Building kits for Tyneside in the BR era. J24 and PDK D49/2

[John Tomlinson]

Coincidentally I've been considering just these issues in the construction of an old Kirk kit in my pile, one of the 51ft suburban types.

 

Andrew has hit several nails squarely on the head in his comments. The wooden bow at the end of the roof is a continuation of the cornice, and extends beyond the end by the tiniest amount. Looking at the appearance, it does indeed look as if the bead at the top of the end could well have been meant to be this wooden bow, except to get the roof seated correctly it appears the end moulding would need to be taller, and roof shorter, plus the ends do need to fit between the sides.

 

Not really relevant to this, on the Kirk kits the ends don't fit properly if you just plough ahead and stick it together, as you need to line up the lower horizontal beading on the sides with the ends, which gives a gap between the top of the ends and the roof. Once you've realised this correct assembly becomes feasible.

 

On these Isinglass kits, there was an issue raised recently in "Wright Writes" about the roof profile of some Articulated stock. I suspect it's early days for what looks to be a very promising range of kits, potentially of great use to us all, and let's hope that by highlighting these anachronisms now they can be corrected by the designer.

 

John.

[rowanj]

Roof and ends. As the photos show, the roof has a distinct rebate where it fits over the top lip of the end, so Mick's suggestion doesn't work, unfortunately. I also illustrate the effect of having filed down the top lip on one end, and even without a final tidy-up, I think it does look more realistic. The incorrect lip doubles the thickness of the end of the roof, clearly incorrectly as the prototype photos show.

I'm going to order another kit, and will take the opportunity to exchange information with Andy Edgson , hopefully stressing that I'm perfectly content with his work. I trust it will come over as constructive criticism.

Edited April 23, 2020 by rowanj

[John Tomlinson]

That's a well thought out roof. Rebate along the sides as well as ends to give a firm grip. I also like the channel in the underside in the centre to guide drilling holes for roof vents.

 

John.

[Headstock]

3 hours ago, rowanj said:

Roof and ends. As the photos show, the roof has a distinct rebate where it fits over the top lip of the end, so Mick's suggestion doesn't work, unfortunately. I also illustrate the effect of having filed down the top lip on one end, and even without a final tidy-up, I think it does look more realistic. The incorrect lip doubles the thickness of the end of the roof, clearly incorrectly as the prototype photos show.

I'm going to order another kit, and will take the opportunity to exchange information with Andy Edgson , hopefully stressing that I'm perfectly content with his work. I trust it will come over as constructive criticism.

 

 

 

 

Good work John, that alone makes a big difference to the appearance.

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by Headstock
no need to keep repeating the images.

[rowanj]

The NuCast G5 is almost there. Lined out, It still needs emblem and numbering on the LH side, and coaled. The train heater pipe has become dislodged at the rear, so that needs re-fitted, I haven't any crew at the moment, so that needs to wait, but do have some coal left- ex Barrow Hill- to fill the bunker.

67246 is a useful loco as it dotted around several sheds in the 1950's including South Blyth and Blaydon, (as well as Copley Hill) so can be legitimately used on several turns on the layout. It also didn't get push-pull apparatus fitted.

 

In theory, an RTR G5 is in the works, but when this will arrive these days is problematic. So a kit is the only option. Clearly the LRM version is vastly superior to the Dave Alexander one which is better than the NuCast, and is the only one in current production. I found the NuCast one a tricky build, and really needs even more detailing than I gave it. The cab is a case in point, so I filled it with something like what it should have. I also fitted washout plugs, as well as the brake details to the chassis. It will work as, in that dreaded phrase -"a layout loco",- but that's about all.

 

One error which I missed, and now have to live with, is the position of the boiler bands on the loco. having pushed back the dome to represent the boilers normally fitted by BR days, I forgot the remember that there should be one less band in slightly different positions, I compounded this by lining the blasted things. I'll live with it for now, and hopefully forget it over the next few months.

 

[46256]

Nice work John best wishes Brian

[rowanj]

The G5 on its' maiden voyage, with the pair of Kirks "rejuvenated" with MJT parts and the ex-NER D&S coaches,  This is a reasonably accurate early '50's scenario,, the train would be an early morning commuter from Newbiggin to Central, sent via the shorter route on the ECML rather than the electrified loop via Benton to Manors North.

[rowanj]

I thought I'd post this photo as it illustrates some of the kits running on the layout.

 

Classic ex-NER in BR days at Little Benton North. The G5 is now in service, (though the temporarily fitted cab roof seems to have become askew). I would need some persuasion to go through another NuCast G5 build again. It heads North , probably on a Morpeth stopper. The A8 has, highly improbably, been rostered on a train from Alnwick, while the modified Bachmann J72 shunts the sidings, including the D&S Birdcage Brake.

The cabin is also scratch-built, and a photo of the prototype, built when the sidings were installed in 1940, is classic wartime austerity, designed to resist, up to a point, enemy action.

For all the faults and dodgy modelling, this is the sort of sight I always had in mind when re-creating the scene of my childhood spotting.

[rowanj]

The Isinglass coach has now been under test, and runs well through even my dodgy trackwork. I used the Isinglass bogies, though was tempted to fit heavier cast ones, but in the event, this wasn't needed. I fitted some lead to the interior above the bogies, and the running test suggests this was sufficient.

 

As far as the kit is concerned, bear in mind that this is my first 3D printed kit, so has a steep learning curve. The material is more fragile than anything I am used to, and the sides, particularly at roof level between the windows are especially liable to snap, and I needed to repair 2 that I damaged. Having said that, once assembled with the roof in place, the coach will be strong enough for normal handling.

 

The issue identified with the ends seems to be the only "error" with the kit. However, a number of parts are needed to complete the model. Buffers, brake gear, dynamo and battery boxes are required for the underframe, as are footboards for bogies and the floor of the coach. The Isinglass drawing which comes with the kit is helpful in this respect. You also need to source the detail for the coach ends - I used scrap etch and some unused parts from other kits, and the result is a facsimile rather than strict reproduction.

 

You do get the torpedo vents for the roof, but, for some reason, I couldn't get away with them, so used MJT parts from Dart Castings.

 

For the first time, as an experiment, I used Glue N Glaze for the windows. I'm not convinced but the result is better than the cruel photos would have you believe, Purists will fit individual panes, but I actually feel the printed sides are thin enough to just glue glazing strip behind the windows. I'll do this next time.

 

The holes for door furniture are pre-drilled and MJT parts fit readily - just a bit of tweaking needed. Obviously, no interior comes with the kit, though I understand Isinglass supply one. I just used Ratio seats and plasticard compartment dividers, and will use Bill Bedford printed interiors to complete them.

 

I would certainly build another of these kits. The service was excellent. So far, I haven't spotted a diagram I want, but once he starts producing ex-NER stock, Robert will be my uncle.

 

The photo is progress to date, Once complete, I'll post another of the coach in service.

 

Edited May 1, 2020 by rowanj

[Jon4470]

Thanks for the posts and the detailed summary ( is that a contradiction in terms?).

 

Like you I think an exNER will get me to open my wallet and try one of these.

 

Jon

 

[micklner]

Coach looks good , however a big no to the glazing idea. Glazing is always a pain and not my idea of fun , however with that amount of windows i would always use clear plastic sheet.

[Headstock]

 

54 minutes ago, micklner said:

Glazing is always a pain

 

Yup.

[John Tomlinson]

54 minutes ago, micklner said:

Coach looks good , however a big no to the glazing idea. Glazing is always a pain and not my idea of fun , however with that amount of windows i would always use clear plastic sheet.

Quite so. I'd have thought that if one wanted consistency with the Kirks for window depth, a sheet of clear plastic along the inside of the coach would be just the job.

 

A very good outcome, and delighted to see your result - I'm sure I'll be following in your footsteps.

 

John.

[rowanj]

John, Mick..

You are correct..The glazing is not good enough, so I have stripped it off...not difficult, but slow and fiddly..and begun to replace it. I just used one continuous piece for each compartment side, rather than cut each individual window, so it isn't completely flush. However, as the sides are thinner than the Kirk kits, I think it will do, and certainly looks better than it did.

We live and learn.

Edited May 2, 2020 by rowanj

[rowanj]

 

Just needs transfers and a dynamo fitted, then some weathering, then will go into service on my NE based layout. Pity that only 18 were built and I doubt if any were within 200 miles of Newcastle. Oh well.

I confess to have enjoyed this kit, and hope that others more appropriate to my prototype location are introduced indue course. In the meantime, a loan from the GC section will be gratefully received.

[rowanj]

To round off this particular build, the kit is posed next to a standard Hornby. I see a few spots to tidy up on the roof, but I think they work OK and the kit will look good in a rake.

One issue I was never happy with, possibly because I fitted the NEM pockets incorrectly, was the extent to which the Bachmann couplings protruded over the ends, leaving far too great a gap between coaches, I tried to shorten the NM pocket, but both snapped, so the coupling is now superglued into what was left. I need to check what I did wrong before using the Isinglass Fox bogie on the ex-NER Clerestory.

 

[micklner]

1 minute ago, rowanj said:

To round off this particular build, the kit is posed next to a standard Hornby. I see a few spots to tidy up on the roof, but I think they work OK and the kit will look good in a rake.

One issue I was never happy with, possibly because I fitted the NEM pockets incorrectly, was the extent to which the Bachmann couplings protruded over the ends, leaving far too great a gap between coaches, I tried to shorten the NM pocket, but both snapped, so the coupling is now superglued into what was left. I need to check what I did wrong before using the Isinglass Fox bogie on the ex-NER Clerestory.

 

I had the same problem on my Fox Bogies, Isinglass needs to upgrade his instructions , they are very poor.

 

I glued the coupling box part, direct onto the underneath of the bogie after removing the rest of the moulding. It gives much better gap and is the right height as well. No idea why the moulding is shaped as it is.

[rowanj]

I have been picking away at the Worsley Works ex-NER Clerestory, and will now concentrate on it. It's the first Clerestory I have built, and there are no instructions, so the roof in particular will be a challenge. there is no information, for example , on the location of gas lamps or ventilators. But that is a problem for tomorrow. 

The photos show where I am up to. The basic body shell is built, and I have begun to solder in the inner etches behind the door windows. The floor has 2 half etched lips, which I have assumed fold up to 90 degrees and hold the coach body rigidly in place. Holes identify the location of the bogies, as well as where the coach ends will be bolted to the floor.

The valance also folds to provide the step running along the whole of the underframe. I tacked one in place, - it is held be notches in the floor, which were very accurate, so easy to solder in place.        

The photos show what is left of the supplied etches- essentially the roof. I assume the larger pieces are supports for the main roof, to give it the correct shape and fix it to the coach sides, and the smaller "decorated " etches are to shape the clerestory roof. Other than that, there are only door ventilators and buffer beams supplied.

None of this is intended as a complaint Worsley are clear that this is was you get, and the etching is excellent. For a quasi-beginner, it all takes a bit of thought and time to work out how it all goes together. I am quietly confident !!!

[Paul Cram]

From the drawings and instructions from D&S kits the lamps were over the centre of the door and ventilators 2' (8mm) to the right over the compartments. They would vary over the brake van.

[micklner]

This might help with the layout . Not my model the photo found on a search . I have my D&S D18 in the pending pile and can take a picture of the D&S Box cover if needed. I am pleased to say my Worsley Clerestory roofs are now paid for, and await the  etchers who have reopened.

 

 

[Headstock]

2 hours ago, rowanj said:

I have been picking away at the Worsley Works ex-NER Clerestory, and will now concentrate on it. It's the first Clerestory I have built, and there are no instructions, so the roof in particular will be a challenge. there is no information, for example , on the location of gas lamps or ventilators. But that is a problem for tomorrow. 

The photos show where I am up to. The basic body shell is built, and I have begun to solder in the inner etches behind the door windows. The floor has 2 half etched lips, which I have assumed fold up to 90 degrees and hold the coach body rigidly in place. Holes identify the location of the bogies, as well as where the coach ends will be bolted to the floor.

The valance also folds to provide the step running along the whole of the underframe. I tacked one in place, - it is held be notches in the floor, which were very accurate, so easy to solder in place.        

The photos show what is left of the supplied etches- essentially the roof. I assume the larger pieces are supports for the main roof, to give it the correct shape and fix it to the coach sides, and the smaller "decorated " etches are to shape the clerestory roof. Other than that, there are only door ventilators and buffer beams supplied.

None of this is intended as a complaint Worsley are clear that this is was you get, and the etching is excellent. For a quasi-beginner, it all takes a bit of thought and time to work out how it all goes together. I am quietly confident !!!

 

 

Afternoon John,

 

given your time period, you need to decide if your clerestory was equipped with gas or electric lighting. A choice of battery boxes and no gas lamp tops, or gas cylinders and lamp tops.

[jwealleans]

I'd second what Andrew says.   Many of these carriages were converted to electric lighting by the LNER.

 

As an aside, you'll find it easier to fit the droplights if you do them with the side in the flat, before you make it up into the basic box.  I'm not sure about Allen's roof arrangement either - I make up a solid brass roof and then drill through for bolts and fasten the clerestory section on top.  That probably applies to hinges as well, depending on how you decide to do them.

 

You can see how I do clerestories here.

[rowanj]

Thanks for all the helpful posts. 

I don't know if any gas-lit coaches of this type survived into BR days, nor do I know if coaches of Dia 76 got electric lighting, so more research is needed. Unless I get something definitive, this one will be electrically lit in LNER Brown with a BR number, E xxx E.

I should have fitted the droplights before assembling the coach - silly me. Actually , fitting the droplights isn't a problem, but filing down the door furniture may be more of an issue. I'll know better next time.

The roof components are illustrated. A couple of issues are troubling the little grey cells-I'm currently watching Poirot. There are 6 etches which I presume fit from below the main roof to give it shape and strength. However, they are too wide for the gap in the roof, and there is no etched slots to suggest where they go- not that I suppose that is critical, as long s they are equally spaced. I considered filing them , but decided a slot at the point they meet the gap in the roof etch would be more secure. I hope the photo gives the idea.

The side of the clerestory roof has tabs which slot into the main roof. there is an etch which runs the length of the side where it meets the clerestory roof. I'm not sure whether this should be detached or not - it is only held by the joints which would normally be cut away. I do however, wonder whether leaving it in place would give a stronger and more accurate join when it comes to soldering the clerestory roof to the sides.

 

 

Edited May 5, 2020 by rowanj

[Headstock]

2 hours ago, rowanj said:

Thanks for all the helpful posts. 

I don't know if any gas-lit coaches of this type survived into BR days, nor do I know if coaches of Dia 76 got electric lighting, so more research is needed. Unless I get something definitive, this one will be electrically lit in LNER Brown with a BR number, E xxx E.

I should have fitted the droplights before assembling the coach - silly me. Actually , fitting the droplights isn't a problem, but filing down the door furniture may be more of an issue. I'll know better next time.

The roof components are illustrated. A couple of issues are troubling the little grey cells-I'm currently watching Poirot. There are 6 etches which I presume fit from below the main roof to give it shape and strength. However, they are too wide for the gap in the roof, and there is no etched slots to suggest where they go- not that I suppose that is critical, as long s they are equally spaced. I considered filing them , but decided a slot at the point they meet the gap in the roof etch would be more secure. I hope the photo gives the idea.

The side of the clerestory roof has tabs which slot into the main roof. there is an etch which runs the length of the side where it meets the clerestory roof. I'm not sure whether this should be detached or not - it is only held by the joints which would normally be cut away. I do however, wonder whether leaving it in place would give a stronger and more accurate join when it comes to soldering the clerestory roof to the sides.

 

 

 

Evening John,

 

you should have ends for the clerestory with beading / panels on them.

 

The GWR clerestories from the same manufacturer seem to go together in the way you surmise, It may be worth checking you have the right parts.

 

See this build.

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/76060-worsley-works-gwr-4mm-range/

 

 

Edited May 5, 2020 by Headstock
add info.

[rowanj]

18 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Evening John,

 

you should have ends for the clerestory with beading / panels on them.

 

The GWR clerestories from the same manufacturer seem to go together in the way you surmise, It may be worth checking you have the right parts.

 

See this build.

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/76060-worsley-works-gwr-4mm-range/

 

 

Yes, Andrew..There are 3 etches which are clerestory  ends, which sit as tab and slot at each end of the roof. Not sure what the 3rd one is for..either a spare or to be used as a strengthener?

Thanks for the link.

John