SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations - 3D Printed Loco Kits etc Various Scales

[Knuckles]

E1 with tender comes after.

E1 work already quite the way through but no updates for ye yet. Will have interchangeable cabs n stuff for the Cambrian Small Passenger Class too. First being Albion.

 

EDIT: Please look on previous page. There is an update and I need your collective on a serious question.

Edited October 15, 2016 by Knuckles

[ChrisN]

Hi,

I am not sure which question exactly but if it was the one about bushes then I would say whatever is easier for you, if it is straightforward to make it a fixed axle.  Remember though I do not regularly build locos.

 

On the Albion, firstly there is a brass kit being produced soon, but having said that I always feel more comfortable with plastic, and I think Edwardian does as well.  Secondly, in what condition?  Some, (all?) were rebuilt over a period.  It makes no difference to me as both types were running in 1895.  Also I cannot remember if the 4 wheel tenders were used on other locos..( Something I should know, read two weeks ago and have now forgotten.)  If so, and I think they were that would be very useful.

[Edwardian]

Hi,

I am not sure which question exactly but if it was the one about bushes then I would say whatever is easier for you, if it is straightforward to make it a fixed axle.  Remember though I do not regularly build locos.

 

On the Albion, firstly there is a brass kit being produced soon, but having said that I always feel more comfortable with plastic, and I think Edwardian does as well.  Secondly, in what condition?  Some, (all?) were rebuilt over a period.  It makes no difference to me as both types were running in 1895.  Also I cannot remember if the 4 wheel tenders were used on other locos..( Something I should know, read two weeks ago and have now forgotten.)  If so, and I think they were that would be very useful.

 

I'd love to model both the Cambrian and the Furness in due course.  I hope to live long enough to do so and to master brass kits!

 

But, yes, I would feel happiest giving this medium a go first.  As the first SS 2-4-0 would be for a freelance Line, I can be flexible as to the version/detail.

[Knuckles]

Hi,

I am not sure which question exactly but if it was the one about bushes then I would say whatever is easier for you, if it is straightforward to make it a fixed axle. Remember though I do not regularly build locos.

 

On the Albion, firstly there is a brass kit being produced soon, but having said that I always feel more comfortable with plastic, and I think Edwardian does as well. Secondly, in what condition? Some, (all?) were rebuilt over a period. It makes no difference to me as both types were running in 1895. Also I cannot remember if the 4 wheel tenders were used on other locos..( Something I should know, read two weeks ago and have now forgotten.) If so, and I think they were that would be very useful.

I found out Camkits were producing the Albion half way through starting mine. My main aim is to make things not available but Sods (or Murphys'!) law would have to come into play at some point I suppose. Maybe the choice will be seen as a good thing.

 

I have already designed different chimneys, cab types and 3 different splashers, although you could make a 4th by cutting the rivets off. The idea is to do one kit that will cater for most of them. The larger boilered engines would have to be different though but no plans for that yet.

 

With the bushes to try to clarify - on the J1 model, the 3D printed holes that I put the 1/8th bushes into I filed downwards only about 1mm and then inserted the bush loose. The top acting pick ups provide the springing downwards as well as the electric collection and it is ridin' much better this way. So what I am thinking is to redesign the chassis holes on everything with parallel ovals instead as standard to make it easier for those wanting to do similar. If you want any of the axles fixed then glue as normal in the top most (original) position. I'm just after a collective opinion if this would be a good idea and would help people. Between axles I could easily add some holes in the CAD for compensation fulcrum pivots too. If unwanted a dab of filler would hide it.

 

Got lots of experiments and plans in the works but the more views about these thing the better. Basically we can help each other hopefully as one of the goals is to get chassis up and running easily for people, springing or compensation added easily is the other goal.

 

Too many people are put off by traditional methods as you both expressed so if I can refine all this to make it easy and reliable all good.

 

Note - thinking of making backheads in the kits as a 'glue in' from now on. Painting them already fitted is awkward.

Edited October 15, 2016 by Knuckles

[JCL]

Hi Knuckles, I'm afraid I can't help with the bushes but I hear where you are coming from. I've done a few GNR locos now and I've tried to keep to examples that aren't available elsewhere. This is why I have a G1 4-4-0, Ivatt Single 4-2-2 and a test B3 2-2-2, but no D3 which is already available in brass, or Stirling Single - this one for obvious reasons.

 

With regards to the G1 I did have a brief conversation with a kit designer who has had one in the works for a number of years, we came to the conclusion, as you have, that someone who enjoys making brass kits probably wouldn't go for a 3D printed loco as there isn't the same challenge, and vice versa for people who prefer plastic.

 

I don't want to sound like a broken record, but I think your models are lovely. (Probably the only context I can write that without getting a bat around the ear from my wife haha )

[Knuckles]

Very much liking your loco's too. Might have a go at one one day, although it wouldn't be soon as I'm up to the eyeballs in my own stuff at the moment!

 

I'll await to see if any others have views on the bush query.

[ChrisN]

Hi,

It is interesting that you will have at least 3 sets of parts to make variants.  I will not say how many I need but it seems that at the time of my layout they pulled all of the passenger trains so a second 4-4-0 may be further away than I first thought. I will need to check sometime but I may need one with a larger boiler.  It might be that once I have got to grips with brass as I need to make coaches I might have a go with a brass loco, but from what I have seen the boiler at least is not brass.  However, as I have never built a loco before, and am finding our as I scratchbuild a coach for the first time it is easier to do things you know and extend your ability from that than to try and do something completely different.  Great fun and great learning but a do not want to end up with a poorly soldered lump of brass that does not even run properly.  I will get a fleet of plastic ones first I think.

 

The bushes sound like a good idea.  Question.  If the springiness is supplied by the electrical pick up which sounds good I assume then that if you go for radio control then the axel will need to be fixed, or the pickup could be there and not connected?

 

Separate backheads is not a problem.  I really need to get on and start your loco, it is all coaches at the moment.  So much to do and so little time.

[Knuckles]

Hello.

 

I could and might do a larger boiler E1 as it would technically be a variant and probably a few days work. I think I have a track record of variants but will do the standard one first and see how things go.

 

With the oval bearing/bush hole idea, if I go ahead with it then it isn't a full solution. It wouldn't by some be considered a proper solution but it would at least provide an easy way to add some basic springing or slop as on some RTR models. This is the only chassis I tried it on but it now has gone from Meh to Good running on my layout.

 

Regarding your fear of having a soldered lump that is probably good pounded into ballast or weight - I hear you.

 

This is exactly what I am trying to pander to and make easier for people. If my chassis can be easily built and set up compared to the traditional ways then I have achieved one of my aims. You may have seen my series showing one way go go about things so I hope they help.

 

What I will say and stress though is this; whether building one of my chassis or a brass one - locomotive kit building and railway modelling in general as I'm sure you know is an art form with many mediums requiring many years to master.

 

I have a lot to learn and with chassis building I still yet struggle in certain ways. Putting AG wheels on square and removing them without buggering them up I still struggle with a lot. Since getting the G W Models wheels press and quarterijg jig plus wheel puller has helped but I still knacker up the odd wheel set so I usually order spares now.

 

Both brass kits and my own kits that I have built I have achieved good running but not yet in the perfect range. Probably 90-95%.

 

I find the bane of railway modelling is EVERYTHING has go be in combination for it all to run perfectly. Nock one thing out and it can drag the rest down.

 

Having a sprung or compensated chassis or even a bit of downwards play in certain axles can help with better running and these trials I am doing seem pretty good.

 

One of my ambitions is to have easy to set up chassis with a fully comprehensive spring or compensated option already built in as an option so if wanted it is easy to set up but also easy to avoid if not wanted and easy to mod to another system. Having ovals isn't this but I think it might be a good start. As already said if you glue bushes at top most point it would be like normal fixed chassis.

 

To be realistic, whether building my chassis or an etched kit if you have never done it before then like anything some balls ups and pigs ears along the way are possible, we all want it easy but we have to practice to make perfect. I'm not perfect yet but getting better.

 

Top acting wiper pickups are just an option. I prefer them that way but not always viable.

 

If going radio control then you don't need pickups and springing would be better done in a different way to reduce friction. Once they sort out the DCC style functions of sound and smoke I may have a go at RC control. Having the axle fixed or not is purely a matter of running characteristics and does not matter if DC or DCC or RC.

 

One of the advantages is you need no wiring for the track work as you have batteries instead. This means less Mr Hand poking an engine to move! Also if you have a DC or DCC layout you can still use RC loco's on the layout has the powered track makes no difference so converting can be done a lot slower with an existing layout and if an engine is too small to add all the gubbins then just keep it as Dc or DCC. Easy.

[Mikkel]

That J1 is great, almost enough to tempt me away from the green wet and rusty (which says a lot). 

 

I'm not really qualified to comment on the bushes idea either, but as Chris says I really appreciate what you are trying to do here in terms of making chassis construction simple. 

 

The E1 sounds interesting. I'm mainly a 4mm modeller myself but is it maybe worth considering a 7mm version, to give people something manageable to go with the Dapol Terrier?

[Knuckles]

That J1 is great, almost enough to tempt me away from the green wet and rusty (which says a lot).

 

I'm not really qualified to comment on the bushes idea either, but as Chris says I really appreciate what you are trying to do here in terms of making chassis construction simple.

 

The E1 sounds interesting. I'm mainly a 4mm modeller myself but is it maybe worth considering a 7mm version, to give people something manageable to go with the Dapol Terrier?

Can't wait until the J1 is completed that's all I can say. Making my own transfers is a hurdle though as I want to line it properly this time rather than just using plain black.

 

Thanks too.

 

Any of the loco's I design can be rescaled. Once done wall thicknesses and bush holes etc will need tweaking but it isn't a super sized job. 2 seconds to rescale and then some remedial work afterwards.

 

I'll rescale something if there is demand but only if the person/s requesting it are sure to buy it because I'm a bit fed up of doing tweaks on request only for them to then change their mind. Isn't right or fair.

 

I don't know what the price would be until uploaded though as Shapeways' computer gives you stat's on each upload. I sometimes do a dummy upload to get an idea but after thickening walls it can go up.

 

I'd need information such as your chosen back go back settings, frame width choices etc but other than that easy enough.

 

 

EDIT: Just seen the Honourable Slipper Boy in your blogs. Was it you who wrote it?

I still have it printed in the BRM and really enjoyed the comic strip style. Damn good modelling too, truly a work of art oozing old style atmosphere. Can almost imagine Bill Sykes and Bullseye waltzing around the corner with a bent hat.

 

EDIT 2: Ok, now a fan of your work. Everything I have seen thus far is really top notch modelling. Being a pre groupie fan that appeals oodles too.

 

I like BR but get bored of everyone modelling it, especially the ECML.

Edited October 16, 2016 by Knuckles

[Mikkel]

Thanks Knuckles, the stories are fun to do but arranging the figures takes ages. You don't want to be around when I've just spent 15 minutes arranging a scene and one of them falls over causing a domino effect 

 

The E1 re-scaling was just a thought. I understand why you wouldn't want to put in a lot of work on that without being certain of having anyone buy it. I'm only now beginning to understand how big a problem that can be, see eg: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/78865-rmweb-commission-hunslet-austerity-through-djmodels/?p=2462727

Edited October 16, 2016 by Mikkel

[Knuckles]

Thanks Knuckles, the stories are fun to do but arranging the figures takes ages. You don't want to be around when I've just spent 15 minutes arranging a scene and one of them falls over causing a domino effect 

 

The E1 re-scaling was just a thought. I understand why you wouldn't want to put in a lot of work on that without being certain of having anyone buy it. I'm only now beginning to understand how big a problem that can be, see eg: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/78865-rmweb-commission-hunslet-austerity-through-djmodels/?p=2462727

 

 

I'll have a look at the link.

 

Regarding setting scenes up I know the frustrations only too well.  Have a look at some of my earlier stuff...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXrxKpjlX4I !

[NeilHB]

I'll stick my name down for a J1 and an E1 in 7mm please Gavin - they will look lovely on Elsbridge Wharf!

Must say the J1 looks the bees knees - almost wish I'd not got rid of my 4mm stuff now...

[Knuckles]

I'll stick my name down for a J1 and an E1 in 7mm please Gavin - they will look lovely on Elsbridge Wharf!

Must say the J1 looks the bees knees - almost wish I'd not got rid of my 4mm stuff now...

 

If you can guarantee you'd get them then I'll start work on them once  these 4mm ones are finalised, I just don't want to waste time as I have done a few times before.  Hope you understand.  If we go along with it at the appointed time (some time after when this 4mm stuff is done) then I'll need some technical details such as back to back settings, nominal wheel thicknesses, desired frame widths, bush hole sizes and etcetera's to make sure it all fits nicely as like 4mm, 7mm has several options too.

 

As above I don't know what the price would be until it is completed due to changed wall thicknesses and things but a dummy price check can give an idea beforehand.

 

I model in both P4 and 00 and have done a couple of wagons in 7mm so if possible at some point I'd like to do at least some form of 7mm modelling properly. Can't decide standard though!

[Knuckles]

Ok, well I've been having a play. What I am showing you doesn't mean it will be made but I might try it as these are preliminary improvements and trials.

 

The first picture shows the front leading wheel holes opened out downwards Also the frame has been pulled upward at the front for added strength when/if the hornblock space is cut out. The rear can't have it due to the body though.

The driving axles have been given downward ovals now as I was thinking and the same applies.

The second picture however is another idea. I must stress I am not making my own plastic hornblocks. I trialed that with both WSF and FUD in the earlier days before I let everyone know what I was up to with SCC. Thought I'd try it though and know exactly what could and couldn't be done with the materials. Reason as expected was due to friction and filing for a smooth slide made everything too loose, so the idea was shelved in favour of fitting proper brass ones.

 

What you see here is the rectangular holes for brass hornblocks 100% cut out read and optional non horn block fillers added. The slide rails are not so they can slide up and down freely as already stated (it doesn't work in these materials) but it is simply for accurate locating and a twist resistor. The top sections are simply half curves for the bushes and the bottom sections are the same only you will notice it protrudes upwards 1mm so when in place it will be an oval. Alternative bottoms have also been done where it a makes a complete circle.

 

If I was to trial this and release it then maybe have a different shop section called Sprung Chassis or something.

 

If it works then this latter version would give the option of fixed or oval axles and a space already cut out for brass hornblocks from the off, and either way you look at it you could get the wheels out a 100 times easier. Just would need a small retainer making. I was going to bore holes in for rod but we got the printing tolerance issue stopping it so a bit of scrap etch lightly tack glued I'm sure would work wonders.

Let me know what you think, worth trying out me thinks.

3rd picture shows the cylinder covers already integrated. The 00 ones will have to have the sides chopped sadly but what can you do? Got a P4 one in the post to plug into this prototype J1 chassis anyway.

[Penrhos1920]

Knuckles thanks for posting your J1; it has inspired me to continue with my locos.  I'd given up after getting a couple bodies FUD printed that required too much clean up.  I have a few questions / helpful ideas:

 

1) have you tried putting a 45° chamfer on the visable edges so that the wall thickness are less obvious?  I've used 0.3mm as the wall thickness at the edge with a 45° chamfer to a 1mm wall in FUD which works well.

 

 

2) For my loco roof I made it 1mm thick in general but again 0.3mm for the visible lip.

 

 

3) I've not done a chassis yet as I had been looking at modifying a RTR or brass chassis.  Is WSF rigid enough?  How thick are the frames?  I've quickly sketched basic chassis and think that 1.5mm would work in OO.

 

4) Have you considered doing a FUD detailing set for a chassis comprising the brake gear etc?

 

5) How thick are the coal rails?  I'd intended to etch them, but what you've printed looks great.  There are some people, like JSW, who would have you cut them off and fit an etch.  But I think most people who modify plastic kits would prefer to either keep them as they are or would be prepared to make them out of styrene.

[Knuckles]

Hello.

I have in a way shamferd some areas of other engines but most if not all examples so far have had cab beading so not really as easy.

 

The cab roof mod is a good idea but I see a few issues that put me off. You would have to glue the roof down, then use filler for the join and then paint the bottom of the roof body colour for it to all blend in properly. Seems a bit of a faff go me and you would also have to model the cab a bit wrong to account for the roof posing as part of the cab...if you get me. Easier to just replace with thin brass or styrene if the supplied one doesn't appeal.

 

Frame thicknesses vary depending on model and gauge but most are 2mm thick. Some 1.8 and towards the rear on some 00 versions they go down to 1mm to allow for drive gubbins. On a lot of models optional frame thickeners are also supplied but I haven't felt the need to use them. WSF does flex a bit as the F in the name suggests. It is strong and generally hard but it is also flexible to a certain degree. I've been getting by just fine but if you want a more solid rigid chassis then FUD is

Better.

I haven't considered doing a detailing set because most the chassis have the brake rigging added too. I decided to discontinue for future designs doing the brake rigging as a 3DP because it all too easily can cause print and order cancellations and it seems that 90% of people would rather use some brass rod anyway. Cobbling up brake rigging is easy. Using the 3DP rigging is easier and quicker but it is rather obese too and crude due to needed thickness.

 

Coal rail thicknesses I don't know off my head but when on computer next (typing on 'phone here) I'll measure them and let you know.

 

Thanks for the input.

 

Regarding my potential chassis tweaks any ideas peoples? Would like advice here as I think I'll try it. For the oval option with loose bushes any worry about potential wear can be cured by having brass replacement inserts as another option, possibly in spares section.

Edited October 16, 2016 by Knuckles

[Knuckles]

I had a play about spruing together some 'Hornguide Fillers' as I call them. Spruing sadly is essential as Shapeways' only allow metal products to contain 2 items per file and as this idea I am trying takes 8 parts per axle they need to be sprued.

 

What is strange is the Steel versions are a lot cheaper than the brass! Would this wear out the bush though? I doubt it would enough to be a bother, using the cheaper non metal materials would likely be fine but if you are worried about wear this could be an option.

 

Will finish the P4 chassis revise off and have a go. Pretty exited I am.

 

Think I'll order some steel and wsf ones and see how we get on. If it all works out plan is to do new chassis (or revise old ones) with the fillers in the same file and then metal ones or replacements can be brought on the side as options.

 

So far oval ones have been made and also circular ones for fixed axles. Might do a third option where the centre point is moved to account for both up and down movement although there would have to be used with a proper form of compensation or springing.

 

How much up or down movement would be required? Thinking 0.7 up and same down? So 1.4 in total or maybe just .5 each way so 1mm in total?  1mm each way thus 2mm?

 

I understand this is a matter of choice so custom tweaks could easily be done on request but it would be good to start with a fixed ideal.

Edited October 17, 2016 by Knuckles

[sjgardiner]

Congrats on the Designer Spotlight Knuckles, nice to see some model railroading work get some love from Shapeways PR instead of all the other things people do!

 

Stephen

[Knuckles]

Haven't seen it yet!

 

Will have a look.

Edit: Ok seen - cool.

 

Edit 2: The link...

 

http://www.shapeways.com/blog/archives/27523-designer-spotlight-gavin-rose-sparkshot-custom-creations.html

Edited October 19, 2016 by Knuckles

[Knuckles]

Ok the latest Sit' Rep' is I have ordered a new revised J1 chassis in P4 both a WSF one and a FUD one. The revised kit comes with a set of Fixed Circular bearing retainers as standard. The spares and optional sets created will do enough for 6 axles so as they are added into the file you get spares with the J1. The rear axle however has a bearing retainer already fixed in position becasue cutting out a hornblock for that will risk the chassis seeing as that roof part of the frame is so thin. It couldn't be raised unless you want it poking through to the crew. Maybe something here could be done for springing but it is unlikely. The bottom of the front hornguide area has a strength strip to prevent warping the print when curing so this will carefully need cutting off.

Also I ordered some of the downward slop/springing bearing retainers in polished bronze steel. As I ordered both a WSF and FUD chassis I'll be getting two sets of fixed retainers, one set for each material, plus the metal downward ones. I'll order the sprung ones later as I just want to do some basic tests first such as adding and removing the different retainers with the different materials and see how they behave, how much extra tweaking may be needed, how easy and accurately the axles can be removed and replaced etc.

As I will have two more chassis once tested I can dedicate one for the downward method that I worked into the prototype fixed one and the second new chassis I will try some other methods.

Was going to show you this picture from Photobucket like usual but am getting a 404 error so it is attached instead. The leaf springs are in the file but not sprued to the body, instead wire will need to be added as the hangars and fitted into the frame underside. Easy enough and also easier as you don't have to cut them off and reposition them unless maybe you want to get the axles out, in which case lightly tacking them in place shouldn't be too hard to remove, and they could if setup right function as the retainers themselves - bonus.

The leaf springs, bearing carriers, radial (& pony) arms are all loose. Frame spacer is sprued to the side as usual.  Cylinder covers at the front added too.

I don't know about you but it looks like some elaborate lazer rifle or a spaceship.

Edited October 20, 2016 by Knuckles

[JCL]

I'm finding this very interesting. You've got quite a lot of different concepts in there, and an awful lot of detail. I've been putting my brake shoes on a sprue so that they can be added after the wheels have gone in. Do you find that putting them in place on the print causes any problems?

[Knuckles]

Nope, I leave a gnats fart clearance for the flange, usually about 0.3 or more and then the distance between the tyres are ok, the slightest bend or pad filing can be added if needed but I've never needed to. 

[NeilHB]

If you can guarantee you'd get them then I'll start work on them once  these 4mm ones are finalised, I just don't want to waste time as I have done a few times before.  Hope you understand.  If we go along with it at the appointed time (some time after when this 4mm stuff is done) then I'll need some technical details such as back to back settings, nominal wheel thicknesses, desired frame widths, bush hole sizes and etcetera's to make sure it all fits nicely as like 4mm, 7mm has several options too.

 

As above I don't know what the price would be until it is completed due to changed wall thicknesses and things but a dummy price check can give an idea beforehand.

 

I model in both P4 and 00 and have done a couple of wagons in 7mm so if possible at some point I'd like to do at least some form of 7mm modelling properly. Can't decide standard though!

 

 

Hi Knuckles, 

Sorry for the late reply, it's been a bit of a hectic week!

I definitely want one of each please,  but there is no rush to re-size them, as you've seen on the Elsbridge Wharf thread I have quite a few projects ongoing at the moment. 

Regarding standards etc. - I'd recommend you take a nosey at this link: http://www.gauge0guild.com/manual/01_1_Standards.pdf  -this is the Gauge 0 Guild handbook on standards (page 1-1-4 is the one you want for wheel and frame standards. Bush size wise, I'd be using Slater's wheels which have a 3/16" axle - the usual thing in 7mm is to have the axle hole a few mm undersize, then the builder can ream it out to their own size and spec. 

I've found it easier to stick with fine scale in 7mm (32mm gauge), scale 7 was too much hassle for me given the amount of stock that I've got. 

[Knuckles]

Thanks.

 

I'll likely be pestering you closer the time for more information but no worries.

I usually make the axle holes smaller as you described so once reamed out the bushes (why we all call them bearings?) can be inserted snug as a bug.

 

If this new chassis design concept works out would you be interested in it being used for a 7mm version also?

Edited October 21, 2016 by Knuckles