fidelity. A half-way house that incorporates both full livery and a weathered finish is one possibility but this would be a particular difficult paint job to pull off. It would require the same attention of detail to the livery and the possibility of then ruining it. Steel carriages weather in an entirely different way from genuine teak ones. Obviously, a heavily weathered finish that hides the livery would be the easier option and prototypically correct but not that much of a challenge.

 

 

I am also intending to puchase a D45 - I would be more than happy for you to do a fully lined, teak effect livery as a challenge on mine  Although I suspect in mid 1939 it would likely be not particularly clean then either.

[rowanj]

The rebate is the same on my coach, so lots of cutting of glazing ahead. I imagine fitting the pieces with Glue n' Glaze will be the way forward.

incidentally, with the kit I got a copy of the Isinglass drawing, scaled down to fit a sheet of A4, but very useful, as you can imagine,.

[micklner]

2 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Mick,

 

I confess to be conflicted on the subject, conflicted because I like a new challenge. Producing a fully lined and painted beading and panelled teak effect on a steel carriage has a lot to offer in terms of developing and learning new skills. That is something that I always seek to do, rather than just sitting on my laurels. On the other hand, the prototype carriage that I'm interested in, was so dirty in my modelling period, that the livery was not visible until much later, when a portion of the filth was cleaned away in 1955. This revealed that  the pre-war fully lined and painted teak livery was still extant beneath the grime.

 

A case of a modelling livery challenge vs prototype fidelity. A half-way house that incorporates both full livery and a weathered finish is one possibility but this would be a particular difficult paint job to pull off. It would require the same attention of detail to the livery and the possibility of then ruining it. Steel carriages weather in an entirely different way from genuine teak ones. Obviously, a heavily weathered finish that hides the livery would be the easier option and prototypically correct but not that much of a challenge.

 

I rest my case here !!

 

https://www.steve-banks.org/modelling/228-gresley-all-steel-bg-model

 

Apologies for clogging up someone elses thread as well, while I am here again !!

[rowanj]

29 minutes ago, micklner said:

I rest my case here !!

 

https://www.steve-banks.org/modelling/228-gresley-all-steel-bg-model

 

Apologies for clogging up someone elses thread as well, while I am here again !!

No apologies necessary. Whether we like it or not, 3D Printing is here to stay and will only grow, Learning to use it is just another facet of Railway Modelling as far as I'm concerned, 

[Norton Wood]

8 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Thanks Bucoops,

 

unfortunately, it doesn't say anything about the glazing and the paint finish is so gloopy that it is difficult to tell what the detail looks like on the finished model. The build looks OK though. The only way I'm going to find out is to order something. However, a rather nice brass NPC kit has just been finalized from elsewhere and orders are now being taken. I  will have a punt at that first.

 

Maybe I can answer that question for you as I built the set

 

So to answer your question I am using the glue, to glue in place of the glazing.

[Headstock]

14 hours ago, Norton Wood said:

 

Maybe I can answer that question for you as I built the set

 

So to answer your question I am using the glue, to glue in place of the glazing.

 

Thanks N W,

 

I have never used any of the 'stretch it across the opening' products, it again seems a very flimsy solution, is that so?

[Headstock]

18 hours ago, Bucoops said:

 

I am also intending to puchase a D45 - I would be more than happy for you to do a fully lined, teak effect livery as a challenge on mine  Although I suspect in mid 1939 it would likely be not particularly clean then either.

 

Thanks for the vote of confidence. However, I don't think that you would want me experimenting on your model with an untried technique.

[rowanj]

3 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Thanks N W,

 

I have never used any of the 'stretch it across the opening' products, it again seems a very flimsy solution, is that so?

Hi Andrew. I use Glue n Glaze on loco cab windows and spectacle plates, and find them strong. They are also too thick, possibly the way I apply them, but given that I don't see how crew can see through the real things most of the time, I'm quite happy with the effect.

Perhaps others have more success in getting a thin, yet strong, clear see through window than I do.

I will use that glue to fit glazing pieces in the Isinglass kit , I think. I'm still not clear from NW  whether this is what he did it if he used the stuff for the whole of the windows.

[Norton Wood]

10 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Thanks N W,

 

I have never used any of the 'stretch it across the opening' products, it again seems a very flimsy solution, is that so?

 

It can be, it's why I ended up choosing to not fill the windows with it. I applied a thin layer onto the bodyside around the window then applied the clear plastic over the top. I did find it came away in places so around those area's I applied an extremely thin piece of PVA glue not covering the window. To note at the minute I have only glazed the No.5 & No.4 coach. 

 

Thanks 

Tom

[rowanj]

I'm (sort of) building these coaches in parallel, and the contrast in technique and appearance is quite interesting. The Isinglass body shell is basically complete- obviously the roof isn't fixes, and interior compartments are to be fitted, all of which will add strength to the body. The fit of the parts was excellent, and only superglue used as an adhesive. The bogies on both coaches are the Isinglass prints, and don't yet have wheels, though I did amend one of the fixing points on the Isinglass coach to check that I knew how to fit it. I'll be using MJT parts and trust their weight, particularly of the battery boxes will suffice, but a couple of lead strips above each bogie will also be added if tests show its needed.

The Worsley etches are excellent, but that is all you get. I did find a picture of what looks like this diagram on Paul Bartlett's site. Worsley's webpage says the coaches build "in the Comet Way", which is fine if you have built one, but I downloaded the guide on Wizard Models site, and have got this far. I'll solder up the ends today, wife and other chores permitting, and then build the roof and trussing. If anyone can point to appropriate photos of a similar coach, I'd be very grateful.

The 6 Compartment Dia, was apparently designed for high-density Inner Suburban work from Marylebone, but a few went to other appropriate locations with similar needs. Whether Newcastle was one of them, I have no idea, but it's not beyond the realms of possibility.

[jwealleans]

I hope these might be of use - a mixture of gas lit and electric and not all built by me:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rowanj]

Those photos are just what I needed, Jonathan, and it's very generous of you to post them. Very many thanks.

[Headstock]

11 hours ago, rowanj said:

I'm (sort of) building these coaches in parallel, and the contrast in technique and appearance is quite interesting. The Isinglass body shell is basically complete- obviously the roof isn't fixes, and interior compartments are to be fitted, all of which will add strength to the body. The fit of the parts was excellent, and only superglue used as an adhesive. The bogies on both coaches are the Isinglass prints, and don't yet have wheels, though I did amend one of the fixing points on the Isinglass coach to check that I knew how to fit it. I'll be using MJT parts and trust their weight, particularly of the battery boxes will suffice, but a couple of lead strips above each bogie will also be added if tests show its needed.

The Worsley etches are excellent, but that is all you get. I did find a picture of what looks like this diagram on Paul Bartlett's site. Worsley's webpage says the coaches build "in the Comet Way", which is fine if you have built one, but I downloaded the guide on Wizard Models site, and have got this far. I'll solder up the ends today, wife and other chores permitting, and then build the roof and trussing. If anyone can point to appropriate photos of a similar coach, I'd be very grateful.

The 6 Compartment Dia, was apparently designed for high-density Inner Suburban work from Marylebone, but a few went to other appropriate locations with similar needs. Whether Newcastle was one of them, I have no idea, but it's not beyond the realms of possibility.

 

Evening John,

 

A Thompson CL look rather snazzy parallel parked between those two little 'divils'. Do you have any pictures of the fit of the ends on your BT (6)? Those on the BY recently built by TW looked very weird. I'm considering the BT (5), at least the sides, many of these were allocated to the Nottingham and Leicester area. If it looks good, I would be interested in the possibility of producing the GNR 61' 6'' BCK and third, the big 8 wheel clerestories and of course the 56' 6'' BG.

 

21 hours ago, Norton Wood said:

 

It can be, it's why I ended up choosing to not fill the windows with it. I applied a thin layer onto the bodyside around the window then applied the clear plastic over the top. I did find it came away in places so around those area's I applied an extremely thin piece of PVA glue not covering the window. To note at the minute I have only glazed the No.5 & No.4 coach. 

 

Thanks 

Tom

 

Thanks Tom,

 

that makes things clearer.

[rowanj]

A few more shots of the Isinglass coach. Bogies with NEM pockets fitted, and ends illustrated. The fit of the parts is very good, though I found a smear of filler at the corners rounds thigs off. The roof, of course, is not yet fitted properly, but I hope this shows the fit is really pretty good,

[Headstock]

2 hours ago, rowanj said:

A few more shots of the Isinglass coach. Bogies with NEM pockets fitted, and ends illustrated. The fit of the parts is very good, though I found a smear of filler at the corners rounds thigs off. The roof, of course, is not yet fitted properly, but I hope this shows the fit is really pretty good,

 

Good evening John,

 

it's the ends that put me off, they don't look anything like the real carriage. They should fit between the sides forming a sharp edge. Instead, they seem to go on like a cork on to a bottle, this extends the length of the sides further than they should be and means the sharp edge is lost, having to be rounded off with filler.

 

Have a look at this real BY and The one built by TW with the extended cork in a bottle ends. Notice how close the beading is to the edge of the end.

 

 

The end of the carriage should be flush with the bufferbeam and not overhang it. The point at which the joint requires filling should be the end of the carriage. The end shouldn't extend the sides of the carriage.

 

 

P.S. As you can see, there was no beading on the top edge of LNER carriages as included on the model.

Edited April 22, 2020 by Headstock

[rowanj]

Helpful as always, Andrew. All of those issues could have been dealt with had I been aware of them, and I can still sort the heading at the top of the roof with some careful filing. The buffer beam and back sides are a single print, but would be easily split, and the floor and sides filed to make the join you mention. Next time...

[Headstock]

This may be of help John,

 

although this nine compartment third was built on an ex GC underframe, the roof, sides and ends are pure Gresley. They demonstrate the relationship between the three very well I think.

[rowanj]

A couple of observations and a correction on the ends of the Isinglass coaches.

 

The correction - the buffer beam is printed integral to the floorpan, This should help to get the ends and the beam flush.

 

I had a tentative try to take the ends apart, but the glue is stronger than the print, and I didn't want to suffer the same issue as Tony Wright did. Even then, I managed to make a small crack, which will be invisible once the coach is completed. so basically you only get one go at these things if you use superglue.

 

But I don't see why the ends cannot be filed to fit between the sides and produce the authentic finish Andrew describes. Some work on the sides and floorpan too may be needed, but filing the prints is a doddle if normal care is taken.

 

I have begun to reduce the incorrect beading along the top of the ends, and this looks a straightforward job..

 

Quite why the prints are incorrect, I don't know. I don't have a problem putting things right, but, in this case, it would seem to have been simpler to get them right in the first place. Having said all that, I'm happy to build more of these kits, and happy to see someone producing them. 

 

Makes you think, though... if I hadn't posted what I was doing, I'd have lived in happy, blissful ignorance....

 

John

[micklner]

Re the Beading, its hard to tell from the photos.

 

Is it possible the Roof should fit behind the Bead ? .Could it be that the "Bead" is actually the end of the roof ? hopefully that makes sense.

 

The same thing perhaps,  for the BY ,that however looks like it has Bead under the Roof line.

[Headstock]

58 minutes ago, micklner said:

Re the Beading, its hard to tell from the photos.

 

Is it possible the Roof should fit behind the Bead ? .Could it be that the "Bead" is actually the end of the roof ? hopefully that makes sense.

 

The same thing perhaps,  for the BY ,that however looks like it has Bead under the Roof line.

 

Good morning Mick,

 

I'm not sure what the Isinglass intention is or how much they have looked at how these carriages were constructed. On LNER non gangway carriages, the roof doesn't overhang the ends, this is a separate piece fixed in place. On the real thing, the end beading is a continuation of the cornice that holds the canvas in place on the roof. You may recall that I did the same by adding the end beading as a separate item in our recent conversation about the roof of the Thompson deal BG.

 

It would make more sense if the roof did fit behind the beading on the model but I suspect this is not the intent.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Headstock
add info

[Headstock]

2 hours ago, rowanj said:

A couple of observations and a correction on the ends of the Isinglass coaches.

 

The correction - the buffer beam is printed integral to the floorpan, This should help to get the ends and the beam flush.

 

I had a tentative try to take the ends apart, but the glue is stronger than the print, and I didn't want to suffer the same issue as Tony Wright did. Even then, I managed to make a small crack, which will be invisible once the coach is completed. so basically you only get one go at these things if you use superglue.

 

But I don't see why the ends cannot be filed to fit between the sides and produce the authentic finish Andrew describes. Some work on the sides and floorpan too may be needed, but filing the prints is a doddle if normal care is taken.

 

I have begun to reduce the incorrect beading along the top of the ends, and this looks a straightforward job..

 

Quite why the prints are incorrect, I don't know. I don't have a problem putting things right, but, in this case, it would seem to have been simpler to get them right in the first place. Having said all that, I'm happy to build more of these kits, and happy to see someone producing them. 

 

Makes you think, though... if I hadn't posted what I was doing, I'd have lived in happy, blissful ignorance....

 

John

 

 

Morning John,

 

As you have pointed out, I think a bit of intervention on the part of the modeller may be able to sort the problem. I hope that some off these 'teething troubles' will be addressed by Isinglass, including the wrong type of roof on the tourist twin recently built by Andy (Green Howards), as this could become an awesome range of kits.