Folkestone-Dover sea wall wash-out

[roythebus]

Apologies if it's been posted elsewhere, but the BBC News reporting the sea wall at Dover suffered damage at high tide the other day. The line is likely to be closed until the end of February according to Network Rail.

 

Call in Captain Kernow!

[Fat Controller]

Apologies if it's been posted elsewhere, but the BBC News reporting the sea wall at Dover suffered damage at high tide the other day. The line is likely to be closed until the end of February according to Network Rail.

 

Call in Captain Kernow!

It's covered on David Todd's thread dedicated to Dover Priory, including some photos that David took on his camera phone. The Network Rail site also has images:-

http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/railway-between-dover-priory-and-folkestone-central-closed-after-damage-to-sea-wall?hootPostID=124f4c838aba206528aab33f2e7eaa54#downloads

though they don't show the footbridge apparently hanging in mid-air. David's photos do also show what looks like earth movement on the cliff-face behind the sea-wall.

[Gary H]

Indeed.

Big damage!!

Looks like an orange army, Dawlish style rebuild needed!!

http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/railway-between-dover-priory-and-folkestone-central-closed-after-damage-to-sea-wall

I reckon they'll be a few frantic phone calls to Amco and Bam Nuttall as we speak.

[Vanders]

I see blame is already being apportioned:

MP for Dover and Deal Charlie Elphicke said: "I've contacted the rail minster to express my grave concerns that we shouldn't just have a collapse."

 

The Conservative MP added: "I've asked Network Rail to let me have their inspection reports and maintenance history on this sea wall. It seems to me this should not have happened."

I've checked, and Charlie Elphicke MP does not appear to have much experience in civil engineering.

 

I seem to recall that NR weren't actually liable for the sea-wall itself at Dawlish; does anyone know what the case is at Dover?

Edited December 29, 2015 by Vanders

[Reorte]

Sounds like the MP is one of those people living under the delusion that things never actually go wrong - how do people get so out of touch with reality?

[Oldddudders]

While it seems likely that this breach will be repaired in early course, the certainty is that the cliffs there will eventually give up the ghost and the railway will cease to be economically sustainable. Before Channel Tunnel this would have been much more serious. While the local economy would suffer from the loss of the communicating railway, costs of restoration would be astronomical, and the case for doing so is in no way comparable to the Dawlish situation, with South Devon and Cornwall cut off from the national network.

[Joseph_Pestell]

At least nowhere gets cut off from the rest of the rail network by this.

 

The downside of that is to wonder how necessary this bit of railway really is nowadays since the Channel Tunnel. If the cost to restore is huge (as it will be if there are problems with the cliff), bustitution could be a real option. (Edit: Dudders just beat me to it).

Sounds like the MP is one of those people living under the delusion that things never actually go wrong - how do people get so out of touch with reality?

 

They never were.

Edited December 29, 2015 by Joseph_Pestell

[Oldddudders]

Back in the '80s, Southern Region were concerned at the state of the White Cliffs, as I have no doubt their predecessor had been. Consultants were engaged and recommended palliative measures such as de-watering, and these were implemented. But the conclusion was that these were of limited long-term value, and thus it wasn't a question of whether the cliffs would fall down, but merely when. Chalk fall alarm fences have been in use for many decades, certainly since the 1960-ish resignalling, I think, with which they are linked.

 

As Joseph points out, the existence of the former LC&DR route via Canterbury East means nowhere would lose an existing rail link to London. 'Merely' the railway between Folkestone and Dover would be lost, while stations between Martin Mill and Sandwich might have to be served via Canterbury West.

[Fat Controller]

There are quite a lot of schoolchildren who seem to use the Sandling- Folkestone- Dover service, as well as commuters who use HS1 to get to London. The option for the former would seem to be buses, but for the latter, it's not so obvious.

AT least tomorrow, Folkestone's service is down to one train per hour, with a change at Ashford for HS1. I'm going up tomorrow, so I hope it holds together.

[Reorte]

Anyway I'm sure it'll get sorted. I grumble about the modern railway an awful lot but Network Rail seem to be very good at dealing with this sort of thing; as I think I've said before I wouldn't be surprised if they relish the challenge (not that they want to be in this situation to begin with of course); at any rate they certainly rise to it.

[Fat Controller]

Anyway I'm sure it'll get sorted. I grumble about the modern railway an awful lot but Network Rail seem to be very good at dealing with this sort of thing; as I think I've said before I wouldn't be surprised if they relish the challenge (not that they want to be in this situation to begin with of course); at any rate they certainly rise to it.

It will be a challenge; part of the problem being that they don't know what lies behind the damaged sea wall. Most of the site will be accessible from the site of the former Dover Town Yard, which was a lorry park when last I looked (and still seems to be so, according to Google Earth:-

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Dover,+Kent/@51.1125743,1.2965729,302m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x47dea4d1553332ff:0x32785c875ad74851!6m1!1e1?hl=en

[Gary H]

Scroll down abit for another view of the top and line- http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3374071/Rail-woe-continue-SUNDAY-major-train-operators-t-drivers-volunteer-work-holidays.html

[The Bigbee Line]

Back in the '80s, Southern Region were concerned at the state of the White Cliffs, as I have no doubt their predecessor had been. Consultants were engaged and recommended palliative measures such as de-watering, and these were implemented. But the conclusion was that these were of limited long-term value, and thus it wasn't a question of whether the cliffs would fall down, but merely when. Chalk fall alarm fences have been in use for many decades, certainly since the 1960-ish resignalling, I think, with which they are linked.

 

As Joseph points out, the existence of the former LC&DR route via Canterbury East means nowhere would lose an existing rail link to London. 'Merely' the railway between Folkestone and Dover would be lost, while stations between Martin Mill and Sandwich might have to be served via Canterbury West.

Further to the informative post from Ian.

 

Other than the cliff falls I thought Shakespeare Tunnel was reasonably stable. The section outside the tunnel  mouths adjacent to the footbridge has had previous subsidence in the 90s I think.  Also the Tunnel at Abbotcliffe was "rolling" towards the sea. Has that been stopped?  The other, not often mentioned downside is the historic instability of Folkestone Warren. 

I'm not one to promote line closures but Dover has three other routes to London; Chatham via Ramsgate, Chatham via Canterbury East and Ashford via Minster. 

If the line was closed from Folkestone Central, there is space at Folkestone East for stabling and or a 'Parkway' station.

 

One more option is to deal with Shakespeare and Abbotscliffe Tunnels in the same manner as Round Down Cliff ie blow them up with Gunpowder has room for stabling.

[lmsforever]

Perhaps the mp will come along and offer help to NR as he seems to be so proactive and knowledgeable ,or I am sure there are plenty of competent modelers ready and willing with mod roc and plasticard.Seriously hope this can be sorted quickly .as it looks like another Dawlish.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...As Joseph points out, the existence of the former LC&DR route via Canterbury East means nowhere would lose an existing rail link to London. 'Merely' the railway between Folkestone and Dover would be lost, while stations between Martin Mill and Sandwich might have to be served via Canterbury West.

 Looks like a no-brainer for rationalisation, eliminating the permanent difficulties and hazards associated with active erosion features, which is what cliffs are. Cue howling of local residents.

[Edwin_m]

I think there was a wartime connection where the two lines cross at Canterbury but it seems to have simply provided an alternative route between Faversham and Ramsgate.  If a curve could be installed in the opposite "quadrant" of that intersection then it would provide an alterative route from Dover to Ashford and thence HS1.  It's shorter than going via the triangle at Minster though still longer than via Folkestone. 

[eastwestdivide]

It does mean that anyone who wants a direct train between Dover and London now has a journey of just on 2 hours via Chatham instead of about 1h05 via HS1. Alternatively 1h50 via a bus to Folkestone and change again at Ashford for HS1.

 

Edit: from 4th Jan, they will be running HS1 trains from Folkestone, according to https://www.journeycheck.com/southeastern/

Edited December 30, 2015 by eastwestdivide

[Fat Controller]

It does mean that anyone who wants a direct train between Dover and London now has a journey of just on 2 hours via Chatham instead of about 1h05 via HS1. Alternatively 1h50 via a bus to Folkestone and change again at Ashford for HS1.

 

Edit: from 4th Jan, they will be running HS1 trains from Folkestone, according to https://www.journeycheck.com/southeastern/

This confirms what the guard (sorry, 'train manager') told us on the way back today; today's arrangement was :-

Up Train from FKW to AFK, then change for HS1

Down HS1 from STP to AFK, then bus to FKW. The bus was a 'N' registration, a Daimler Fleetline I think, which went like the clappers down the M20.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I think there was a wartime connection where the two lines cross at Canterbury but it seems to have simply provided an alternative route between Faversham and Ramsgate.  If a curve could be installed in the opposite "quadrant" of that intersection then it would provide an alterative route from Dover to Ashford and thence HS1.  It's shorter than going via the triangle at Minster though still longer than via Folkestone. 

 

That is right, the connection there was in the wrong direction.

 

Probably not too difficult to provide a link in the right direction and probably cheaper than doing extensive work on the coast route.

[lapford34102]

Local TV tonight showing film of rocks being piled against the seawall plus local MP this time saying it's more important to get this sorted than apportion blame.

He's got together with the South Thanet MP which suggests they've both realised there could be political repercussions if this isn't sorted fast. While I understand the thinking I don't regard abandoning the line is any sort of option for a number of reasons with the incumbent MP's future prospects being high on the list. Equally I'm sure telling the residents of Dover that in future their only direct route to London is via Chatham wouldn't go down well, and rightly so.

 

Stu

 

Edit

 

Probably not too difficult to provide a link in the right direction and probably cheaper than doing extensive work on the coast route

Looks quite easy on the map...........

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.2785387,1.0487456,13z

Edited December 30, 2015 by lapford34102

[Jim Martin]

Perhaps the mp will come along and offer help to NR as he seems to be so proactive and knowledgeable.

It's easy to have a pop at the MP, but he's probably just articulating the views of many of his constituents. Assuming that other people are incompetent is a fine old British tradition.

 

Jim

[Sheffield]

Not only do we all know why the other fellow is going wrong, but it seems to me that the less we understand and know about his job the more certain we are that he is incompetent at it. Perhaps that is why MPs can comment with such certainty about the work of every body else.   

[Captain Kernow]

 

I seem to recall that NR weren't actually liable for the sea-wall itself at Dawlish; does anyone know what the case is at Dover?

Not so, the Dawlish Sea Wall is Network Rail's asset.

 

I would be very surprised if this wasn't also the case at Dover.

[eastwestdivide]

Just realised that David Todd is adding the odd bit of local knowledge and photos of some repair work already, on page 203 (!) of his Dover Priory thread:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/75589-1-dover-priory-kent-today-31-12-15-4x-class-73s/?p=2146093

[brushman47544]

This confirms what the guard (sorry, 'train manager') told us on the way back today; today's arrangement was :-Up Train from FKW to AFK, then change for HS1Down HS1 from STP to AFK, then bus to FKW. The bus was a 'N' registration, a Daimler Fleetline I think, which went like the clappers down the M20.

A bus along the M20 will of course cease to be an option as soon as Operation Stack is needed...