Building kits for Tyneside in the BR era. J24 and PDK D49/2

[Michael Edge]

It doesn't need much strength, just grip the outer bit with some pliers (preferably smooth jawed flat ones - along the line), hold the rest in your fingers and waggle it until it weakens. It's the same technique as cracking plastikard or sheet metal after "skrawking" the cut line.

The odd wheelbase is the result of it being a long boiler loco, the trailing axle is in front of the firebox and the driving axle has to be far enough back from the cylinders.

[Daddyman]

A couple of things to be aware of with these locos: 

 

1. Late-life locos didn't seem to have visible rivets all over the tanks, so there's probably no need to push them all out. 

2. If I remember, the instructions suggest that the tank tops curve up to meet the boiler; they don't - their tops are flat: 

 

I replaced the supplied boiler with tube - might be an idea if you're worried about rolling it. 

 

Edited February 24, 2021 by Daddyman

[rowanj]

Hi David- good to hear from you.

27 minutes ago, Daddyman said:

A couple of things to be aware of with these locos: 

 

1. Late-life locos didn't seem to have visible rivets all over the tanks, so there's probably no need to push them all out. 

2. If I remember, the instructions suggest that the tank tops curve up to meet the boiler; they don't - their tops are flat: 

 

I replaced the supplied boiler with tube - might be an idea if you're worried about rolling it. 

 

Hi David - good to hear from you.

Hopefully, I'll soon be able to pop down to the Stephenson Museum to see the rivets- and other details- for myself. I'll have a "crack" at the remaining spacers tonight. I'll also fit the "Knife edge" and the ashpan etches, assuming I can be sure where they fit.

Can you (or Mike) suggest the correct OD for the boiler if I go down that route? I know the suggestion in the instructions is to roll the etch round a 10mm rod.

John

 

[Daddyman]

49 minutes ago, rowanj said:

Hi David- good to hear from you.

Hi David - good to hear from you.

Hopefully, I'll soon be able to pop down to the Stephenson Museum to see the rivets- and other details- for myself. I'll have a "crack" at the remaining spacers tonight. I'll also fit the "Knife edge" and the ashpan etches, assuming I can be sure where they fit.

Can you (or Mike) suggest the correct OD for the boiler if I go down that route? I know the suggestion in the instructions is to roll the etch round a 10mm rod.

John

 

Hang on, let me just walk over to the shelf of shame....

 

... Right, 18mm tube. 

[Michael Edge]

I agree about the top of the tank to the boiler cladding on No.41 - but that's the only one I have a photo of which shows it (and it was like that before preservation). Every other loco photograph I have is from  too low an angle to see - if anyone knows of a view of any other (than 41) please let me know, I have a 7mm test etch to build at some time.

The boiler diameter (over cladding) in 4mm scale is 17.8mm - you can measure this from the drawing supplied with the kit.

[Michael Edge]

18mm is close enough!

 

[Daddyman]

3 minutes ago, Michael Edge said:

I agree about the top of the tank to the boiler cladding on No.41 - but that's the only one I have a photo of which shows it (and it was like that before preservation). Every other loco photograph I have is from  too low an angle to see - if anyone knows of a view of any other (than 41) please let me know, I have a 7mm test etch to build at some time.

The boiler diameter (over cladding) in 4mm scale is 17.8mm - you can measure this from the drawing supplied with the kit.

The question seems to me the wrong way round, Mike: what evidence is there that any loco had the tank tops anything but flat? I think it's only the dodgy RM drawing that suggests this, isn't it? I think some years ago I shared a B&W photo with you that I found on the internet looking out of the front spectacles along the tank tops - this again shows the flat tank tops; however, it could of course be a photo of No.41....     

 

The tube on mine is actually 17.87 - perhaps it was an imperial tube. 

[Michael Edge]

The shape of the front plate suggests this, it was quite common practice and earlier Kitson long boiler locos were definitely like this. I think that photo is of 41, no evidence it's any other and there are far more photos of that one than the rest of the Consett locos. However, I don't really know and the kit can be built either way. I will put a note about this in the instructions.

[Daddyman]

Interesting, Mike. It's perhaps not as clear-cut as I've assumed. It's certainly easier to build the tank tops flat... 

 

Incidentally, do you see the possibility of ever making a "finishing kit" for this loco - with later (higher) sandboxes, sandbox lids, tank fillers, possibly even injectors, etc? 

[Michael Edge]

Not particularly, although it might change when I build another one (sometime this year).

[Jol Wilkinson]

3 hours ago, Daddyman said:

Interesting, Mike. It's perhaps not as clear-cut as I've assumed. It's certainly easier to build the tank tops flat... 

 

Incidentally, do you see the possibility of ever making a "finishing kit" for this loco - with later (higher) sandboxes, sandbox lids, tank fillers, possibly even injectors, etc? 

It seems logical that the tank tops were flat. What would be the benefit of making them curved and incurring the cost of producing a radiused section that would probably be more difficult to assemble and seal?

[Daddyman]

40 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

What would be the benefit of making them curved and incurring the cost of producing a radiused section that would probably be more difficult to assemble and seal?

Elegance? It was still an important consideration when these locos were built. 

 

Function is another reason: apologies for showing this again Jol: 

 

[Michael Edge]

2 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

It seems logical that the tank tops were flat. What would be the benefit of making them curved and incurring the cost of producing a radiused section that would probably be more difficult to assemble and seal?

The tank tops are flat, it could be the boiler cladding turned on to that tank top or a separate plate to cover the join. The former was normal Midland practice, the latter GW for example.

[Daddyman]

Just now, Michael Edge said:

it could be the boiler cladding turned on to that tank top 

As with the 439 above. 

[Jol Wilkinson]

3 hours ago, Daddyman said:

Elegance? It was still an important consideration when these locos were built. 

 

Function is another reason: apologies for showing this again Jol: 

 

 

Which is probably flat tank tops with an overall "cover" for the boiler and tanks. Was there any covering for the cladding on the boiler lower down, to hold the insulation in place? And what was the function of that cover? Most railway engineers didn't do that so it is difficult to see the reason for it, especially on a rather ordinary and not very elegant tank locomotive.

 

Elegance is something that the designers/engineers usually achieved as a by product of producing a functional locomotive and what we consider elegant is also very subjective. Of course, enthusiasts have favourite railways and considered their locomotives and coaching stock elegant, compared to others.

[rowanj]

This is what I want the kit to end up looking like. We shall see.,,,

[Michael Edge]

1 hour ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

 

Which is probably flat tank tops with an overall "cover" for the boiler and tanks. Was there any covering for the cladding on the boiler lower down, to hold the insulation in place? And what was the function of that cover? Most railway engineers didn't do that so it is difficult to see the reason for it, especially on a rather ordinary and not very elegant tank locomotive.

 

Elegance is something that the designers/engineers usually achieved as a by product of producing a functional locomotive and what we consider elegant is also very subjective. Of course, enthusiasts have favourite railways and considered their locomotives and coaching stock elegant, compared to others.

Same on most LBSC tank locos but in this case I think the top plate also served as a tank strap (to stop the tanks leaning outwards.  I don't know what the boiler insulation looked like between the tanks or below.

 

1 hour ago, rowanj said:

This is what I want the kit to end up looking like. We shall see.,,,

If you're building 41 fit the tanks flat up to the boiler, definitely correct for this one - but you should fit taller sandboxes as well....

 

[rowanj]

I like the way Mike has set out the instructions with the suggested pattern of what to do and in what order. i have now completed Part 1 , which is the basic chassis, and it was one of the best ad easiest I have built.

The next stage is the footplate, which proves to be a perfect fit to the chassis.  I am up to Part 12, the angle end brackets. These are 4 nicely etched rivetted pieces,  but where do they go? I thought at the end of the valance, but I cant see them on photos of the preserved No 5/41.

Edit - found them. They run horizontally at each end, next to the buffer beam. 

Edited February 26, 2021 by rowanj

[Asterix2012]

On 25/02/2021 at 09:07, Michael Edge said:

The shape of the front plate suggests this, it was quite common practice and earlier Kitson long boiler locos were definitely like this. I think that photo is of 41, no evidence it's any other and there are far more photos of that one than the rest of the Consett locos. However, I don't really know and the kit can be built either way. I will put a note about this in the instructions.

Do you think it might have had a shaped plate on top of the tanks matching the Shape of the  front plate which might have been removed at some point it’s long life?

[Michael Edge]

5 hours ago, rowanj said:

I like the way Mike has set out the instructions with the suggested pattern of what to do and in what order. i have now completed Part 1 , which is the basic chassis, and it was one of the best ad easiest I have built.

The next stage is the footplate, which proves to be a perfect fit to the chassis.  I am up to Part 12, the angle end brackets. These are 4 nicely etched rivetted pieces,  but where do they go? I thought at the end of the valance, but I cant see them on photos of the preserved No 5/41.

Edit - found them. They run horizontally at each end, next to the buffer beam. 

Everything is there on the drawing somewhere and it's printed the same size as the parts - that's because it was created from the CAD drawing used to make the etch.

1 hour ago, Asterix2012 said:

Do you think it might have had a shaped plate on top of the tanks matching the Shape of the  front plate which might have been removed at some point it’s long life?

Possibly but I would like to see some photographic evidence one way or the other.

[ArthurK]

I wish that I had been able to photograph these locos. I used to see them whilst cycling to  and from school in the 1940s. Unfortunately I didn't possess a camera in those far off days. 

 

ArthurK

 

 

[Daddyman]

When you come to the cab, John, I seem to remember there's something to be aware of (Mike may be able to confirm): if I remember correctly, the cab front sits on top of the floor, whereas the cab rear will sit on the footplate, so needs to be soldered to the rear edge of the cab floor, not on top of it. It might be obvious, but I seem to remember it caused me some puzzling as the instructions simply say to fit both parts to the floor. 

[Michael Edge]

I thought when I wrote the instructions that it was obvious that the cab floor locates the back but maybe not...

This kit is a bit unusual in not being a modular design but it originated in a commission to build one model and as such was designed with more of a view to my own construction.

[Michael Edge]

It does show in the drawing if you look closely.

[rowanj]

The last couple of posts are fortuitous, as this is the stage I have reached. I seem to have run out of 12BA nuts and bolts, which are the recommended size for fitting body and chassis together. I also need buffers, but have a spare set of RSH from a High Level kit.

Comparing pictures of the preserved loco between withdrawal as NCB 41in 1968 and restoration as No5, it is clear that quite a few changes were made - different buffers and stocks, safety valve covers, and removal of steps are the obvious ones. 

I dont want to build the loco as preserved, and photos of locos working in the 50's and 60's are thin on the ground to say the least. I really do wonder if, detail wise, any 2 of these engines were the same by the end of their lives.