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rowanj

Building BR ex-LNER from kits.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, rowanj said:

The Clerestory almost completed. The LNER Brown is Precision Track Dirt, and, over Halfords Red Primer, gives a suitably faded look, I think. The compartment interior is simply cut and shut from an old Hornby, (or possibly even Triang) CK, overlaid with printouts from a Bill Bedford/Mousa download. I doubt it is prototypical, but gives a decent impression of something happening inside.

 

I see a couple of spots where the solder between roof and sides has come away, so I'll add a small spot of filler and touch it up.

 

I built the coach without the central footboard, most of which seemed to have been removed by the LNER. Again, whether this is correct I'm not certain.

 

At the moment, I'll not add transfers, in the hope that a photo in early BR days turned up, assuming the coaches lasted that long. I wondered about using LNER numerals with an added E. 

 

I have a D&S Dia 171 6-wheel Luggage/Milk van in the pile. Unless other kits turn up, this will complete the rake. A batch went on Ebay a couple of weeks ago for quite a bit of money, and I don't need any more at that price,

 

 

Good evening John,

 

NER 6 wheel luggage van? By coincidence, I finished painting mine today. Being forced to abandon playing with dangerous products, due to recent not wellness, I'm glad to be back in the saddle. Because brown is everything on the spiritual home thread of the NER, I feel obliged to recount the type. So, Andy brown 1c all over body mix, Andy brown 2, dirt wash mix and finally, Andy brown panel highlight mix 3a and 3b. That's your lot.

 

I've run out of coupling hooks, so those and the screw links are yet to be fitted. I shall also touch up the cornice as I over sprayed roof colour slightly due to incompetent masking.

 

NER BZ Electric light2.jpg

Edited by Headstock
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Andrew,

What a splendid chap you are. That picture will be very useful when I get round to it, so expect plenty of queries. Mine too will be a later build with the more "modern" lookout and electric lighting. I stole the older lookout casting for the Clerestory.

I did think to paint mine in LNER teak, as I believe they were often attached to main and secondary passenger trains.

Regards

John

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Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, rowanj said:

Andrew,

What a splendid chap you are. That picture will be very useful when I get round to it, so expect plenty of queries. Mine too will be a later build with the more "modern" lookout and electric lighting. I stole the older lookout casting for the Clerestory.

I did think to paint mine in LNER teak, as I believe they were often attached to main and secondary passenger trains.

Regards

John

 

Good evening John,

 

D&S kits are very good, I had to make a couple of modifications for the electric light version. The only thing to watch out for over all is the J hangers with the loops. The drawing and instructions suggest that they supported the springs on the outer Edge of the chassis, one at each end on each side. They didn't, the J hangers with loops were located on the spring for the centre wheels. Many of these kits have been built with this incorrect detail.

 

The other details associated with the electric lights are, the cut out in the lower stepboards for the dynamo and battery box, the latter was on the other side from that shown in the image. The Dynamo is reversed from the normal position with the belt outboard. I don't know why this was done. Perhaps to give easier access to the belt because of the position of the battery box. The cut out in the steps is the same size each side and located towards the end with the double windows. The other alteration on some vans was the fitting of LNER style grab handles to the guard's door. The curved grab handle on the end with the two single windows was removed on some vans, this may have been a late feature associated with some departmental vehicles.

 

 

Edited by Headstock
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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, rowanj said:

I did think to paint mine in LNER teak, as I believe they were often attached to main and secondary passenger trains.

Regards

John

 

Morning John,

 

I just wrote you a rather informative  bunch of notes on the use of BZ's. Unfortunately, the forum crashed and it was all lost. A somewhat simplified version, Yes, they were commonly seen attached to ordinary passenger trains but not express passenger trains. Unless the latter were conveying mainly NPC's, but providing limited passenger accommodation.

 

Ordinary passenger trains were the lifeblood of the services requiring many types of van workings. The thing to consider is that the vans were running independently, on their own duties and not providing luggage or guards accommodation for the rest of the train. They might be operating as a milk van, carrying bakery items or loco stores, as well as general parcels traffic. The dedicated parcels train, beloved of railway modellers, were relatively rare for most of the steam period, they became dominant as the extensive network of ordinary passenger train services were scrapped. These services provided a spiders web of van traffic to all corners of the country, it was here that a myriad of NPC's could be found plying their trade.

 

In conclusion, I wouldn't associate a teak livery with a type of working. BZ's were attached to passenger trains out of convenience of getting them from point A to B and C, not as a luggage or guards van, working as part of the formation.*

 

* Though that was their original designed function before the grouping.

Edited by Headstock
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Can't fault what Andrew's written.   If you look at the working timetable and Carriage working documents from the period (NERA publish some which might be relevant, otherwise Robert Carroll runs an excellent group and publishes such documents) then certain services are prohibited from attaching/detaching tail traffic, but others are allowed to and some spend as much time in stations adding and removing vans as they do travelling. 

 

Your short set would be an ideal candidate if you have an odd van or horsebox which needed forwarding - a stationmaster would simply arrange for it to be attached on a given date.  If you're interested there are some fascinating documents around this which survive - an article in the Great Western Journal as few years ago about sending a horsebox from Newbury to Newmarket (I think) made you realise just how much work was involved, but also how flexible the system was.

 

I also think your van would be unlikely to be teak - it would have been painted crimson under the NER so would have gone to brown after 1923.   Some NER carriages were painted faux teak not long after the grouping but it wasn't a long lived experiment and I haven't read that any NPCCS was included.

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Posted (edited)

Most vans worked their own diagrams, day in day out. Some could take three days to complete and there would be more than one van involved in the working. One could be working out, one unloading and another working back on a three-day cycle.

 

I include an example of the working for which my van is built.

 

fig 1 is ordinary passenger train working 62. Leicester Central to Woodford, the formation is given at the top of the page. The actual service is the 5.22pm departure from Leicester central. I have circled the departure time in carriage working 62, below and to the right. If you look at the attach column, you will see a T (non gangway third) and BZ (616) attached to the train at Leicester Central.

 

This was done by the Loco waiting to take over the service at Leicester, that would become the 5.22 pm departure. The loco would be waiting in the bay platform with the BZ and third already coupled up.

 

Fig 2  BZ (616) The number refers to the van working in the appendix. If we look that up, 616 is a stores van from Gorton works, it arrived at Leicester at 4.08 pm and is due to depart at 5.22 pm. Its final destination is Aylesbury, being detached on route at Woodford. You will notice it works 515 the next day, this will eventually bring it home to Gorton works.

 

Fig 3 is a rather poor but authentic image of the 5.22pm Leicester- Woodford, just south of the Midland railway bridge in the Leicester suburbs. The attached BZ (616) and non gangway third ( actually a downgraded seven compartment first) are behind the J11 and then the Gresley gangway five set.

 

 

Ordinary passenger train working 62.jpg

van working 616.jpg

ORD 01 IMG_0928.JPG

Edited by Headstock
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Posted (edited)

I include another image of the 5.22pm, this time at Rugby. On this occasion the Gorton works stores van is an ex MSLR carriage conversion and the non gangway third is a Gresley CL. Also, of note is the GWR horsebox, returning to the Western region from a race day at Nottingham, exactly the kind of one off add on traffic described by Jonathan.

 

ATT00031.jpg

Edited by Headstock
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I am gratified by the last few posts, having received a couple of messages the other day suggesting that, if this is the best I can do, I should pack it in and stick to RTR.. I'm painfully aware of my limitations, but seriously considered reverting to lurker status. Andrew and Jonathan's posts have restored my faith, if not my bruised confidence.

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Your work is great, don't listen to those that are just jealous.

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17 minutes ago, rowanj said:

I am gratified by the last few posts, having received a couple of messages the other day suggesting that, if this is the best I can do, I should pack it in and stick to RTR.. I'm painfully aware of my limitations, but seriously considered reverting to lurker status. Andrew and Jonathan's posts have restored my faith, if not my bruised confidence.

 

Your attitude is also great, don't listen to those that are just full of snot and bile.

 

I've found your thread inspiring, something to look forwards to, when I was feeling unwell and couldn't do any modelling.

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1 hour ago, Headstock said:

I include another image of the 5.22pm, this time at Rugby. On this occasion the Gorton works stores van is an ex MSLR carriage conversion and the non gangway third is a Gresley CL. Also, of note is the GWR horsebox, returning to the Western region from a race day at Nottingham, exactly the kind of one off add on traffic described by Jonathan.

 

ATT00031.jpg

Until seeing this and the previous picture, I never realied that sometimes gangwayed and non-gangwayed stock ran  in the same train. The coach behind the BZ in the earlier shot loooks like a non-gangwayed first, although I maybe wrong.

 

John.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, John Tomlinson said:

Until seeing this and the previous picture, I never realied that sometimes gangwayed and non-gangwayed stock ran  in the same train. The coach behind the BZ in the earlier shot loooks like a non-gangwayed first, although I maybe wrong.

 

John.

 

Afternoon John,

 

It was fairly common when you had ordinary passenger trains to mix the types, usually as strengtheners and even as part of the main body of the train in later periods. At Leicester, in the sidings on the west side of the station, there was a reasonably sized fleet of non gangway stock from all four corners of the LNER, specifically allocated to the duty of strengthening trains.

 

P.S. Yes it's a corridor first, probably excepting all classes or downgraded to full third.

Edited by Headstock
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2 hours ago, rowanj said:

I am gratified by the last few posts, having received a couple of messages the other day suggesting that, if this is the best I can do, I should pack it in and stick to RTR.. I'm painfully aware of my limitations, but seriously considered reverting to lurker status. Andrew and Jonathan's posts have restored my faith, if not my bruised confidence.

One wonders who these morons are - we ought to send the boys round to have a quiet word!

 

I greatly enjoy following your thread and have also learnt a lot from doing so. As has been said by others, our hobby is, or should be, about DOING, and you do lots. Please carry on and keep posting.

 

John.

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John {T) has just summed up my own feelings on the subject....just sent you a PM......won't be sending any cash mind there is only so far my sympathy goes....

 

best wishes Brian

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John,

            I read your post above about comments you've received  (PMs?) with disbelief. If you want a confidence booster, just look back through your thread and note some of the names whose interest, support and input you've attracted by your efforts. Accentuate the positives and in your case ignore the negatives, your work is fine and all your own efforts, with some help and advice of worthy modellers thrown in.

 

Regards, 

 

                 John

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3 hours ago, rowanj said:

I am gratified by the last few posts, having received a couple of messages the other day suggesting that, if this is the best I can do, I should pack it in and stick to RTR.. I'm painfully aware of my limitations, but seriously considered reverting to lurker status. Andrew and Jonathan's posts have restored my faith, if not my bruised confidence.

That's a horrible thing to have had happen, John. Shame on those responsible :angry::angry:

 

Please keep posting - I also enjoy seeing what you're doing :good_mini:

 

Mark

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Keyboard warriors , upto you John but I would report them to the Mods . This forum seems to have some very "odd" characters, who need to be got rid off asap.

 

We all work to our limits and experience , no one is perfect and never will be.

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Hello John

 

I agree with the comments posted above - please keep posting! I look forward to reading about what you are making. 

 

I have a copy of the 1932 carriage roster that NERA publish so, out of interest, I looked up the Newcastle to Morpeth workings ( please forgive me if my geography has let me down and this didn’t go through Little Benton).

 

One working might be of interest because it attached 2 XBV to the carriage set 166 (C, T, BT*2) at Newcastle. One of the vans was then dropped off at Newsham and one at Bedlington.

 

Another example of the sort of working that Andrew posted about. Hope it is useful.

 

Jon

 

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7 hours ago, rowanj said:

I am gratified by the last few posts, having received a couple of messages the other day suggesting that, if this is the best I can do, I should pack it in and stick to RTR.. I'm painfully aware of my limitations, but seriously considered reverting to lurker status. Andrew and Jonathan's posts have restored my faith, if not my bruised confidence.

You will probably find they will never do any actual modelling apart from open a box!. I suggest they are reported to Andy and the Admins as that sort of behavior has no place on here. It should be about encouraging. I am finding your thread really interesting. 

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Posted (edited)

The attached photos may be of interest, The Newcastle-Consett service seemed to attract a motley collection of carriage stock- I have another photo from 1939 of aK2 of all things on a train with coaches like my leading pair.

No date was given on the N8 photo, but it must be after 1951, when Darlington began turning out the N8's in lined BR livery with early crest. interesting that the passengers get ancient NER Clerestories, while luggage goes in what looks like a much younger Gresley LNER PV 

The loco is an LRM kit.

EPSON002.JPG

IMG_20200519_210223.jpg

Edited by rowanj
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49 minutes ago, Jon4470 said:

 

 

I have a copy of the 1932 carriage roster that NERA publish so, out of interest, I looked up the Newcastle to Morpeth workings ( please forgive me if my geography has let me down and this didn’t go through Little Benton).

 

One working might be of interest because it attached 2 XBV to the carriage set 166 (C, T, BT*2) at Newcastle. One of the vans was then dropped off at Newsham and one at Bedlington.

 

Another example of the sort of working that Andrew posted about. Hope it is useful.

 

Jon

 

Hi Jon.

 

The chances are that this working lasted for quite a few years, well into BR days. One BV would presumably go on to Blyth, from Newsham, and the other to Ashington/Newbiggin. The train may have gone from Newcastle up the ECML, or alternatively round the North Tyneside loop through South Gosforth before heading up the Blyth and Tyne mainline. It presumably then took the branch rom Bedlington through Choppington to Morpeth Either way, I'd be happy to run a train like this on my layout- I'm not that precious.

 

I'm also not particularly thin-skinned, and certainly wont be reporting anybody. Folk are entitled to their views, and if you post stuff publicly, you live with the consequences. I do wish though, that folk would read what they post or e.mail before pushing "send". One of the individuals has been in touch to correct any misunderstanding - I suspect the effect of lockdown was part off the issue.

 

Grateful for the messages of support.

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Nothing very elaborate, but this is a Bachmann J39 with the tender from a DJH D20/C7. All I really did to the render was open up the rear coal rails, and added some detail on the rear. I need the upper lamp iron when I next see Perter at 52F. Models., and coal will be added.

The ex- NER tender does change the look of the loco, I think I followed Yeadon to arrive at a suitable loco for Tyneside. I'd assumed most J39/3 engines with ex-NER tenders were early builds, but not so. This particular loco, fitted from new with this tender, was built in 1940.

The paintwork is Railmatch Weather Black, straight from the can, over Halfotds Red Primer, which lets rust through nicely.

 

IMG_20200528_100250.jpg

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Another tale from the scrapbox/sparesbox. I'm not sure how far I'll get with this, but let's see.

 

Years ago, I got a set of Graeme King resin castings for the A1/1. He recommended using a Hornby A3 with a Dia 107 boiler as the donor, but, rightly as it turned out, I was apprehensive about my ability to carve up an expensive loco on what would have been my first effort, so I used the body from a tender-drive A3, meaning to change the appearance of the boiler in due course. The loco went on a modified Railroad chassis, and ran OK until the motor came out of gear and the altered valve gear failed. So the whole lot went into a drawer and has remained there ever since.

A few years back, I won a Wills A3 on Ebay when prices were "normal". It came with the original whitemetal chassis, and I tried to get it to run, using Romfords and intending to fit Hornby valve gear. The chassis was filed out to take a modern gearbox, which ran OK but the valve gear idea just didn't work. So I bought a Comet chassis, "The Tetrarch" was born, and the whitemetal chassis went into another drawer.

You know how things just keep staring at you when you are looking for something else?  I have a Wills A4 in the unbuilt pile, and a Comet chassis. A good friend had a few Romford 26mm wheels he had no use for, and offered them to me. When the bag arrived, there were more than a dozen- what a superb gift- and that chassis still kept looking at me..

To be continued.

 

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Posted (edited)

Graeme was right about which type Loco to use.  Is the valve gear destroyed ?

 

Luckily again in quieter times, you could pick up damaged Hornby superdetail  A3's for good/sensible prices . Nowdays  you will be lucky to find any at all, I have been looking for a damaged one for months to convert to a ACFI version , (anyone got a damaged one for sale !!) .

 

 

Edited by micklner

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, micklner said:

Graeme was right about which type Loco to use.  Is the valve gear destroyed ?

 

Luckily again in quieter times, you could pick up damaged Hornby superdetail  A3's for good/sensible prices . Nowdays  you will be lucky to find any at all, I have been looking for a damaged one for months to convert to a ACFI version , (anyone got a damaged one for sale !!) .

 

 

A bit off topic, but I don't think I've bought anything on ebay since the lockdown started. Old kits especially seem to have gone for bonkers prices - an unbuilt Millholme H&B J28 was up over £400 when I delisted it from my "watch" list, who knows what it actually went for. Ditto RTR, not much point buying pre-owned if a new one is similar in price!

 

I've had a Crownline A1/1 in my cupboard for a few years now. It has a resin boiler & firebox that most definitely isn't the shape of anything that came out of Doncaster, and would make the loco look like a hump-backed whale if used as is. I think the cab proportions are a bit off as well. I'd like to have a go at it one day, but fear that when I start it will be one of those kits that ends up taking forever with all the faffing about to make it right.

 

John.

Edited by John Tomlinson

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