Cronstowe - WR Branch Junction/Timesaver Shunting Puzzle in OO

[BG John]

This topic was originally about designing my OO layout, and I was going to start a new one on the build. But as the build has so far ambled along at a pace that would frustrate a disabled snail, I've continued and renamed this topic instead. The build starts at Post 27. There's interesting stuff in the design that would otherwise have been lost anyway.

 

Red bit added 27/11/2017. Everything below this is unchanged

 

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The OO layout I started last Christmas didn't go according to plan for various reasons, so I'm having another go, using the same stock, and reusing the track. The basic plan is a Timesaver shunting puzzle, and it's also intended to be a "normal" layout too. This is the current plan:

 

It's a through station, using the Timesaver track plan, with a branch junction added. It's set somewhere on the Western Region in 1958-60. Track is Peco Code 75. The baseboard is just under 6ft 6in long and 1ft wide. The exact length depends if the ends of the door I'm making it from are square. Both the lines at the left end have short fiddle yards, long enough to take a Heljan Railbus, and my Lima GWR Railcar if it still works after years out of use, and I get round to converting it back from EM. The sidings are longer than the Timesaver rules, but the idea is to have wagons I can fix in place to shorten them during puzzle shunting. The tracks at both ends will also be able to take train length cassettes that extend outside the board, to run proper goods, and loco hauled passenger, trains.

 

This is a 3D view:

The scenery covers the fiddle yard end, as it will only hold the railbus and railcar. I've brought the backscene forward a bit, to make it easier to plug a cassette into the rear track. I'll normally operate it from the front, so will have to see how this works before I go too far. I may put an incline on the branch, so that anyone who tries to use it to cheat while shunting finds wagons they leave there running back into the station!

 

The big building is a dairy, as I've got some Dapol milk tanks. It's assumed that the station platform continues under the road bridge, and the station building is on the other side of the bridge. I only need enough platform for one coach length.

 

I need to check it all, but as it's designed to fit the Timesaver rules, the basic track plan can't be changed (unless anyone has better ideas!). The only thing that's probably open to question is the branch junction. It doesn't look quite right, as it comes off what is obviously the loop, and I'm wondering if it's more correct for it to come off the main line and cross the loop. It certainly seems to flow better, like this:

 

The problem with the right hand arrangement is that it looks as though I'll have to perform surgery on several Peco points to make it fit. I'm happy doing that, but it will slow down the job.

 

So I have a few questions:

1) Which junction arrangement is the most correct?

2) Is the whole track layout convincing enough as a real station to worry about getting the junction right?

When that's answered:

3) Where do I need catch and trap points (either real or dummy)

4) How should I signal it?

5) Where's the best place for the signal box, as I haven't included one yet?

 

Other suggestions are welcome, but I don't want to completely redesign it, as I want to get on with building it very quickly. The goods shed, goods office, and right hand road bridge are already built, and the big part of the dairy is almost done (all Scalescenes kits).

[RailWest]

If the branch is for passengers, then crossing the loop is going to cause problems, as there will need to be trap points in the loop each side of the branch in order to protect the branch - once you've done that, there won't be any room for wagons in either part of the loop!

 

Looking at it another way, why not keep the first plan but make the loop the main line and the main a goods loop?

[Stubby47]

Or swap the branch for the shed road (so the branch is nearest the front.)

[marc smith]

Yes, I'd say it would be incorrect if the running line crossed both roads of the loop....
Hmmm, I shall ponder some further suggestions...
I'd be interested to hear what others say re best practice, but I'm sure RailWest is right re the catch points

I like the timesaver plan though - it's one I've often pondered adapting myself
I like your idea of a railcar / railbus passenger service too, and the cassettes each end to enable that
One thing I'd say though, be careful of the height of the landscape on the left hand end

If operating from the front, the rear cassette may be tricky to access, and if operating from the back, the front cassette may be tricky to access
Think I'd make sure the landscape rises higher - to enable easier access to the cassettes. It's easy to underestimate the clearance you need for best access
I mean, you may have to re-rail the odd item traversing the join etc

EDIT: I note that like me BG John, you dabble in several scales!

 

[BG John]

If the branch is for passengers, then crossing the loop is going to cause problems, as there will need to be trap points in the loop each side of the branch in order to protect the branch - once you've done that, there won't be any room for wagons in either part of the loop!

 

Looking at it another way, why not keep the first plan but make the loop the main line and the main a goods loop?

The loop only needs to hold one wagon, on the plain track at the left hand end, when used as a Timesaver, and proper railway rules go out of the window. When operated as a "proper" railway, I wasn't intending to leave wagons on it. Would a rule banning the leaving of wagons on the loop mean the trap points aren't needed? Bearing in mind this is all pretty compressed, would dummy ones fit in?

 

I've thought of using the loop as the main line, but it's a very windy route compared to the smooth run through the rear line. I don't see how I can change that in the space available. (EDIT: Well I couldn't see it until an hour or so later!)

[BG John]

Or swap the branch for the shed road (so the branch is nearest the front.)

Which trashes the Timesaver!

[BG John]

Yes, I'd say it would be incorrect if the running line crossed both roads of the loop....

Hmmm, I shall ponder some further suggestions...

I'd be interested to hear what others say re best practice, but I'm sure RailWest is right re the catch points

 

I like the timesaver plan though - it's one I've often pondered adapting myself

I like your idea of a railcar / railbus passenger service too, and the cassettes each end to enable that

One thing I'd say though, be careful of the height of the landscape on the left hand end

 

If operating from the front, the rear cassette may be tricky to access, and if operating from the back, the front cassette may be tricky to access

Think I'd make sure the landscape rises higher - to enable easier access to the cassettes. It's easy to underestimate the clearance you need for best access

I mean, you may have to re-rail the odd item traversing the join etc

 

EDIT: I note that like me BG John, you dabble in several scales!

 

 

Unfortunately, incorrect looks better! But it does mean I don't need to buy a crossing, and add complications to track laying and wiring.

 

My original idea was for a train length fiddle yard at the back, with no external cassettes. What I'm thinking now is that the front cassette would be entirely off the baseboard, so easy to connect, and the rear one half off the board, but inserted in such a way that it slides along guides behind the backscene. Like this:

 

 

Red - 2ft cassettes

Green - Traverser for railbus & railcar

Yellow - Hidden siding for railbus or railcar

Blue - Hidden turnout

The front left cassette wouldn't normally be used, but while I'm at it I may as well make provision for it. The right hand cassette may also rarely be used, or there may normally just be a short one for a railcar/railbus. I can't really spare the space for an extra 2ft at each end, except on special occasions, but the layout may be located where I have easy access to the ends, so sliding the rear cassette in and out shouldn't be a problem. I'll test all this before doing the scenery though, and may make it so it can lift off.

 

Once upon a time it was just EM and P4 broad gauge, but Dapol's K&ESR Terrier screwed that up! I've never even considered that I would ever model in O gauge before, but always thought I might do something in O-16.5. The OO is something total unplanned, that just seemed like an easy way to get restarted after a long break, and now I've spent the money I want something to show for it!

[marc smith]

I know what you mean about incorrect looking better
I'm sure there are examples of the prototype being built "incorrectly" aplenty out there anyway
and besides, it's your railway etc etc.

Like the idea of the short hidden siding for the railbus too - an ideal use of short radius points, methinks
Will watch this one progress

Cheers again, and come on, get a move on - I want to see it complete lol

[BG John]

It's amazing what a bit of input from other people can do! The main line is now at the front, solving the problem.

 

- Swapped the Y from the right end of the loop and the right into the front sidings

- Replaced the curved point at the left end of the loop with the Y from the fiddle yard

- Replaced the Y in the fiddle yard with a spare left

 

 

That now means that the front sidings come off the main line, when in true Great Western style I think they should come off the loop and cross the main line! But I can't do anything about that, so will have to live with it. It certainly flows better now, and it looks as though I may not need the retaining wall along the back of the cutting.

 

That screws up my plans for the O-16.5 layout, as I now have to fit in a curved right instead of a straight left! But I'll worry about that another time, as it's some way down my To-Do list.

 

Here's the revised plan:

Does that look better?

[BG John]

What I've done so far:

 

Scalescenes old feebie goods shed, latest freebie coal office/weighbridge, and double track road bridge to span single track and platform. These are the first Scalescenes kits I've actually built, rather than knocking up bits of them as mock-ups.

 

Scalescenes Low Relief Factory. This will be have side walls added, when I know exactly what space is available, and I'll be adding the Boiler House to the left side, so the chimney will hide where it meets the backscene. Some of the new LCUT Creative platform canopies are on the way, to make a canopy over the platform (that I haven't made yet), and the siding.

[The Stationmaster]

It's amazing what a bit of input from other people can do! The main line is now at the front, solving the problem.

 

- Swapped the Y from the right end of the loop and the right into the front sidings

- Replaced the curved point at the left end of the loop with the Y from the fiddle yard

- Replaced the Y in the fiddle yard with a spare left

 

Thymleigh From Right End 2015-12-15.JPG

 

That now means that the front sidings come off the main line, when in true Great Western style I think they should come off the loop and cross the main line! But I can't do anything about that, so will have to live with it. It certainly flows better now, and it looks as though I may not need the retaining wall along the back of the cutting.

 

That screws up my plans for the O-16.5 layout, as I now have to fit in a curved right instead of a straight left! But I'll worry about that another time, as it's some way down my To-Do list.

 

Here's the revised plan:

Thymleigh Plan 2015-12-15.jpg

Does that look better?

Looks alright I think but I don't like the idea of sidings coming off the 'main' line to be honest (and neither did the GWR, think Moretonhampstead!) but the problem you obviously face is fitting it into the space available.  You're still going to need three trap points - one at each end of the loop plus one on the siding that comes off the main line (the 'headshunt' provides the trap for the other siding).

 

I would be inclined to keep the signalling very, very, simple and use ground frames to operate the running line connections as signalling it properly with half way correct signalling is going to look horribly over-signalled and create a forest of ground signals if nothing else

[BG John]

It looks as though the only place for the signal box is at the end of the platform. I don't think it will fit anywhere else. I'll probably use the small LCUT Creative one. It looks kind of Great Western, and I've got one.

[BG John]

Looks alright I think but I don't like the idea of sidings coming off the 'main' line to be honest (and neither did the GWR, think Moretonhampstead!) but the problem you obviously face is fitting it into the space available.  You're still going to need three trap points - one at each end of the loop plus one on the siding that comes off the main line (the 'headshunt' provides the trap for the other siding).

 

I would be inclined to keep the signalling very, very, simple and use ground frames to operate the running line connections as signalling it properly with half way correct signalling is going to look horribly over-signalled and create a forest of ground signals if nothing else

Like this?

 

 

I've lost a couple of inches in the platform, so it will need some more work, but it looks like it's possible. I think it still works properly as a Timesaver.

 

By "the siding that comes off the main line", do you mean the branch, that will have an intensive passenger service of railbuses shuttling back and forth to disrupt shunting?

[BG John]

Grrrrrrr! I haven't got enough left hand points to do that version, so I've just wasted ages trying to come up with a plan for what I have got, but it won't work! I suppose it's a shame to spoil it for the sake of £12, so maybe I'll buy another one. I'd like some opinions on the latest version. It looks right to me, but the loop is very full of points. It does however mean that there is only the right amount of plain track in the loop for the Timesaver.

 

I think it's time to lay it out full size, and see how it looks, and works.

[ColinK]

Have to say I really like the whole concept, still a timesaver but with far more operating and visual interest. Personally I wouldn't bother with trap points, but that's your decision.

 

Looking forward to seeing it progress.

[BG John]

Have to say I really like the whole concept, still a timesaver but with far more operating and visual interest. Personally I wouldn't bother with trap points, but that's your decision.

 

Looking forward to seeing it progress.

They won't be working ones, so I'd just stick a few bits of rail in the right place. I'd just like to know what I should do, so I can decide whether to do it or not.

[The Stationmaster]

Like this?

 

Thymleigh From Right End 2015-12-15 Alt.JPG

 

I've lost a couple of inches in the platform, so it will need some more work, but it looks like it's possible. I think it still works properly as a Timesaver.

 

By "the siding that comes off the main line", do you mean the branch, that will have an intensive passenger service of railbuses shuttling back and forth to disrupt shunting?

If that's the branch then all is well - ideal (and of course scrub that trap point as it's a passenger line) and now you only need two traps - one at each end of the loop.

 

Dummy traps would be ideal - only need to be single tongue of course on the Western in those days.

[BG John]

I've measured the stock that will run on the layout tonight, and adjusted the plan to fit:

 

Marked in yellow are the lengths required for the Timesaver, that have been set for my Bachmann Pannier and combination of longest wagons. Below is the Timesaver plan from the Shunting Puzzles web site, rotated to match my plan. Unless my brain is totally scrambled by trying to get the plan right, the crossing doesn't affect the working of the puzzle. Anywhere within the puzzle area that stock must not be placed is on a point. Marked in orange is the on baseboard location of the cassette. This can be removed during puzzling shunting to stop it being used, or a passenger train parked on it. The fiddle yard tracks, including a cassette that fits within the baseboard, and the platform, are all long enough to take my Lima GWR Railcar, and the much shorter Heljan Railbus. So as a shunting puzzle with added passenger trains, the baseboard is totally self-contained, and longer cassettes are only needed to run proper goods trains.

 

 

This is an aerial view:

 

View from the right hand end:

 

View from the left hand end:

 

Unless anyone has any further suggestions, the next step is to print out the plan full size, and check that the stock fits and all the clearances are OK. Even if I don't start tracklaying yet (I need to buy some bits first), I can get on with the buildings and the baseboard. I need an accurate size for the dairy buildings site before I do much more to it, that I can get from the full size plan. I'm rather engrossed in making buildings at the moment, so maybe they'll all be ready before I lay the track.

[BG John]

If that's the branch then all is well - ideal (and of course scrub that trap point as it's a passenger line) and now you only need two traps - one at each end of the loop.

 

Dummy traps would be ideal - only need to be single tongue of course on the Western in those days.

Thanks Mike. If the branch is on an incline down to the station, do I need any protection on it? I'm tempted to slope it to add a bit of interest.

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks Mike. If the branch is on an incline down to the station, do I need any protection on it? I'm tempted to slope it to add a bit of interest.

Ah - now there's an interesting one.  If the gradient is steeper than 1 in 260 you need a runaway catch point to protect the junction from anything that breaks away going up the incline away from the station but that also needs a sand drag (ideally).  So the sand drag needs to be long enough to protect the junction - the one at Abercynon was very long so you could perhaps emulate that and just have the sand drag.  The way it would be constructed is almost like interlaced tracks with two rails laid at the running gauge, on just out of the four foot and the other in it and with their sides boxed with timber to hold the sand; the point would be some way away so no need to model that but the sand drag might be interesting as 'something out of the ordinary'.

[BG John]

The branch will now be on the level!

[BG John]

Thanks everyone. I've built the baseboard, printed out a full size track plan, stuck Peco templates to it, and plonked the buildings I've made so far on it. The only slightly tight spot is the Timesaver position for two wagons on the loop, where the two longest wagons have to slightly foul the point to the dairy siding to clear the main line. I may be able to extend the loop a bit, but otherwise I can live with it. I'm just about to order the extra track and other bits I need, so hopefully will have everything in time to start tracklaying over Christmas.

 

 

 

 

I need to do some work on the scenery at the fiddle yard end, as it doesn't look as though a road overbridge on the rear line will work, so it may have to be two tunnels. I'll experiment with it while I'm waiting for the materials to arrive, as I may be able to realign the tracks a bit to help.

 

I'll start a new topic soon, and add a link to it here.

 

If my Lima Railcar still works, does anyone have a body in BR livery they want to swap for the GWR one? It looks a bit out of place at the moment.

[BG John]

Things are happening, but I haven't got round to writing about it yet. There are photos being taken for when I do.

[john flann]

BG John, because of your comment and kind remark about Poppy Hollow I looked you up and found this; have you seen my "Timesaver" (altough I dislike the term) Hintock Town Quay. Some good pictures there and a few posts back and ealier.

 

See link below.

[Pacific231G]

I take it everyone spotted long ago that Ashburton's track plan is, siding capacities and the engine shed road apart, effectively the same as John Allen's Timesaver. From all accounts on market days with a lot of cattle wagons involved it was equally prone to getting snarled up.