RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted December 12, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 12, 2015 Recently I was drawing the sides of the various 25 KVa Mk1 slam door suburban EMUs. When I came to do the sloping front types I noticed that the ER sets, the 305s and 308s had longer cab side windows and they were set further back than the similar looking 304s. Tonight Mr Dagworth PMs me asking if the AM4s had the same cab as the AM5s and 8s. I replied regarding what I had found with the sides. I then thought I better check if the fronts differed as well. They do the ER sets have smaller windscreens that the LMR ones. The angle the windscreens rake back is nearly the same but not quite, the ER units slope further back. Well I suppose every day is a school day. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold rodent279 Posted December 12, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 12, 2015 And of course, the similar looking Bury units, class 504, had 3 full depth windscreens. Must admit, I've never really picked up on the difference between AM5/8 & AM4's, but you're right, it's there. Think all were built at Wolverton weren't they? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted December 12, 2015 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted December 12, 2015 And of course, the similar looking Bury units, class 504, had 3 full depth windscreens. Must admit, I've never really picked up on the difference between AM5/8 & AM4's, but you're right, it's there. Think all were built at Wolverton weren't they? Hi Rodent The AM4 and the Bury sets were Wolverton built. The AM5 were Doncaster and the AM8s were from York. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
doodaa Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 I have a Southern pride 304 and a 305 on the bench at the moment, they do have a long and a short cab casting, but not sure on the windows. In work so cant check on it. steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Hey Clive, if I smiled at you very nicely (not creepily) would you be able to PM me a slightly larger version of your 305 and 308 side drawings please? Including centre carriages if you have them too? Thank you! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Huw Griffiths Posted March 30, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 30, 2016 Hey Clive, if I smiled at you very nicely (not creepily) would you be able to PM me a slightly larger version of your 305 and 308 side drawings please? Including centre carriages if you have them too? Thank you! I've only just picked up on this thread - and I find myself remembering the "304" and "504" units I encountered in the Manchester and Liverpool areas, back in the 1980s, when I was a student industrial trainee with the CEGB. (I can also remember some "303" sets in Manchester - which seemed slightly less claustrophobic.) Recently, I also came across an article about the "304" units on the Railways Archive site - http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=4082 - which included some very small line drawings of the "304/1" units used in in the Manchester area. In the medium term, I'd quite like to have a go at kitbashing some suburban coach bodies into something resembling a "304" or a "504". For this reason, I hope you don't mind me making a similar request about the "304" drawings. Many thanks, Huw. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Adam1701D Posted March 31, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 31, 2016 Many thanks for that post, Clive - very informative. I'm in the process of drawing up the 304 in N as part of the Electra range and will be looking out for any variations when doing the ER versions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted March 31, 2016 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted March 31, 2016 Hey Clive, if I smiled at you very nicely (not creepily) would you be able to PM me a slightly larger version of your 305 and 308 side drawings please? Including centre carriages if you have them too? Thank you! Hey Clive, if I smiled at you very nicely (not creepily) would you be able to PM me a slightly larger version of your 305 and 308 side drawings please? Including centre carriages if you have them too? Thank you! Hi Goldfish, I missed this post. Look on the Barrowmore club site, they have uploaded my EMU diagram book. http://Model, noun representation in 3 dimensions of existing person or thing or proposed structure esp. on smaller scale.....(Oxford dictionary) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 Hey Clive, you sent me all of them earlier this year. Cheers again though! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted March 31, 2016 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted March 31, 2016 Hey Clive, you sent me all of them earlier this year. Cheers again though! It is old age, now where are my shoes? Oh look they are on my feet, how did they get there? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 Recently I was drawing the sides of the various 25 KVa Mk1 slam door suburban EMUs. When I came to do the sloping front types I noticed that the ER sets, the 305s and 308s had longer cab side windows and they were set further back than the similar looking 304s. Tonight Mr Dagworth PMs me asking if the AM4s had the same cab as the AM5s and 8s. I replied regarding what I had found with the sides. I then thought I better check if the fronts differed as well. They do the ER sets have smaller windscreens that the LMR ones. The angle the windscreens rake back is nearly the same but not quite, the ER units slope further back. I don't think you can rely on the diagram book for fine detail such as this, it is apparent that the diagrams for the 305 and 308 are not as well drawn as the 304, and diagrams are not meant to show such detail. Without proper detail drawings or good photographic evidence I would not give any credence to those variations. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted March 31, 2016 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted March 31, 2016 I don't think you can rely on the diagram book for fine detail such as this, it is apparent that the diagrams for the 305 and 308 are not as well drawn as the 304, and diagrams are not meant to show such detail. Without proper detail drawings or good photographic evidence I would not give any credence to those variations. Regards Hi Keith Do you have any better drawings of EMUs that no longer are running? Because that would be a great help if you have. I have one for the trailer composite from a Southend 1500v DC unit, which looks like a BIG diagram drawing, not much more detail but loads of references to drawings of the various parts. The odd thing with the 305 and 308 diagrams, for both the four car and the three car versions, they all have the cabside windows in the same position and the same size. That is eight "not so well drawn" drawings. All the 304 diagrams have the their cabside window in a different position and a different size to those of the GER sets, that is all four drawings showing the cabs. That is why I concluded they were different. I only have one photocopy of a photo with a AM4 next to a AM5 when a few were loaned to the ER while the 1500v DC sets were being rebuilt. The quality and the angle the photo was taken does not readily show the difference. A quick look on Flickr shows the following. Class 308, note the side window is longer than the class 304. All the diagrams of the Mk1 overhead EMUs place the drivers door in the same position. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arun Sharma Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 The DEMU Society website has a wiki page with drawings of the cl 304s Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted April 3, 2016 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted April 3, 2016 I have a Southern pride 304 and a 305 on the bench at the moment, they do have a long and a short cab casting, but not sure on the windows. In work so cant check on it. steve Hi Steve, Looking back at the drawings you are correct there is two dimensions of cab length on the AM4s, the distance between the cab front and the guard/driver's door on the DTBS is greater, both small window (304/1) and big windie (304/2). The distance from the cab front to the driver's door on the DTS(L) is the same as that on the DTS(L) and DTS on the AM5 and 8s. All the cabs are 4ft 3 9/16th long it is just the door on the DTBS is further back. None of this changes the fact the ER cabside windows are longer than those of the LMR units. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranha230 Posted April 3, 2016 Share Posted April 3, 2016 The dc kit side windows are the same size, same with southern pride , the demu drawings cabside windows again are the same size, however on the 304,one cab is slightly longer, which southern pride have modelled, on the 305 and 308 both cabs are the same length. so if you buy a 304 kit from southern pride you will get 2 cabs of different lengths, if you buy a southern pride 305,308 kit both cabs are the same length. plenty of youtube vids showing 304,305,308, and also plenty of pics on flickr. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranha230 Posted April 3, 2016 Share Posted April 3, 2016 PS, on the southern pride class 304 ,305,308 the bodysides are etched brass, the cab front and sides are resin, formed to make a box, ie front ,sides,floor, and top all as one with a separate resin piece for the roof dome and head code box. so the etched side that goes with the long cab is a shorter etched brass side than the others. unfortunately the southern pride cab shape looks totally wrong, so what I do is use the dc kits cab side with windows and the cab front with the other southern pride bits. the good thing about the southern pride 304,305,308 is that he does the small bodyside windows 304,305,308, the large bodyside windows 304,305, and he does the facelifted refurbished 305,308, that had the double glazed windows and aluminium window frames. the dc kits front is also wrong, but the cabside windows look the right shape. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted April 3, 2016 Share Posted April 3, 2016 I've only just picked up on this thread - and I find myself remembering the "304" and "504" units I encountered in the Manchester and Liverpool areas, back in the 1980s, when I was a student industrial trainee with the CEGB. (I can also remember some "303" sets in Manchester - which seemed slightly less claustrophobic.) Recently, I also came across an article about the "304" units on the Railways Archive site - http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=4082 - which included some very small line drawings of the "304/1" units used in in the Manchester area. In the medium term, I'd quite like to have a go at kitbashing some suburban coach bodies into something resembling a "304" or a "504". For this reason, I hope you don't mind me making a similar request about the "304" drawings. Many thanks, Huw. My father (also ex-Manchester area CEGB) kitbashed a 304 out of three old Triang suburban coaches a few years ago as we often used to see a 304 when he dropped my sister and I off at school. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foulounoux Posted April 4, 2016 Share Posted April 4, 2016 Hugh Longworth's bible. BR Electric Multiple Units to 1975 is a great reference. I purchased it expecting something similar to the Power of Series ie more pictorial but it has diagrams and details of all units Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foulounoux Posted April 4, 2016 Share Posted April 4, 2016 An example part of a page Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted April 4, 2016 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted April 4, 2016 image.jpeg An example part of a page Hi Colin The diagrams in Hugh Longworth's book are the same as the ones I loaned the Barrowmore group. They have been cleaned up and had the dimensions taken off them. Where the diagram shows only the wheels not the bogies these have been added, just this evening I noticed that for the GER stock Gresley power bogies have been added not ordinary coach types as drawn on the 304 diagrams. I do think it is an excellent book, as are his DMU and BR coaches books. All three are well worth adding to the railway library if you have an interest in British Railways. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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