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Building BR ex-LNER from kits.


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8 hours ago, rowanj said:

Hello, Mark.

Perhaps I've been a bit too harsh in my criticism of the kit. It may be that my building skills don't help, and, to be fair, it is starting to look like a J27. As you say, the kit is of its' time, and we were glad to get them back then. i actually looked at the loco as a rear three-quarter view, and thought it wasn't too bad.

 

I have made a start on the tender, hoping to get away without the horrid sub-chassis and the additional weight it brings. Pinpoint bearing have been force-fitted into the frames, and the wheels should run freely in them. If that works OK, then it's just down to detailing. I don't see a reversing lever or guard irons in the kit, but none of that is too difficult to fabricate

 

 

Hi John. I suspect that you made life difficult for yourself, judging by your description of your efforts to get the Mitsumi to fit. Been there, done that myself on models :( . I like the sound of what you're doing to the tender though - anything to reduce the weight of the tender has got to help with performance :)

 

Mark.

 

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After these photos, I am only left with tidying up, fitting details, then painting, so unless something catastrophic happens, I'll leave it here until completion.

I remember Dave Alexander being particularly critical of the NuCast boiler, and the shape of the firebox in particular. It should have a taper over the firebox. So I have changed my mind and 65863 will be modelled as a in pre-March 1959 condition, still Super-heated with a 57 boiler. I'll have to re-instate the boiler bands, but that isnt a problem. I also need to fit a lubricator to the LH footplate, which I need to source. I have replaced the smaller dome on earlier photos to better represent that shown in the Scotrail photo. 

I found, in the kit, a casting for the guardirons, as well as one for the reversing lever and the operating lever in the cab. There wasn't a rear coalplate for the tender, so I fabricated that. All the photos show the coal rails plated, so i<ll do that too. I hate the cast connection between loco and tender, so I use a hook and bar.I also need to fit the lever running the length of LH boiler to the sandbox on the front splasher.

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John,

 

Arthur Kimber does a sprue of ex-NER mechanical lubricators, eight off, cast in brass, which is sold as a separate item. I'll take the liberty of posting a photo of the B16/1, which has two of these lubricator castings on the RHS of its footplate, to illustrate the quality of this casting.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

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Edited by Mike Megginson
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I know - a picture on the layout doesn't prove that it works, but, honestly, this is the basic loco on its; proving run before I add the final details. I'm happy to say that the loco works well, though I need to adjust the loco-tender connection. I also was pleased/relieved that the W&T wheels ran without a wobble and through all my PECO pointwork. These wheels are plastic so are all insulated, so I used their tags which fit behind the wheel and rub on the metal axle to provide the non-insulated side  - I prefer a live chassis, all things being equal. I wouldnt dream of claiming these wheels are as good as Markits or as accurate as Gibsons, but I had them in stock, and think they are good enough for this kit,

A confession - I gave up with the Mitsumi motor, and fitted my last Mashima 1015 motor to a High Level Roadrunner Compact+ to run the chassis. I dropped the tiny grubscrew, never to be seen again, A 1.4 x 2mm screw, as used to fit these motors, works as well, and is in my view, easier to fit without loss.

Now to finish off the body/tender and my Superheated version of the J27 will go into service.

IMG_20200720_210527.jpg

Edited by rowanj
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Superheated J27 65863 is almost ready for service. It still needs coal and a crew, and I'll add a bit of rust here and there. The longer smokebox and continuous handrails make it sufficiently different to my other pair of J27's, and the prototype, in my time period, was allocated to Heaton and North Blyth, so fits in well on the layout.

 

As Mark said, a lot of the issues with the kit were self inflicted trying to get the Mtisumi motor into the firebox, and the kit otherwise was OK for its' age. The castings needed a lot of cleaning, and, though not perfect, the fit wasn't too bad. I added some detail in the cab, though there was a decent backplate and some added detail amongst the castings - reversing lever and regulator, for example. The main omission on the body is the sanding rod(if that is what it is) which runs the length of the LH boiler side. Superheated J27's need a lubricator, not in the kit, and I fitted one from my spares box, but have taken up Mike Meggison ( the artist formerly known as Mikemeg) 's suggestion and ordered a sprue of NER ones from Arthur Kimber. I may replace the one here, or keep them for future projects.

 

The tender seems odd. I couldn't find a rear coal plate, and the instructions suggest there wasn't one. I seem to remember the original Alexander kit was the same, so I assume there is some authenticity. All the photos I have, including Yeadon, show a rear plate and plated rails. This was a simple job, and makes a big difference. The loco tender connection is my preferred hook and bar method. It needs coal and a rear coupling to complete,

 

Paint is Railmatch Weather Black, over Red Halfords Primer, Letters are HMRS Pressfix. For locos like this, I just print the front numberplate from a template using Word.

 

Now to finish the Wills A4, which has magically had an ornithological transformation from a kingfisher to a bittern.

 

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To complete the NuCast J27 story....

 

Classic North East England in the latish 50's. The J27,  one of the last superheated locos, based at North Blyth, but given a rest from hoppers and rostered on the Newbiggin-Newcastle Forth pick-up goods. It is actually on test after a bit of a fight with the ancient NuCast kit. I didn't spot many builds of the superheated version, so it makes a bit of a change from my other pair - not that the spotters will care, or even know. 

 

The B16/1 was the first etched kit I ever built, right at the start of this thread. 61410 has a special to Morpeth, then up the "Wannie" to Scots Gap for the Bellingham Agricultural Show. It has a buffet in the train, so may have been part- booked by one of the major employers on Tyneside. The date must be the last Saturday in October 1958, as the Bellingham Show is the last in the calendar.

 

 

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Do you guys mind if I occasionally post details of the ex LNER(BR) 4mm loco's that I build? Currently a DJH A2/3 with a Crownline A1/1 planned next.

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

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50 minutes ago, 30368 said:

Do you guys mind if I occasionally post details of the ex LNER(BR) 4mm loco's that I build? Currently a DJH A2/3 with a Crownline A1/1 planned next.

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

Knock yourself out, Richard. Look forward to seeing your work.

John

 

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London Road Models K2/2 that I made earlier.

Excellent kit in many ways but challenging.

 

651395064_004(2).JPG.a7ed4bc8d960485eb9db047d0b665442.JPG

 

Many thanks and...

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

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I have a question regarding the BR Loco green livery applied to 60523 (and other A2/3s as far as I can see) in the late 1950s. Most express classes painted green (or red) had all the footplate "bits" (lubricators etc) painted black. As far as I can see the A2/3s (and, presumably the A1s) has the sandbox fillers and brackets painted green. Is that correct guys?

 

Sun castle is now in the paintshop in her various major components. The smokebox will be brush painted with thinned black enamel. I have used Railmatch etching primer and BR Loco Green.

 

A few pictures of the body prior to painting.

 

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Kind regards,

 

Richard B

 

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I think they should be black, and this is how I paint mine. The best evidence I have is of 60522 at Newcastle in 1962 and they are, I'm 99% certain, black. 

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A very nice thread, John (and other contributors). 

 

A couple of questions to the assembled experts if I may: like John I'm building a rake of D&S ex-NER clerestories. They'll be for my dad's rendition of 1930s Goathland. The first question is what do people use for grab handles on these coaches? Neither the MJT LNER or BR ones fit (there's no reason why they should, but they're what I have in stock). I'm prepared to make some jigs and bend handles up from wire if I have to, but if there's something ready made it would make the job easier. 

 

The next question is about the prototype: am I right in thinking these carriages changed from gas lighting to electric at some point? At least one of the kits (an elliptical roof 8-compartment) comes with battery boxes, which suggests this is the case; however, I did buy this second hand and the seller may have just stuffed some random carriage parts in the box... If they did go electric, when did it happen and what changes occurred? Was there any modification to roof fittings? The gas tanks presumably went, but I've seen somewhere that the gas taps on the carriage end stayed - is that right? 

 

Finally, at what point did the centre section of the footboards (between the bogies) disappear? There are some photos of carriages without them in Benham's super book on the NYMR, but when that happens the date is always vague (late 1930s) (my dad models 1936); conversely, in the photos dated 1935, the full footboards are always present.  

 

Thanks in advance for any help! 

David. 

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37 minutes ago, Daddyman said:

A very nice thread, John (and other contributors). 

 

A couple of questions to the assembled experts if I may: like John I'm building a rake of D&S ex-NER clerestories. They'll be for my dad's rendition of 1930s Goathland. The first question is what do people use for grab handles on these coaches? Neither the MJT LNER or BR ones fit (there's no reason why they should, but they're what I have in stock). I'm prepared to make some jigs and bend handles up from wire if I have to, but if there's something ready made it would make the job easier. 

 

The next question is about the prototype: am I right in thinking these carriages changed from gas lighting to electric at some point? At least one of the kits (an elliptical roof 8-compartment) comes with battery boxes, which suggests this is the case; however, I did buy this second hand and the seller may have just stuffed some random carriage parts in the box... If they did go electric, when did it happen and what changes occurred? Was there any modification to roof fittings? The gas tanks presumably went, but I've seen somewhere that the gas taps on the carriage end stayed - is that right? 

 

Finally, at what point did the centre section of the footboards (between the bogies) disappear? There are some photos of carriages without them in Benham's super book on the NYMR, but when that happens the date is always vague (late 1930s) (my dad models 1936); conversely, in the photos dated 1935, the full footboards are always present.  

 

Thanks in advance for any help! 

David. 

David

         I am now battling with 6 D&S NER Cleos in various stages of build (dont ask!!) .

 

        Handles. I use ones from Roxey Mouldings, exact size for the D&S etched holes, listed as LSWR but near enough for me !!

https://www.roxeymouldings.co.uk/category/63/4mm-scale-etched-accessories-by-roxey-mouldings/

 

    Re the other questions all I have ever read, is vague in the extreme.

 

Gas to Electric late 1930's only on some . Perhaps the ones that went to the GER were only done ?? . No Gas tanks and Roof lamps , I have seen a model with small bumps ( I presume that is the top of the lights) on the Cleo roof and wire in between each "bump" on the roof ? Sounds a very exposed way of adding wiring to electric lights . I would have thought even then they would have run the cable inside the roof? They must have Battery Boxes and a Dynamo as well.

Some info

https://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=8834&hilit=NER+Battery+boxes

 

Centre Footboards some removed in the 1930's ? again that is all I have ever read. It wasnt unusual if they were damaged, for them not to be replaced.

 

Mine are retaining all the fittings as built , much easier !!

 

 

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3 minutes ago, micklner said:

David

         I am now battling with 6 D&S NER Cleos in various stages of build (dont ask!!) .

 

        Handles. I use ones from Roxey Mouldings, exact size for the D&S etched holes, listed as LSWR but near enough for me !!

https://www.roxeymouldings.co.uk/category/63/4mm-scale-etched-accessories-by-roxey-mouldings/

 

    Re the other questions all I have ever read, is vague in the extreme.

 

Gas to Electric late 1930's only on some . Perhaps the ones that went to the GER were only done ?? . No Gas tanks and Roof lamps , I have seen a model with small bumps ( I presume that is the top of the lights) on the Cleo roof and wire in between each "bump" on the roof ? Sounds a very exposed way of adding wiring to electric lights . I would have thought even then they would have run the cable inside the roof? They must have Battery Boxes and a Dynamo as well.

Some info

https://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=8834&hilit=NER+Battery+boxes

 

Centre Footboards some removed in the 1930's ? again that is all I have ever read. It wasnt unusual if they were damaged, for them not to be replaced.

 

Mine are retaining all the fittings as built , much easier !!

 

 

Thanks Mick, I also have a couple of ex NER coaches in the pile that were cascaded to the GE area. I *think* all the ones sent were electrically lit but I haven't seen definitive proof unfortunately.

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19 minutes ago, Paul Cram said:

From 1906/7 the elliptical roof stock were built with electical lighting and the D&S kit I have has this  (bought from Danny). I don't know when the clerestories were changed . I use bent wire for the handrails.

 

I have a D130 (brake 3rd) and D127 (3rd) and they only come with long battery boxes - which don't appear to fit the underframe. I bought them part-built but I don't think they have been built incorrectly. I think one of them has a short battery box which would fit - the above photos are the first I've seen showing where.

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2 hours ago, Daddyman said:

A very nice thread, John (and other contributors). 

 

 

David. 

Thanks for the post, David. You may recall you were kind enough to help me out with a bit of a Mainline J72 a couple pf years ago.

 

The research to build these NER coaches was/is almost as much fun as the actual construction, and I still ended up making assumptions, rather than having certainty.

 

Re door handles, I used MJT/Dart LNER. They are too long, but I found them easy enough to adapt. I never managed to track down "legit" ex-NER ones.

 

On lower footboards, I have a photo of a D20 on a 4-coach Clerestory set on a Pickering train dated June 1938. All still have the lower footboard intact, So you should be safe leaving them in place, though I suspect a few may have been removed as they went through Works in your time period.

 

The photo is frustratingly unclear on lighting. I model a later period when gas lighting in survivors would have been very rare. I was advised that the converted coaches lost the tanks but kept some of the gubbins, as you suggest, and the roof had round plate covers where the lamps were removed- I used thin plasticard  from a hole punch to replicate this.

 

I still have a couple of D&S elliptical roof stock to build, and Worsley Works have added to their "scratch-aid " Clerestory range, so I'll be interested to see how this conversation goes. I'll also try to scan the photo I referred to, and post that if it comes out OK.

 

John

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Axxording to North Eastern Record lectric lighting was introduced in 1904. In 1908 the gas lighting was change to incandescent burners so it would appear to be elecric lighting for new build only. At what point changes to electric were made is mentioned. It would appear that the only way of knowing would be by photographs of the stock at the period.

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Here are the photos I referred to. The source is "Railways of the North York Moors" by BackTrack Railways. I dont know if it is still in print - I got mine second-hand. Pls respect copyright.

 

The 1938 photo, when cropped, seems clear that gas lights have been removed from the roof. Those are just ventilators, aren't they? I dont see anything on the actual Clerestory roof to show lights or conduit, but it's not totally clear.

 

The 1947 photo is offered as a later alternative, and is one I used to validate the removal of the lower footboards on my  very early 50's models. Interesting disparity in ride height between the front pair of coaches.

EPSON005 (2).JPG

EPSON005.JPG

EPSON006.JPG

Edited by rowanj
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Re the latest photos.

 

They show the "Blobs" on the roof no wiring obvious. I presume the book says 1938 in the text for the first two photos?

 

Re Grab rails these are the Roxey ones installed much better than wire IMHO.

 

fullsizeoutput_3294.jpeg.d1079e5f761bb09bf181813f5873a0a5.jpeg

 

 

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23 minutes ago, micklner said:

Re the latest photos.

 

They show the "Blobs" on the roof no wiring obvious. I presume the book says 1938 in the text for the first two photos?

 

Re Grab rails these are the Roxey ones installed much better than wire IMHO.

 

fullsizeoutput_3294.jpeg.d1079e5f761bb09bf181813f5873a0a5.jpeg

 

 

Hi Mick..Hope you are well.

Yes, there is something there, but are they lights? They look like torpedo vents to me. 

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This is a sharp as I could get a cropped version without losing all the detail. What is the consensus? 

The photo was captioned June 1938, train to Pickering near Stillington.

 

PS-to Mike Trice - loved the3D V2 - many thanks.

 

EPSON005 (2).JPG

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I have a couple of photos of Pateley Bridge trains that I grabbed off the internet. ( so probably shouldn’t post here)

 

One is described as “Excursion train 1935). It has J21 number 1515 on the front and 4 clerestory coaches make up the train. All of them have full running boards. The roof details are indistinct  though. ( I actually think this is the standard Saturday service and not an excursion by the way)

 

The other photo shows a three coach train - again all clerestory coaches. These all have full foot boards and the first two coaches (at least) only seem to have ventilators (no gas lamp tops). Unfortunately I don’t have a date for this photo.

 

I know that this is a different locality, and therefore not directly comparable to NYMR, but hope it may be of use.

 

Jon

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