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Larbert


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Indeed Dave, I copped the Duke on Stirling shed in the summer of '62 and yes we need one of our group to splash out - maybe the guy with all the Duchesses as he'll be wondering what entire class to acquire next! 

You guys should know better - the Duke's already available, thanks to DJH (many years ago)

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Yes, I was told some time ago that even the 'Duke' had a run up that way but I don't think any group members have a one in OO.

 

Plenty LMS injuns with a goodly sprinkle of that funny looking LNE stuff. 

 

Dave Franks.

Got one but its unbuilt..you can always offer your services there of course..

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Mark ,

 

If the tame electrician is playing trains on Alloa at Glasgow this year ; I know exactly where we have to stand . This will ensure to block a vital sight line .........

 

Best regards

 

Mike b :-)

 

…and no doubt with your back to Alloa and admiring the view opposite…you'll not see much for Arran standing in front of you..!

just to show I wasn't kidding...

 

attachicon.gif71000.jpg

Its going nowhere..its got nae coal in the tender!

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  • 2 weeks later...

As the location has now been positively identified as Larbert, here are a couple of research questions for all you knowledgeable RMWebbers out there.

 

Firstly, does anyone have any specific dates when the scissors crossovers in the middle of the station were removed? The down line one, it seems, was removed before the up line one and there may have been some time between the two, based on photo evidence.

 

Secondly, I have been unable to find, from the usual sources, a signalbox diagram for Larbert SOUTH box - can anyone help?

 

Thanks in anticipation.

 

Just put the above up again, just in case a knowledgeable RMWebber missed it first time round...

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  • RMweb Gold

As the location has now been positively identified, here are a couple of research questions for all you knowledgeable RMWebbers out there.

 

Firstly, does anyone have any specific dates when the scissors crossovers in the middle of the station were removed? The down line one, it seems, was removed before the up line one and there may have been some time between the two, based on photo evidence.

 

Secondly, I have been unable to find, from the usual sources, a signalbox diagram for Larbert SOUTH box - can anyone help?

 

Thanks in anticipation.

Hi all,

 

When you say 'Usual Sources' - what are they?

 

Just so I don't go looking at what you have already been through!

 

Thanks

 

edit...

 

Tex t from Canmore photo of Larbert South Signal Box.

 

'Larbert South Signal Box, Larbert, Falkirk This large signal box was one of two controlling train movements in and around Larbert Station, which was opened in 1848 by the Scottish Central Railway, and which was until the 1960s an important junction. This shows the box from the south-west, with the south-bound platforms in the foreground. The platform face nearest to the box was used by local trains to Grangemouth and Polmont via Falkirk Grahamston. The box is of a standard Caledonian Railway type. This box was demolished when the station was rebuilt in about 1980. The track layout was simplified, and the remaining signals are now operated from the north box, at the other end of the station. The bay platforms and the through lines between the main platforms were removed during the rebuilding. Source: RCAHMS contribution to SCRAN.'

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Hi all,

 

When you say 'Usual Sources' - what are they?

 

Just so I don't go looking at what you have already been through!

 

Thanks

 

edit...

 

Tex t from Canmore photo of Larbert South Signal Box.

 

'Larbert South Signal Box, Larbert, Falkirk This large signal box was one of two controlling train movements in and around Larbert Station, which was opened in 1848 by the Scottish Central Railway, and which was until the 1960s an important junction. This shows the box from the south-west, with the south-bound platforms in the foreground. The platform face nearest to the box was used by local trains to Grangemouth and Polmont via Falkirk Grahamston. The box is of a standard Caledonian Railway type. This box was demolished when the station was rebuilt in about 1980. The track layout was simplified, and the remaining signals are now operated from the north box, at the other end of the station. The bay platforms and the through lines between the main platforms were removed during the rebuilding. Source: RCAHMS contribution to SCRAN.'

The most likely source would have been signalbox.org and the like, we have not found any diagrams for the late 50's early 60's (or any other period, actually). Plenty of photos of the box which isn't a problem to build from but we could do with the box diagram, even better a dated one!

 

Would certainly appreciate any help!

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Afraid I can't speak for Chas's research, but since joining the group, mine has been from

RCAHMS,

National Library of Scotland,

Flickr,

Transport Treasury,

Railphotoprints,

Scotsman archive,

Signalling Record Society,

Signalbox Org,

Caley Railway Assoc.,

Scottish railway themed books from major publishers over last 15 or so years,

Internet searches using both Google and Yahoo ( and getting different results),

Old Larbert & Stenhousemuir Facebook pages

and eBay.

I have also had the opportunity to view photos from Stuart Sellars collection.

 

We know that both scissors crossings existed in July 58.

We know the Up scissors survived when green Sulzer Type 2s were in use (the position of the down scissors being obscured by the train).

We know that by March 64 they had both been removed.

We still don't know when.

A photo has recently been seen of a Duchess with late BR totem on tender where the first carriage is a Stanier period 1 Brake Corridor Compo in BR maroon livery. According to Essery & Jenkinson, these coaches were withdrawn by Aug 63. Therefore the photo is in the period 57/58 - 63. This falls within our period. However, the Up platform and centre road starter is the original Caley post with upper quadrant arms, not the more usual one that features in photos from 64 onwards. Was this also replaced at the time of the track and signalling modifications?

 

Larbert South signalbox also changed over the years. The original ground level windows and door were bricked up and a new door way created. Point rodding the came out the side of the building was moved to the front. Was this done when the auxiliary flat roof, brick shed was constructed, and did that coincide with the other track and signalling work . Incidentally, I haven't seen any photos showing the rear of the signal box.

 

As has already been indicated by my friends, any information will be very gratefully received.

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Hi all,

 

Has anyone looked for older Quail Maps showing the location?

 

These are not common or easy to find but if dated will be a help.

 

My one is the 2007 version - so no use in this quest.

 

Thanks

Hi Phil

Quail maps website indicates the first edition for ScR was 1988, so still to late. From what I can recall from looking at one in the 90s, didn't they only show the lines that existed?

Years ago I had a couple of books by Pryor for Southern England which showed new, modified, out of use and lifted track, along with the appropriate dates for the change. If that kind of book exists for ScR, that would be really useful.

Ian

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  • RMweb Gold

Hi all,

 

OK - Quail Maps - checked and agree 1988 is first for Scotland.

 

Another thought crossed my mind...

 

Has anyone asked Jim Binnie if he has photos?

 

I have a couple from him that date to 1970 that I found when I was looking for information on trains that had CO2 tanks as part of the rake.

 

This includes a Cl17 at Larbert Station.

 

Another possible is Sandy at Scottish Garden Railways who has a small selection of steam era photos taken at Larbert

 

RCTS have some photos of Larbert in the collection - a couple listed for easiness - more available..

 

Link - http://www.rcts.org.uk/features/archive/search.htm?company=&subtype=&class=&location=Larbert&srch=&page=0

 

CH02641  Cl 5MT No. 45471 on the 1735 Glasgow to Dunblane service at Larbert 27/6/64
CH02640  Cl 5MT No. 45474 on a down vans train at Larbert 27/6/64

 

Thanks

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The photos on Jim's website I'm pretty sure are '67 onwards. They have contributed useful information regarding other facets for the model, especially if the club ever decided they had the ability to run the layout, once complete, as a diesel era. The station having few changes until the early'70s when the centre roads were removed. I suspect my own layout will be finished before that ever happens though :^)

I'll check with the other members, just in case they've already approached Jim

Cheers

Ian

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  • RMweb Gold

The photos on Jim's website I'm pretty sure are '67 onwards. They have contributed useful information regarding other facets for the model, especially if the club ever decided they had the ability to run the layout, once complete, as a diesel era. The station having few changes until the early'70s when the centre roads were removed. I suspect my own layout will be finished before that ever happens though :^)

I'll check with the other members, just in case they've already approached Jim

Cheers

Ian

Hi Ian,

 

Just checking dates for the photos I have - earliest is 1967.

 

As for centre roads...

 

I was up in 1969 canoeing (try sending a canoe via train now!) and they were still in place. Next time I was up was 1974 and they were gone.

 

Thanks

 

edit - Railscot has a cl47 on train at Larbert dated 1970 and centre tracks still in place.

 

https://www.railscot.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete.php?id=35952

 

https://www.railscot.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete.php?id=35785

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Hi all,

 

Just had confirmation there is nothing in the Network Rail archive to help with this query.

 

I will have to check, but I seem to remember an article in Modern Railways from the early 70's about 'Rail Rationalisation in Scotland' which may have more info - once I find it!

 

Thanks

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Hi all,

 

Just had confirmation there is nothing in the Network Rail archive to help with this query.

 

I will have to check, but I seem to remember an article in Modern Railways from the early 70's about 'Rail Rationalisation in Scotland' which may have more info - once I find it!

 

Thanks

 

This is all part of our problem, even the limited information we have is mostly too late for our period of interest which is from about '58 to '62/3, we seem to be slap in the middle of a lot of rationalisation around that time! We know the through roads were still in existence but when the scissors were removed, together with associated signalling changes is the problem - we may be forced to "take a view".

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Hi all,

 

A bit of an updfate - info via Facebook and emails.

 

1 - OK By 1970 and until June 1974 I was commuting from Stirling to Glasgow. My recollection is that there were four lines through Larbert until 1972 at least.

 

2 - No the roads were taken out and left unused for a while maybe as long as a year- you could see the rust. I've seen some phots taken in the early 70s.

 

This contact is going to try and find the photos he has reffered to.

 

So - more as the trail unravels.

 

Thanks

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