Ellesmere

[gismorail]

It was good to see you at the Liverpool show over the weekend enjoyed our chat about future layouts and as usual enjoyed the scene at Ellesmere Station in all it's glory......   It's one of those layouts that one notices something new each time it is viewed. 

Edited April 23, 2018 by gismorail

[44690]

2239 needs a little bit more than lamps and crew. Without checking against my list, balance weights, vacuum pipes, screw link coupling on the front buffer beam and fallplate come to mind.

 

The weathering needs a little more attention too. Pleased with how it's turned out though. Now where did I put that coach you wanted doing???

 

Ian

[rhyd-y-clafdy]

Apologies to anyone who was hoping to see us at Aylesbury Railex.  Unfortunately, we've had to cancel at the last minute! Our next exhibition is currently Warley at the NEC in November.

[rhyd-y-clafdy]

 

However, we have finished the Mess van which we saw in a photo taken when it was parked at Ellesmere in 1961. It was presumably there when the Elson Road bridge at the west end of the station was being strengthened.  It belonged to the Oswestry Division Bridge Department which was based at Caersws near Newtown. The model is a modified Ratio GWR 4 wheeler. Transfers were produced by Railtec and the end detail and painting were done by Ian Chapman. The roof still needs sticking on and it still lacks screw couplings.  Plenty of time to do that now!

 

[44690]

What a cruel close up picture that is. It looks better "in the flesh". It will look good parked up in the siding.

 

Ian

[44690]

Phil's superb Ellesmere layout features in the BRM June digital edition. 

[Fingers]

Having decided to rekindle the thought of a model railway (in 2mm as you can get more in less space!) I was trying to find a "real" location and came across Ellesmere, which fits the bill quite well. Having found a 1920's 25 inch map showing the track layout, it was surprising the differences in pictures in the 1950/60's. After much practice with Templot have managed to come up with a reasonable incarnation of the layout but am stuck on one thing. THere re three exits from sidings onto the main line and from the maps and photographs there do not appear to be any trap points at all. Your layout has no traps from the two sidings behind the signal box but has a single blade trap at the exit from the main yard. Can anyone confirm whether there was a trap here or not. As an old P.Way engineer I'd have expected to see one but for whatever reason there mightn't have been one.

 

Look forward to the views of the audience!

 

[rhyd-y-clafdy]

Having decided to rekindle the thought of a model railway (in 2mm as you can get more in less space!) I was trying to find a "real" location and came across Ellesmere, which fits the bill quite well. Having found a 1920's 25 inch map showing the track layout, it was surprising the differences in pictures in the 1950/60's. After much practice with Templot have managed to come up with a reasonable incarnation of the layout but am stuck on one thing. THere re three exits from sidings onto the main line and from the maps and photographs there do not appear to be any trap points at all. Your layout has no traps from the two sidings behind the signal box but has a single blade trap at the exit from the main yard. Can anyone confirm whether there was a trap here or not. As an old P.Way engineer I'd have expected to see one but for whatever reason there mightn't have been one.

 

Look forward to the views of the audience!

 

Hi

The track plan I have used is from the late 1950s after the turntable was taken out. Earlier plans do show different access to the goods yard but photos from the late 50s/60s clearly show just the one point accessing the yard from the down line and protected by the trap point with a ground signal.  On the up side the two sidings come off a headshunt/refuge siding which continues under Grange Road bridge. It isn't double track although it appears that way. One thing that has bothered me is that I can't see any ground signals controlling movements from the headhunt back onto the up running line although arlier photos show a 2 arm shunt signal. I have put a double ground signal in on my layout!

 

Ellesmere model railway club had an old 2mm model of Ellesmere but I am not sure where they are up to with it after it suffered some damage a while ago.

 

Derek Lowe's book on the Cambrian Main lIne has some useful views of Ellesmere.

 

Hope that helps and I am glad to answer any questions you may have

 

Cheers

 

Phil

[Fingers]

Hi

The track plan I have used is from the late 1950s after the turntable was taken out. Earlier plans do show different access to the goods yard but photos from the late 50s/60s clearly show just the one point accessing the yard from the down line and protected by the trap point with a ground signal.  On the up side the two sidings come off a headshunt/refuge siding which continues under Grange Road bridge. It isn't double track although it appears that way. One thing that has bothered me is that I can't see any ground signals controlling movements from the headhunt back onto the up running line although arlier photos show a 2 arm shunt signal. I have put a double ground signal in on my layout!

 

Ellesmere model railway club had an old 2mm model of Ellesmere but I am not sure where they are up to with it after it suffered some damage a while ago.

 

Derek Lowe's book on the Cambrian Main lIne has some useful views of Ellesmere.

 

Hope that helps and I am glad to answer any questions you may have

 

Cheers

 

Phil

 

Phil,

 

Many thanks for the reply, it just goes to show how one shouldn't presume! I thought layout was double track from the Wrexham/Welshpool junction toward Whitchurch, it never occurred that it was in fact single. Nicely explains lack of traps to the sidings behind the box 

 

Have spent an enjoyable evening with Templot doing the required changes - oh the joy! Now just have to build baseboards and lay some track!

 

Will also try to get hold of a copy of the book for additional pictures. Have also mentioned a possible weekend away to the management to look at the old station building, fingers firmly crossed!

 

Thanks for the offer of help, hopefully you won't regret the offer!

 

Cheers,

 

Paul

[rhyd-y-clafdy]

Phil,

 

Many thanks for the reply, it just goes to show how one shouldn't presume! I thought layout was double track from the Wrexham/Welshpool junction toward Whitchurch, it never occurred that it was in fact single. Nicely explains lack of traps to the sidings behind the box 

 

Have spent an enjoyable evening with Templot doing the required changes - oh the joy! Now just have to build baseboards and lay some track!

 

Will also try to get hold of a copy of the book for additional pictures. Have also mentioned a possible weekend away to the management to look at the old station building, fingers firmly crossed!

 

Thanks for the offer of help, hopefully you won't regret the offer!

 

Cheers,

 

Paul

 

Hi Paul

 

I passed through Ellesmere a couple of weeks ago.  The site is owned by Fulwoods and it appears to be surrounded by new security fencing so access at a weekend may not be possible (Maybe a Saturday if Fulwoods are open). I assume the gates will be open during the week and you might be able to get in (I never got chased off!). Otherwise the Elson Road bridge provides a vantage point.

 

The Vic Rogers and Keith Mitchell book - Oswestry to Whitchurch is also useful. Have you tried the Disused Stations website on t'interweb? And Google images will throw up so pics as well.

 

 

Phil

[Fingers]

Hi Paul

 

I passed through Ellesmere a couple of weeks ago.  The site is owned by Fulwoods and it appears to be surrounded by new security fencing so access at a weekend may not be possible (Maybe a Saturday if Fulwoods are open). I assume the gates will be open during the week and you might be able to get in (I never got chased off!). Otherwise the Elson Road bridge provides a vantage point.

 

The Vic Rogers and Keith Mitchell book - Oswestry to Whitchurch is also useful. Have you tried the Disused Stations website on t'interweb? And Google images will throw up so pics as well.

 

 

Phil

 

Phil,

 

Yes indeed, have been trawling any information I can come across, it's surprising how much is out there. But, I think I'll have problems finding details for other railway buildings.

 

Looking at the working timetable, it was interesting to see a couple of freight trains to "Elson Sidings" but I've had difficulty working out exactly where they were. Looking at the 25 inch map my money is on what seems to be an industrial building on the Welshpool line just around what looks like an abandoned triangle. As a local, is this right and do you know what was produced there? Looking at current Google maps the buildings seem to be in process of reclamation by nature. It'll give me some idea of the sort of freight traffic one would have expected to see.

 

Paul

[44690]

Phil,

 

Yes indeed, have been trawling any information I can come across, it's surprising how much is out there. But, I think I'll have problems finding details for other railway buildings.

 

Looking at the working timetable, it was interesting to see a couple of freight trains to "Elson Sidings" but I've had difficulty working out exactly where they were. Looking at the 25 inch map my money is on what seems to be an industrial building on the Welshpool line just around what looks like an abandoned triangle. As a local, is this right and do you know what was produced there? Looking at current Google maps the buildings seem to be in process of reclamation by nature. It'll give me some idea of the sort of freight traffic one would have expected to see.

 

Paul

 

Hi Paul,

 

Phil is on holiday for a week but I'm sure he'll reply on his return.

 

Ian

[Fat Controller]

Forgive me for joining in. During WW2, Elson had been home to a factory making all sorts of fabric goods for the Forces. Apparently, they also supplied some to the USSR, and the Russians had personnel based there. My source was a piece on the BBC site that dealt with eye-witness accounts of the 'Home Front'- I just Googled 'Elson' and went from there.

I had hoped these had been 'Molar Products' factory, but that was nearer Wrexham; into the 1980s, they received wagon-loads of china clay to make false teeth...

Elson had also been the site of a fatal rail accident in 1954; looks as though it was due to a crane overbalancing.

[Fingers]

Forgive me for joining in. During WW2, Elson had been home to a factory making all sorts of fabric goods for the Forces. Apparently, they also supplied some to the USSR, and the Russians had personnel based there. My source was a piece on the BBC site that dealt with eye-witness accounts of the 'Home Front'- I just Googled 'Elson' and went from there.

I had hoped these had been 'Molar Products' factory, but that was nearer Wrexham; into the 1980s, they received wagon-loads of china clay to make false teeth...

Elson had also been the site of a fatal rail accident in 1954; looks as though it was due to a crane overbalancing.

 

Mmm, had a couple of minutes to look and the best I could find was that Elson Halt was closed during the war because of an army depot nearby. I came across the fatal accident and some photographs, which were interesting because the crane in question was a road crane and was being recovered by the railway breakdown crane! Trying to decipher the photographs, it seemed as though the road crane was loading a skip with bricks. You can see location is where two tracks joint into single line with trap (or lifted connection beyond) Curious why a road crane would have been where it was as no roads nearby, and loaded with bricks (demolition of signal box, P.Way cabin, platform? Link to photographs - http://search.digido.org.uk/?id=llgc-id%3a1467992&query=elson&query_type=full_text&page=1&img_id=4

 

Haven't come across anything on the fabric goods as yet but it'll not help those in charge saying it was an army depot! Must dig a little further while waiting for Phil to return from holiday.

[rhyd-y-clafdy]

Hi Paul and Brian

 

I have pondered over Elson Siding. I thought like you that it was off the Oswestry line at the west junction of the triangle.  But the triangle was taken out of use a long time ago whereas the WTT shows a morning and afternoon 'pilot' shunt to Elson Siding as late as 1962.  Having just googled Elson I noticed a reference to a wharf and siding for Elson Brick Works (Duddleston Road) in the National Archive.  Don't know what that was or when! I did wonder about including the moves in my operating sequence but decided it was a complication too far for my operators. As far as I know the loco propelled the vehicles with a brake van at the front. I planned to send a couple of vans in the morning and bring them back in the afternoon.

 

As far as buildings are concerned - I based my Goods shed on the ones at Bettisfield and Llanfyllin which were very similar and are still standing.  My signal box is adapted from measurements and brick counts of Pwllheli box and photos of Ellesmere box.  The stable and weigh office are based on the photos in Derek Lowe's book (not always easy to count bricks from a black and white photo!) whilst everything else is guesswork.  I think my Up platform shelter is a bit on the small side in retrospect.

 

Hope that's useful.

 

Phil

[Fat Controller]

Mmm, had a couple of minutes to look and the best I could find was that Elson Halt was closed during the war because of an army depot nearby. I came across the fatal accident and some photographs, which were interesting because the crane in question was a road crane and was being recovered by the railway breakdown crane! Trying to decipher the photographs, it seemed as though the road crane was loading a skip with bricks. You can see location is where two tracks joint into single line with trap (or lifted connection beyond) Curious why a road crane would have been where it was as no roads nearby, and loaded with bricks (demolition of signal box, P.Way cabin, platform? Link to photographs - http://search.digido.org.uk/?id=llgc-id%3a1467992&query=elson&query_type=full_text&page=1&img_id=4

 

Haven't come across anything on the fabric goods as yet but it'll not help those in charge saying it was an army depot! Must dig a little further while waiting for Phil to return from holiday.

The establishment making, and repairing, fabric goods seems to have been operated by the MoS or WD. However, he same elderly lady who gave an account of working there also mentions an American base nearby.

The 'road crane' is of a very particular type, used for work on things like sewers and drains. In the view I looked at, it seemed to have toppled, and a PW Department crane was used to try and recover it. This, too, seems to have overbalanced, and so a heavier crane was being used to recover both.

[Fingers]

Hi Paul and Brian

 

I have pondered over Elson Siding. I thought like you that it was off the Oswestry line at the west junction of the triangle.  But the triangle was taken out of use a long time ago whereas the WTT shows a morning and afternoon 'pilot' shunt to Elson Siding as late as 1962.  Having just googled Elson I noticed a reference to a wharf and siding for Elson Brick Works (Duddleston Road) in the National Archive.  Don't know what that was or when! I did wonder about including the moves in my operating sequence but decided it was a complication too far for my operators. As far as I know the loco propelled the vehicles with a brake van at the front. I planned to send a couple of vans in the morning and bring them back in the afternoon.

 

As far as buildings are concerned - I based my Goods shed on the ones at Bettisfield and Llanfyllin which were very similar and are still standing.  My signal box is adapted from measurements and brick counts of Pwllheli box and photos of Ellesmere box.  The stable and weigh office are based on the photos in Derek Lowe's book (not always easy to count bricks from a black and white photo!) whilst everything else is guesswork.  I think my Up platform shelter is a bit on the small side in retrospect.

 

Hope that's useful.

 

Phil

 

Phil,

 

Many thanks for the reply, looks like the magnifying glass is going to have to come out!

 

Elson sidings is becoming quite a conundrum for a location meriting two trains a day (OK trains might be labouring the point!)! Agree that the triangle was abandoned many years ago, I was looking at the 25 inch 1920's map which clearly show the earthworks and the access to the "factory" crossing nearer the Welshpool line end of the triangle. Starting to look a little further away (like the next two sheets) success - I hope!

 

If you look toward the right hand side of this sheet https://maps.nls.uk/view/121148207 you'll note what is (hopefully) the brickworks with sidings. There is what appears to be a run round ability making the shunting move rather odd but possibly there wasn't room for more modern motive power?

 

Only downside is that the site seems to have been in the midst of nowhere and I can't trace any road names. Also there is absolutely no trace on Google as site seems to have been ploughed back to fields.  

 

Interesting additional detail on the crane "problem", a case of getting a bigger hammer methinks :-) 

 

Paul

[Fingers]

Phil,

 

Many thanks for the reply, looks like the magnifying glass is going to have to come out!

 

Elson sidings is becoming quite a conundrum for a location meriting two trains a day (OK trains might be labouring the point!)! Agree that the triangle was abandoned many years ago, I was looking at the 25 inch 1920's map which clearly show the earthworks and the access to the "factory" crossing nearer the Welshpool line end of the triangle. Starting to look a little further away (like the next two sheets) success - I hope!

 

If you look toward the right hand side of this sheet https://maps.nls.uk/view/121148207 you'll note what is (hopefully) the brickworks with sidings. There is what appears to be a run round ability making the shunting move rather odd but possibly there wasn't room for more modern motive power?

 

Only downside is that the site seems to have been in the midst of nowhere and I can't trace any road names. Also there is absolutely no trace on Google as site seems to have been ploughed back to fields.  

 

Interesting additional detail on the crane "problem", a case of getting a bigger hammer methinks :-) 

 

Paul

 

Phil,

 

Oh bu**er it!

 

Just looked at the 1948 6" map and lo, it seems what I thought might be the brickworks is in fact a second "HMG" depot. If you look at the map https://maps.nls.uk/view/101593663 you can see both sites are almost identical! So, the search goes on for the brickworks.

 

Paul

[Fingers]

Phil,

 

Oh bu**er it!

 

Just looked at the 1948 6" map and lo, it seems what I thought might be the brickworks is in fact a second "HMG" depot. If you look at the map https://maps.nls.uk/view/101593663 you can see both sites are almost identical! So, the search goes on for the brickworks.

 

Paul

 

Phil,

 

Well, double bu**er it!

 

Just goes to show that you really should read more! Having wondered whether the working timetable I have might show the sidings, it transpires that the sidings were 3/4 from Ellesmere on the Wrexham line just short of "Elson Halt". Looking at the various maps for the area (1961 1" OS), I found the halt by the B5069 bridge but scale is too small to show sidings. It did however yield a single large building (which I now think would have been the brickworks - https://maps.nls.uk/view/91576784)between the halt and the next bridge toward Ellesmere,

 

Interestingly the map also shows the HMG factory on the disused triangle but not the similar factory just further along (which showed on the 1948 6" map).

 

Fascinating how such a rural place can throw up so many questions!

 

 

Paul

[26power]

Are you aware of the "geo referenced" option on NLS maps?  Shows maps continuously and has an option to compare with other imagery, eg aerial photography (slider bar at bottom left).  Area of Ellesmere/Elson Halt:

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=52.9136&lon=-2.9101&layers=10&b=1

Edited September 26, 2018 by 26power

[rhyd-y-clafdy]

Hi Everybody

 

I'm starting to think that the Brickworks and siding were on the site now occupied by Cargotec.  I've looked on google maps, earth and street view and can see no evidence thats useful. My only conclusion is that from the point of view of operating Ellesmere I should substitute vans for open wagons loaded with bricks!!!! Beyond that as my layout just covers the area between the Elson Road bridge and Grange Road bridge and apart from the academic interest I'm not going to worry too much about Elson Siding unless I can find someone in the area who knows!!

 

Apart from exhibiting Ellesmere my energy is heading towards my next layout. For anyone interested it will be at the NEC in November but beware taking too much interest because I am always on the lookout for operators!!! By the way the layout was featured in the October 2016 BRM magazine.

 

Cheers

 

Phil

[rhyd-y-clafdy]

Hello to everyone:

 

Just to let you know Ellesmere will be at the Warley Exhibition at the NEC this weekend 24/25th November (Stand C17).  We are very approachable if you have any questions or just want a chat.

 

I hope everything is ready now anyway its all packed away!  Think I finally ironed out our signal problem and have just ironed the drapes, just need to sort out the coach sets so we know which ones to use when!

 

Here's hoping there aren't too many gremlins!!!

 

See you there.

 

Phil

[44690]

I'll be there   

[gismorail]

Great to see Ellesmere at the Warley Show up with the best layouts in the country it looks better every time I see it. Was good to see you again Phil I bet you were exhausted by the end of the weekend mate it's quite some show to attend with the number of people demanding action all the time. Well done your invitation to show at the National Show must give you great satisfaction.    

[44690]

Ellesmere is booked to appear at the Railex 2019 show at Stoke Mandeville Stadium, Aylesbury on 25th and 26th May 2019.