Building kits for Tyneside in the BR era. J24 and PDK D49/2

[46256]

John your kind gift of the Graeme King V2 taking shape. I've just finished fitting pick ups and the pony trucks .it has been happily running around my layout for the past 40 minutes, bringing a bit of Eastern glamour to my Midland Brummie metals ...more soon cheers Brian Edited June 5, 2018 by 46256

[rowanj]

This kit must be almost 50 years old - an original Wills Finecast obtained very reasonably from Ebay. It came with the whitemetal chassis, but in the event, I used a Comet version. Still a few things to do, including finishing the lining (Modelmasters),nameplates, front coupling, coal, crew and lamps,.Other tan additional pipework, ashpan lever, streamline dome and footplate extension from he spares box, the kit is as/was supplied.

 

This was supposed to be a quick job before a holiday, but issues with the chassis, and problems fitting Gibson scale wheels meant that the quick job took 3 months. The Tetrach was a Tyneside loco, but I have a good colour photo from 1961 of her on Top Shed, and looking clean(ish). Doubtless this was a good "cop" for the spotters at Kings X..

 

My biggest issue was trying to get scale Gibson's on the Finecast chassis, and indeed on the Comet one. There was virtually no space between the flanges, and I couldn't fit brakes without shorting. No doubt part of that was my lack of ability. However a combination of a gift of 26mm Romfords from my friend, Sir William, and Roxey plastic brakes has given me a (bodged) solution. Perhaps the SEF chassis would have been a better solution, but the Comet version was already to hand.

 

Other than for haulage capacity, there is no good reason to build this kit apart from the pleasure of doing so. Isn't this a good enough reason ? As a starter kit, it is straightforward enough and can be obtained cheaply enough to provide a good learning curve for kit-building.

.

Now for the D20

[rowanj]

I started to look through the DJH D20 box today. As usual, I'll start with the chassis, but the instructions are hopeless. There are references to using a modern DJH motor/gearbox, and also a DS10, all interwoven in the instructions. Fair enough, but the kit includes 2 castings which I assume represent the frames above the bogie, but no indication of how to fit them. In fact, other than a reference to 2 x Part 51, described as Keeper Plates, there is nothing to help - parts 51 are conspicuous by their absence on the illustrated drawings.

 

Edit - they are the plates to retain the bogie wheels..

 

Presumably the bogie parts could/should be fixed below the footplate. This may be easier said than done. It's pretty thick brass, and soldering it to whitemetal will be no joke. I suppose it could be epoxied into place, but would this give a strong enough bond? 

 

I've photographed the parts in question. The piece between the bogie sideframes seems to be the fixing plate for the open-frame motor, but the piece between the main chassis frames is a mystery.

 

I cant find a build of this kit anywhere. It's possible I'm just being thick, but this kit, so far, is re-enforcing why some folk avoid kit-building. surely it would not be beyond DJH to produce amended and accurate instructions. Anyone who knows better, pls let me know.

Edited July 17, 2018 by rowanj

[Jol Wilkinson]

Perhaps it is just a piece of waste etch. If it has no obvious use, then just ignore it.

[rowanj]

Perhaps it is just a piece of waste etch. If it has no obvious use, then just ignore it.

I did wonder if that was the case, Jol, but it's a pretty substantial piece of metal....

[jrg1]

I did wonder if that was the case, Jol, but it's a pretty substantial piece of metal....

I have an old DJH kit, and the etches are laid out crudelyI had lots of waste preparing the components

[Jol Wilkinson]

I did wonder if that was the case, Jol, but it's a pretty substantial piece of metal....

 

 

I have an old DJH kit, and the etches are laid out crudelyI had lots of waste preparing the components

 

John,

 

as jrg1 points out, old kits often didn't have economically laid out etches. Hand drawn, it was time consuming to fill in any "spare" areas with useful odds and ends such as axle spacing washers. That is quite easy with copy and paste on CAD artwork, which is why later etch designs are much less "wasteful".

 

Jol

[rowanj]

Jol and jrg1 - thanks for the comments.

 

I agree that this may a piece of scrap - we will see. However I can't pretend to be impressed so far with the kit or its' instructions. It may be an old design, but was bought new this year from DJH for £120 when they did a new run - if I'd got the wheels and motor from them it would have been over £200. Surely an updated set of instructions wouldn't have gone amiss?

 

I know there is an issue with the tender, and Dave Alexander produces a better version. I'll see him at RailexNE in a couple of weeks, but am hesitating about going ahead with a purchase until I get a better idea of how the body and chassis build. The chassis needs every pre-drilled whole broached- fair enough- and the screw holes countersunk to ensure wheel rims stay clear. There are no pre- drilled holes for brake blocks .The boiler is incorrect for the superheated version and the smokebox must be extended

 

The footplate is only suitable for the 10 "Raven Framed" locos, though I suppose it could be filed to reflect the others. Luckily., 63936 seems to fit the bill for my layout - a Tweedmouth/Alnmouth loco at the end of its' life in 1957.

 

So far, so not so good. If ArthurK's version is available, it will be a much better bet. I may contact him re a tender.

Edited July 18, 2018 by rowanj

[mikemeg]

John,

 

Isn't that 62396 (not 63936, which was an O2 2-8-0)? I believe this loco was one of the only D20's (may have been the only one) to have carried the later BR emblem on its tender.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited July 18, 2018 by mikemeg

[John Tomlinson]

Jol and jrg1 - thanks for the comments.

 

I agree that this may a piece of scrap - we will see. However I can't pretend to be impressed so far with the kit or its' instructions. It may be an old design, but was bought new this year from DJH for £120 when they did a new run - if I'd got the wheels and motor from them it would have been over £200. Surely an updated set of instructions wouldn't have gone amiss?

 

I know there is an issue with the tender, and Dave Alexander produces a better version. I'll see him at RailexNE in a couple of weeks, but am hesitating about going ahead with a purchase until I get a better idea of how the body and chassis build. The chassis needs every pre-drilled whole broached- fair enough- and the screw holes countersunk to ensure wheel rims stay clear. There are no pre- drilled holes for brake blocks .The boiler is incorrect for the superheated version and the smokebox must be extended

 

The footplate is only suitable for the 10 "Raven Framed" locos, though I suppose it could be filed to reflect the others. Luckily., 63936 seems to fit the bill for my layout - a Tweedmouth/Alnmouth loco at the end of its' life in 1957.

 

So far, so not so good. If ArthurK's version is available, it will be a much better bet. I may contact him re a tender.

 

If you bought this new quite recently, have you tried ringing DJH to see if they'll send you some instructions. 

 

Having built with some difficulty their B16 some years ago and read a number of comments by other builders, I'm not at all sure that their earlier products are all they're cracked up to be. As your experience shows, the price now, plus wheels motor and gearbox is considerable, and I'd be surprised if they sell many kits in cases where an RTR alternative to modern standards is available.

 

John.

Edited July 18, 2018 by John Tomlinson

[micknich2003]

John,

 

Isn't that 62396 (not 63936, which was an O2 2-8-0)? I believe this loco was one of the only D20's (may have been the only one) to have carried the later BR emblem on its tender.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

Here's the engine at Bridlington, 1957. Photo The late Mike Like, my copyright.

 

[mikemeg]

Here's the engine at Bridlington, 1957. Photo The late Mike Like, my copyright.

D20 Bridlington Shed yard c1957.jpg

 

Interesting that this loco, which was one of the last survivors, had so many original North Eastern features - NER tapered buffers, NER smokebox door, etc.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[rowanj]

Here's the engine at Bridlington, 1957. Photo The late Mike Like, my copyright.

D20 Bridlington Shed yard c1957.jpg

 

Thanks Mike and Mick. That's a useful photo. The loco seems to have gone from Yorkshire back to Alnmouth for only its' last few months, presumably to replace a withdrawn loco on the Alnwick-Newcastle locals.

 

Just to be clear, there are nine pages of instruction/general guidance in the kit. It looks like they simply haven't been edited and updated properly as the kit was "modernised" .

 

And there is an A8 in my "to do" pile... I understand this kit wont go round anything less than 6th radius curves !!!

[Pebbles]

Not convinced that 62396's smokebox door is original NER, looks far to deep. Whilst 62396 has Raven frames, if my old D20 is anything to go by, its going to be fun finding a new smokebox for the DJH kit to fit the BR period.

[ArthurK]

Interesting that this loco, which was one of the last survivors, had so many original North Eastern features - NER tapered buffers, NER smokebox door, etc.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

It may have NE taper buffers but has acquired LNER draw-gear. Hence the wooden pads behind the buffers.

 

ArthurK

[rowanj]

The DJH 20 as built will only represent the 10 of 60 locos withe the front frames illustrated.I suppose some judicious filing and filling could make the alterations to match the reamaining locos, but 62396 fits my purpose. However the kit's ' smokebox only represents the locos as built, whereas all received a longer smokebox when superheated.

 

I had a whiemetal smokebox casting in the spares box of almost the same diameter as the DJH one, so cut it to length, then cut across the bottom to tease it out to match the DJH smokebox. Once soldered in place, Isopan filler was used to fill the gaps, as well as the indents on the smokebox where the chimney and  valve would have gone on the original locos.The boiler is just perched to show the effect. 

 

It's not totally clear from the photos in Yeadon, but do I assume, by !957, surviving locos would have had safety valves attached directly to the boiler rather than on the platform which was then attached?

 

I must say, having criticised the kit, that the castings are excellent, with only a minimum of flash and all, so far, a good fit.

 

 

[mikemeg]

John,

 

Here's a photo of one of the Raven framed D20's. The date of this photo is September 1938. I don't know this loco's 1946 number (but I guess someone will?) but the photo was taken at Hull Botanic Gardens shed.

 

Being a side on picture, then some of your queries re the safety valves may be answered.

 

Edit. The 1946 number was 2353; the BR number was 62353 and, as of the August 1950 allocation list, this loco was allocated to 53D - Bridlington.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited July 23, 2018 by mikemeg

[rowanj]

Thanks, Mike. It looks as though 62396 had a 59a boiler at the time of its' demise, and I think this, together with such photos as I can find of the class in the 50's, would indicate that Ross Pop valves should be located directly onto the boiler. Naturally, there are none in the kit - onlt the earlier version on a mounting plate, and an NER "trumpet".

 

The Gibson wheels were salvaged from my A3 build, and look OK, I think. They revolve freely without shorting, but clearance is pretty tight, so I'll do a bit of shaving on the footplate. Incidentally, don't do what I did and fit the cab box seats and boiler cab font before doing this, as I had to remove them ……..

 

The Gibson wheels are insulated with plastic centres. All things being equal, I prefer a live side. Scalelink/ W&T have recently begun to advertise an etch which makes their similar wheels "live". I've ordered a strip and will see how it works.

[micklner]

Gibson do a shorting strip as well.

[mikemeg]

Thanks, Mike. It looks as though 62396 had a 59a boiler at the time of its' demise, and I think this, together with such photos as I can find of the class in the 50's, would indicate that Ross Pop valves should be located directly onto the boiler. Naturally, there are none in the kit - onlt the earlier version on a mounting plate, and an NER "trumpet".

 

 

John,

 

Arthur (North Eastern kits) produces and sells various castings for the D20, including the Ross pop safety valves, truncated Westinghouse pump, mechanical lubricator, the brake cylinders between the brakes, full set of cab details and backhead castings, whistle, smoke box handle, etc.

 

The photo below, though of a Worsdell framed loco, shows some of these castings fitted. The tender, on the photo, is borrowed from the B15, though the D20 does now have a 3940 gallon tender of its own.

 

It is worth noting that by the time of your model (1957) - in fact the LNER made the change many years before that - the brake linkage was altered so that the rear pull rods were outside the wheels, as built; the front pull rods were moved inside the wheels though latterly only for the locomotive braking. Train braking was done using vacuum brakes.

 

The lower photograph taken some time after the upper one, with the change of buffers and the addition of the inspection hatch on the splasher housing, gives some idea of the profile and positioning of the vacuum pipe and the piping to the Westinghouse pump. These locos retained their Westinghouse pumps throughout their lives.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited July 26, 2018 by mikemeg

[rowanj]

Thanks, Mike. 2 lovely photos. Arthur's kit looks a different class to the DJH one. I anticipate getting a Dave Alexander tender at the weekend.

John

[mikemeg]

Thanks, Mike. 2 lovely photos. Arthur's kit looks a different class to the DJH one. I anticipate getting a Dave Alexander tender at the weekend.

John

 

John,

 

The D20,in the above photos, was built from the first set of test etches, so no instructions and there were a few castings still being developed, when this was done. These have since been added as per the photograph(s).

 

I can't speak for the DJH D20 kit but I did once buy a DJH B16/1 kit. This was far from the best kit I have ever seen (though only marginally not the worst) and I finished up chopping it into small pieces to be used for weighting. I decided, then, that I would never buy another white metal loco kit, which I haven't.

 

However good a white metal kit is, it shouldn't compare with a carefuly assembled and built etched kit. The platework thickness is the principal difference but also things such as footplates, footplate steps, beading, valances, etc. are much closer to scale thicknesses, as are details such as lamp irons, grills, etc. I guess the downside is that etched kits are more difficult and time consuming to assemble.

 

I've mentioned before but doing these test builds, where there are no instructions and where absolutely everything has to be checked and re-checked before fixing, does establish that discipline even on production versions of kits. Straight, parallel, perpendicular, no gaps, correct spacings, flush fits become the ruling guides and checking everything (often multiple times) remains the ruling approach before anything is fixed.

 

But it's all horses for courses.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited July 27, 2018 by mikemeg

[rowanj]

Mike

 

I couldn't agree more - all things being equal,(including the proficiency of the builder ! ), etched kits are superior to whitemetal, That having been said, the latest kits from SEF and Dave Alexander are vastly superior to these early DJH models.

 

For me, however, a key issue is availability. I have nothing but admiration for, for example, ArthurK's kits, but I have found it difficult to obtain them. This is not criticism - I appreciate that they are produced in small runs when sufficient orders are made. So if you want a Q7 or J21 or N10, you are more likely to be able to get a whitemetal kit from Dave than an etched one.

 

But your D20 perfectly illustrates the point you are making, particularly when compared to my DJH kit.

 

Always good to hear from you

 

John

Edited July 27, 2018 by rowanj

[mikemeg]

Mike

 

I couldn't agree more - all things being equal,(including the proficiency of the builder ! ), etched kits are superior to whitemetal, That having been said, the latest kits from SEF and Dave Alexander are vastly superior to these early DJH models.

 

For me, however, a key issue is availability. I have nothing but admiration for, for example, ArthurK's kits, but I have found it difficult to obtain them. This is not criticism - I appreciate that they are produced in small runs when sufficient orders are made. So if you want a Q7 or J21 or N10, you are more likely to be able to get a whitemetal kit from Dave than an etched one.

 

But your D20 perfectly illustrates the point you are making, particularly when compared to my DJH kit.

 

Always good to hear from you

 

John

 

John,

 

This is a hobby and, being a hobby, then different people choose different methods to produce (or acquire) their models. It's a broad church and should remain a broad church.

 

In the time that I've built quite a lot of locos, but not much else, you've built a layout and enough locos to make the operation interesting. So you've had the benefit of seeing them do what they were designed to do - pull trains. I haven't, as yet, had that pleasure.

 

So keep on going with the hobby that we all enjoy so much.

 

Regards

 

Mike

[ArthurK]

Whereas the DJH D20 has many faults there are (or were) some very good cast kits available. from various manufactures.  Two no longer available are the Finelines kits for the D20 and Q6 from Roger Chivers. I had the honour of making the masters for these, Hence the NER bias.

 

I built the D20in P4 gauge (a bit tight but then the driving wheels don't need side play on a 4-4-0). 

 

 

ArthurK