Building kits for Tyneside in the BR era. J24 and PDK D49/2

[rowanj]

Also in the spares box was an old round cam Mashima motor, probably salvaged from an early DJH gearbox, and a motor mount of Comet or Markits origin, as well as a supply of 40/1 worm and gears. I don't always have tremendous success getting these things to mesh, and stay meshed, but thought I'd give it a try. So far so good, so I fitted the motor into the chassis, and it all worked- up to a point. The motor went into the body OK- not too fat- but when I fitted the driving wheels, they touched the motor sides. causing them to bind and also causing a certain short where the insulated rim touched the metal motor body. So-sacrilege-I filed down the offending part of the motor, stuck over some black tape as insurance- and all seemed well.

More to follow

 

[rowanj]

So, got the wheels fitted, and shaved a bit from the front of the whitemetal chassis to get the loco body sitting reasonably. I know some folk hate them, and if they are out of true, are impossible to fix. they also are all designed for an X04 type motor. But if they sit "flat" once driving wheels are fitted - I always fit axle bushes- other than lack of detail, I'm not sure what the issue is. The weight, for a start, is in all the right place. Anyway...

The next issue was to fit the coupling rods. I couldn't find the ones which came with the kit, so dug out a set from a Comet chassis. They were close, but no cigar, so I cut them to size, and joined up the parts, hidden by a laminate overlay. They don't look perfect, but I now have a working chassis,

The only thing I've "bought" for the project is a Comet A3/4 Cylinder set. The slidebars for this are on the motion etch, but I had a few sets from PDK, who sell them as spares with the single crosshead. This is where I went wrong in the earlier attempt, so trepidation time.

[rowanj]

Fitting the cylinder etch to the chassis caused the loco nose to rise to dizzy heights and some head-scratching. I filed a couple of slots in the whitemetal and this reduced thing a bit, but not enough, and I was getting perilously close to losing the integrity of the front end of the chassis block. So I filed back  the metal between the cylinder fronts and back to get the required depth. Doing this caused the etched lines to break, so I was left with the etch in 3 pieces. However, from disaster and adversity came success, as the front and rear portions could now be slotted into the chassis at the required height. Once glued in place, and the cylinder covers fitted , no-one but me (or anyone reading this) will know or care about the bodge.

The PDK parts aren't an exact fit to the Comet ones, but are easily made to work through filing and opening up the hole where the crosshead enters the cylinder block.

So this is where I am up to. The photos show what I have tried to describe, as well as cruelly illustrating damage to the loco body while in storage. Isn't this hobby fun?

Edited June 5, 2020 by rowanj

[micklner]

1 hour ago, John Tomlinson said:

A bit off topic, but I don't think I've bought anything on ebay since the lockdown started. Old kits especially seem to have gone for bonkers prices - an unbuilt Millholme H&B J28 was up over £400 when I delisted it from my "watch" list, who knows what it actually went for. Ditto RTR, not much point buying pre-owned if a new one is similar in price!

 

I've had a Crownline A1/1 in my cupboard for a few years now. It has a resin boiler & firebox that most definitely isn't the shape of anything that came out of Doncaster, and would make the loco look like a hump-backed whale if used as is. I think the cab proportions are a bit off as well. I'd like to have a go at it one day, but fear that when I start it will be one of those kits that ends up taking forever with all the faffing about to make it right.

 

John.

£430 the last time I looked .

 

I built the PDK version of the A1/1 which is I believe the same or very similar. Horrid thing , zero sideplay when the chassis was built ,and as you said a naff boiler and poor detail. Luckily the Graeme King Hornby conversions arrived and it was sold on , asap !!

Edited June 5, 2020 by micklner

[micklner]

22 minutes ago, rowanj said:

Fitting the cylinder etch to the chassis caused the loco nose to rise to dizzy heights and some head-scratching. I filed a couple of slots in the whitemetal and this reduced thing a bit, but not enough, and I was getting perilously close to losing the integrity of the front end of the chassis block. So I filed back  the metal between the cylinder fronts and back to get the required depth. Doing this caused the etched lines to break, so I was left with the etch in 3 pieces. However, from disaster and adversity came success, as the front and rear portions could now be slotted into the chassis at the required height. Once glued in place, and the cylinder covers fitted , no-one but me (or anyone reading this) will know or care about the bodge.

The PDK parts aren't an exact fit to the Comet ones, but are easily made to work through filing and opening up the hole where the crosshead enters the cylinder block.

So this is where I am up to. The photos show what I have tried to describe, as well as cruelly illustrating damage to the loco body while in storage. Isn't this hobby fun?

A bit confusing ?

Are you doing a new chassis for Great Northern ? I presume yes ?

Have you Graeme if he has any valve gear etches left ? Or buy a etch from PDK nowhere as good a set as Graemes, but a lot easier I think than what you are trying to do, as the A3 valve gear is totally different from a A1/1 version.

[rowanj]

1 hour ago, micklner said:

A bit confusing ?

Are you doing a new chassis for Great Northern ? I presume yes ?

Have you Graeme if he has any valve gear etches left ? Or buy a etch from PDK nowhere as good a set as Graemes, but a lot easier I think than what you are trying to do, as the A3 valve gear is totally different from a A1/1 version.

Hi Mick

I'm using the whitemetal chassis casting from a Wills A3, cylinder block from Comet, cylinder guides and crossheads from PDK, and misc con rods, etc from various etches including an Alan Gibson A1/1. I THINK I have all the parts I need, though several bits of the valve gear need modifying to represent the A1/1. Sorry if I hadn't made that clear..too much waffle earlier.

John

[rowanj]

3 hours ago, John Tomlinson said:

 

 

I've had a Crownline A1/1 in my cupboard for a few years now. It has a resin boiler & firebox that most definitely isn't the shape of anything that came out of Doncaster, and would make the loco look like a hump-backed whale if used as is. I think the cab proportions are a bit off as well. I'd like to have a go at it one day, but fear that when I start it will be one of those kits that ends up taking forever with all the faffing about to make it right.

 

John.

John

The Crownline A1/1 gets a pretty poor press. I don't mind resin boilers in principle, but they need to the right shape. I seem to recall Tony Wright substituting a cast version from somewhere.

I have a Roche drawing of the A1/1, with all the caveats that apply to it, mainly to check general dimensions. If that is the drawing of a 107 boiler, then I'm a Dutchman. The dome is far too far forward and the bands are in a very odd place. I wonder if Crownline used it when designing the kit--it's quite an age.

[micklner]

1 hour ago, rowanj said:

Hi Mick

I'm using the whitemetal chassis casting from a Wills A3, cylinder block from Comet, cylinder guides and crossheads from PDK, and misc con rods, etc from various etches including an Alan Gibson A1/1. I THINK I have all the parts I need, though several bits of the valve gear need modifying to represent the A1/1. Sorry if I hadn't made that clear..too much waffle earlier.

John

Makes sense now !! Personally I would still use a Hornby A3 , Graemes Valve gear etc, as said before.

 

I have very old  Nucast whitemetal chassis's, still going strong on a  J21, J27 and a Q6. Never had a problem with them .  No idea re Wills quality etc.

 

I presume you never bought the A1/1 cylinders and other resin bits from Graeme ?.

 

My Hornby based , Graeme King  resin and etched part Great Northern's in case you havent seen them.

 

[rowanj]

Lovely models, Mick - thanks for showing them.

 

Valve gear fitted to one side, and tender dug out for photographic purposes. I think the odds on getting this to work have improved, but still no better than 50/50.

[manna]

G'Day Folks

 

I often find, if you can't fix something, put it to one side and just think about it, you'll come up with the solutions......eventually, might take a few years. 

 

 

manna

[Clive Mortimore]

On 19/05/2020 at 13:32, rowanj said:

I am gratified by the last few posts, having received a couple of messages the other day suggesting that, if this is the best I can do, I should pack it in and stick to RTR.. I'm painfully aware of my limitations, but seriously considered reverting to lurker status. Andrew and Jonathan's posts have restored my faith, if not my bruised confidence.

Hi John

 

I have been AWOL from this thread for a while. You are in the club of model makers where making and enjoying doing so are the important things.

 

I enjoy your layout thread and this one. Keep up the good work, it is a fun hobby and the miserable git who said stick to RTR should remember that.

[rowanj]

Here is the current state of play re 60113. The valve gear is now working, after a bit of a fight. The trailing bogie is fixed as per the Hornby method, with flangeless wheels. The leading bogie came from a Bachmann A2, and I used the Comet part, as also used by most modern Hornby A3/4s etc as the fixing point. The cylinder block is from a Comet A3/4 kit, but I adapted it- the break can be seen- to represent the bulkier and higher sides of 113  compared to the original.

Once pick-ups are fitted and I'm satisfied that it will navigate my less than stellar trackwork, I'll start to tackle the body,

Edited June 11, 2020 by rowanj

[mikemeg]

On 07/06/2020 at 00:23, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi John

 

I have been AWOL from this thread for a while. You are in the club of model makers where making and enjoying doing so are the important things.

 

I enjoy your layout thread and this one. Keep up the good work, it is a fun hobby and the miserable git who said stick to RTR should remember that.

 

Clive,

 

Absolutely. 

 

John's thread, here, has been/is an inspiration for a lot of model makers. What comes across, loud and clear, is the enthusiasm, the innovative desire to solve the problems, the enjoyment of the builds and the satisfaction of seeing them run. For anyone doing this, there isn't much more to be derived, so keep em coming, John.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

[rowanj]

I said this on an earlier post on the Worsley Works Ex_NER Clerestory.

 

One thing not supplied are the guards dockets, so I need to try to source either an etched or whitemetal version of those. 

 

I had a nice exchange of e.mails with Allen at Worsley today, and he corrected me - there is  an etch in the kit, which I didn't recognise, so I am happy to put the record straight.

 

John

Edited June 11, 2020 by rowanj

[rowanj]

The chassis from the scrap/spares box in all it's g(l)ory. Perversely, it runs really well, at least for now.

 

I also started the much needed work on the body. Filler around the footplate curve where it joins the cab, and the boiler converted to a dia. 107 ( I think the dome was in a slightly more forward position, but I'll leave that well alone.

Reversing lever on the RH side, ashpan lever on the LH, and, also on that side, a rod from the cab, through the footplate - purpose unknown to me- something to do with the lubricators?

 

The cab numbers also grated, so they too will be replaced.

[rowanj]

Still rough around the edges, but getting there. Better than just sitting in a drawer, anyway.

[rowanj]

I wonder how many of these have been built over the years. This is an original Wills A4 perched on a Comet chassis I "won" it a few years ago for peanuts and it has lain in the pile since then. To be honest, without Lockdown, it would probably still be there, but now Gt, Northern is done, I thought I'd tackle it. It is what it is. , a kit of its' time, with castings as rough as the roads, but it should be possible to turn it into the definitive "layout loco"- probably Kingfisher.

I also found an unbuilt Comet D120 4-wheel brake, which I think will be built alongside the D&S ex-NER kit. The Comet kit only has the sides and ends- the rest must be sourced. Though Comet list the required parts, I was surprised to see they include their LMS Stove underframe rather than the LNER version. So far, I haven't tracked down a build of this kit, but I assume it has been around for years so possibly someone an point me to a link?

[Headstock]

5 hours ago, rowanj said:

I wonder how many of these have been built over the years. This is an original Wills A4 perched on a Comet chassis I "won" it a few years ago for peanuts and it has lain in the pile since then. To be honest, without Lockdown, it would probably still be there, but now Gt, Northern is done, I thought I'd tackle it. It is what it is. , a kit of its' time, with castings as rough as the roads, but it should be possible to turn it into the definitive "layout loco"- probably Kingfisher.

I also found an unbuilt Comet D120 4-wheel brake, which I think will be built alongside the D&S ex-NER kit. The Comet kit only has the sides and ends- the rest must be sourced. Though Comet list the required parts, I was surprised to see they include their LMS Stove underframe rather than the LNER version. So far, I haven't tracked down a build of this kit, but I assume it has been around for years so possibly someone an point me to a link?

 

 

Afternoon John,

 

as a fully paid up member of the NER XB BZ liberation front, I have to say those four, or is it two wheel? bird boxes should be sent back to the pet shop.

 

The dia 120 vans are a pig to do and not nearly as important as the position they have been elevated to by railway modelers. There has never been an accurate kit, due to there being three different but confusingly similar diagrams, of theoretically the same type of van. The available kits tend to borrow features from all three! The original Stratford vans, had a very particular arrangement of battery boxes and rain strip, this is hardly ever modeled. The two latter follow up diagrams were built on reclaimed underframes and were shorter with wooden headstocks. Given the amount of attention they get from modelers, it always surprises that nobody notices how different the batches of the real vans were from one another. 

 

There wasn't that many dia 120's built in comparison to the hundreds of ex NER BZ's. These ex NER vans were spread far and wide across the country, they were virtually a standard type serving many different types of traffic, yet get ignored.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Headstock
clarify a point.

[jwealleans]

Could you expand on the rainstrip arrangement, Andrew?   All the pictures I have of D120, 176 or 177 show the same general layout, but they're all BR era.   The few LNER area ones I have aren't clear enough to work from.

 

I am aware that the preserved D120 has a different arrangement but given that the livery it's been finished in is not authentic, I'm hesitant to base anything on that.

[Headstock]

1 hour ago, jwealleans said:

Could you expand on the rainstrip arrangement, Andrew?   All the pictures I have of D120, 176 or 177 show the same general layout, but they're all BR era.   The few LNER area ones I have aren't clear enough to work from.

 

I am aware that the preserved D120 has a different arrangement but given that the livery it's been finished in is not authentic, I'm hesitant to base anything on that.

 

Good morning Jonathan,

 

some years ago, I was sent a fully illustrated, unpublished, article by Steve Banks, that covered the myriad of variations in the different batches of these vans. Unfortunately it was lost in a hard drive failure. Not so bad for me personally, (everything else was backed up) as they are a type that hardly come on to the radar, in my time period and modeling area This is despite a batch specifically being designed and built for the area before the War. They seem to have been shunted off into oblivion. perhaps the Luftwaffe got them, or the GC men just thought of them as being a bit silly. 

 

I'm aware of the inaccuracies with the preserved example, that would seem entirely typical of these vans. The latest model to be released, is one of the worst, no doubt they will be flying off the shelves. I have been very fortunate in not having a need for this particular modelers pet, but I'm seeking a replacement copy of the Banks article as I type, at least then I will have the full gen.

[65179]

1 hour ago, Headstock said:

 

 Not so bad for me personally, (everything else was backed up) as they are a type that hardly come on to the radar, in my time period and modeling area This is despite a batch specifically being designed and built for the area before the War. They seem to have been shunted off into oblivion. perhaps the Luftwaffe got them, or the GC men just thought of them as being a bit silly. 

 

I think you may be being a little LE-centric in your assessment of use of these vans on the GC Andrew ;-)

 

I have a couple of views of Liverpool-Harwich/Hull trains with these vans at the front in the early 1950s.

 

Simon

[Headstock]

6 hours ago, 65179 said:

 

I think you may be being a little LE-centric in your assessment of use of these vans on the GC Andrew ;-)

 

I have a couple of views of Liverpool-Harwich/Hull trains with these vans at the front in the early 1950s.

 

Simon

 

You are correct, I should have specified LE, and thank goodness for that. They can't of lasted that long on the Harwich services, after 4 wheel vans were derated, due to them looking silly. I count myself lucky not to have them about, at least not in daylight, they look better at night. I can't think of anything worse than spending the time and effort building the things, only for some little oink to shout 'Pigeon van' as the little monstrosity wobbles past, how embarrassing. I would be tempted to shout back,'it's a flippin hedgehog van, I like hedgehogs, you flippin git, OK!', or words to that effect. Better to be proud of my ex NER BZ, doing cool things with six wheels. There's a T shirt idea. I could have Pigeon vans are c,,p, but I wouldn't want Pigeon on my T shirt. Graceful in the air, ugly on the ground, and worse on rails.

 

On re reading my original post, I made no assessment of the use of the vans on the GC in general, only with regard to my own modeling period and area.

Edited June 21, 2020 by Headstock
remove duplicate word. add comment.

[Bucoops]

50 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

You are correct, I should have specified LE, and thank goodness for that. They can't of lasted that long on the Harwich services, after 4 wheel vans were derated, due to them looking silly. I count myself lucky not to have them about, at least not in daylight, they look better at night. I can't think of anything worse than spending the time and effort building the things, only for some little oink to shout 'Pigeon van' as the little monstrosity wobbles past, how embarrassing. I would be tempted to shout back,'it's a flippin hedgehog van, I like hedgehogs, you flippin git, OK!', or words to that effect. Better to be proud of my ex NER BZ, doing cool things with six wheels. There's a T shirt idea. I could have Pigeon vans are c,,p, but I wouldn't want Pigeon on my T shirt. Graceful in the air, ugly on the ground, and worse on rails.

 

Do you feel better now?

 

I have a couple of D120s to build - looks like they've taken a dive down the list to near the bottom. Is there a source for the NER ones?

[Headstock]

2 hours ago, Bucoops said:

 

Do you feel better now?

 

I have a couple of D120s to build - looks like they've taken a dive down the list to near the bottom. Is there a source for the NER ones?

 

Good evening B,

no source exist anymore for the NER BZ's, you can blame railway modelers for obsessing over the wrong vans.

 

Do I feel better? I feel great, the king is in the all together now. The dia 210's and their younger brothers, have been elevated in importance by modelers way beyond the reality of their working lives. Why? Like Jack the Ripper, a gimmicky nickname it would seem. Even that is a sham, I don't think one has ever been photographed within one hundred feet of a smelly Pigeon.

Do I feel better? I'm not so impressed that manufactures and modelers have failed to get to grips with an accurate versions of them over the last forty years. D&S have failed, so have Chivers, Comet gave up on a full kit and now Isinglass have dropped the ball.

 

They would seem to be simultaneously, the most overhyped and poorest understood vans in the history of railways and railway modeling.

 

P.S. I would like them much better, if they were genuine Hedgehog vans, built for transporting Hedgehogs across busy main roads.
 

Edited June 21, 2020 by Headstock
add Comet and missing word

[Headstock]

 

To be fair to Jack the Ripper, his nickname was actually surprisingly accurate.