Larbert

[IanN]

Thanks for your suggestions guys.

The NLS referees to a revised 1:1250 map in 1961 iirc. Old-maps has copies of both a 1960 map and the revised version. Both show the scissors. Photo evidence is preferred as OS didn't always revise the whole map, just the area of significant change .

 

Cheers

Ian

[seahorse]

OK, I admit that I am "trespassing", so feel free to ignore all of the following!

 

I had never really heard of Larbert and had to look it up on the map. I would not have known that it had scissors crossovers, still less when they were removed, but now I want to know too. My next suggestion is to infer their presence from Sectional Appendix and Working Timetables. Or display the model in Larbert Town Hall and wait for someone to tell you that you can't run a 47 over the scissors, or that Clans were withdrawn before the scissors was removed.

 

The scissors would be used for attaching/detaching pilot engines, parcels vans, restaurant cars, through coaches for London etc

Do you regard this as additional operational interest? Or as an impediment to running lots of trains. When did you last see these movements on a model? How many models have the space to do it?

 

So I say Go for it, and put them in and use them. You're modelling a period, not a Tuesday afternoon

 

But which ever way you go, I look forward to seeing the layout because I enjoyed watching Alloa.

 

 

ps You could always ask your track guru ( from a safe distance) to build the pointwork in such a way that it can easily be removed and replaced with plain track

[ScRSG]

OK, I admit that I am "trespassing", so feel free to ignore all of the following!

 

I had never really heard of Larbert and had to look it up on the map. I would not have known that it had scissors crossovers, still less when they were removed, but now I want to know too. My next suggestion is to infer their presence from Sectional Appendix and Working Timetables. Or display the model in Larbert Town Hall and wait for someone to tell you that you can't run a 47 over the scissors, or that Clans were withdrawn before the scissors was removed.

 

The scissors would be used for attaching/detaching pilot engines, parcels vans, restaurant cars, through coaches for London etc

Do you regard this as additional operational interest? Or as an impediment to running lots of trains. When did you last see these movements on a model? How many models have the space to do it?

 

So I say Go for it, and put them in and use them. You're modelling a period, not a Tuesday afternoon

 

But which ever way you go, I look forward to seeing the layout because I enjoyed watching Alloa.

 

 

ps You could always ask your track guru ( from a safe distance) to build the pointwork in such a way that it can easily be removed and replaced with plain track

 

Thanks for your interest, the scissors are interesting but when they were removed they were replaced by single crossovers and not removed completely. Therefore, all movements involving the crossings can then still be done, if not as efficiently as before! (Involving, say, reversing rather than straight running over the crossovers)

 

The vast majority of photo evidence we have, for our intended period, shows just the single crossovers. The signalling for these is much more visually attractive than with the scissors in place as a lot of the signals for those were hidden below the station canopies, so the mood of our group (maybe) is to have the crossovers as single.

[clecklewyke]

I have fond memories of Larbert station as it was there that I last saw an A4 in BR service. My cousin and I had been on a trip to Gleneagles to see the A4s on the three hour Glasgow- Aberdeen service and coming back to Edinburgh we passed an A4 heading South on a parcels train. I cannot now remember which of the class it was: all I remember is that it was filthy. This was probably in the  winter of 65/66 and the light was too poor to get any decent photos.

 

Incidentally, the curate at St Martins, my church in Hull, was one David Benson, better known as the railway photographer, JD Benson. For their honeymoon, he took his wife Margaret to camp in a muddy field beside the railway line at Bridge of Allen in order to capture the three hour expresses on celluloid. Amazingly, his marriage survived this unpromising start.

 

I am really looking forward to your model. Do please include a 3D printed version of David on the lineside!

 

Ian

[IanN]

Hi Seahorse

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Larbert-Railway-Station-Photo-Bonnybridge-to-Airth-and-Plean-Lines-Caledonian-/261552929267?hash=item3ce5c4f9f3:g:62sAAOxywh1TFyC7

 

This link (hopefully) gives an indication of what the North end of Larbert station looked like much earlier than our period. Colour schemes, fashion, rolling stock, replacement ground signals and the two lower quadrant signals ( which were later replaced with upper quadrant arms) are the key changes for the beginning of our period until the removal of the scissors and the associated re-signalling work sometime during the period.

 

The photo was taken below, or very close to the road bridge that crosses the line at an angle dividing the platforms in two, and is looking towards Stirling. Note that the signal has a miniature arm for movements from the (Down) platform behind the camera to the Down centre road. The signal protecting the scissors from the centre road had two full sized arms and are located on the footbridge on the other side of the road bridge, behind the camera.

As can be seen, the scissors were not opposite each other, the Up scissors commencing under the road bridge. It too had two signals under the canopy for the platform road, both of which appear to be full size arms. These remained after the re-signalling.

 

There was a movement whereby local services terminating at Larbert from the south, stopped in the Down platform behind the camera, then empty of passengers, moved forward onto the Down centre road. When convenient, the loco would propel the carriages back onto the Up centre road, where it left them before running round the carriages using the Up platform line. Finally propelling the carriages into the Up platform in the photo ready for the passengers to embark. Due to the use of the scissors crossings, this entire movement could be completed while keeping platform faces available for another train in both Up and Down directions. Regardless of location, I can't personally recall a similar set of movements on any layout I've seen over the last near 50 years.

 

The scissors will undoubtably enhance the visual impact and the operational interest of the layout. Without them, you only have one through running line platform in each direction assessible from a single entrance/exit. With them you have two medium length through platforms in each direction accessible from two entrance/exit points or a single long platform in each direction. As you correctly say, not many people have the space. We're lucky in that respect.

 

I suspect some of the working appendices might contain the answer to our dilemma. There must have been a temporary speed restriction over the lines immediately after the scissors were removed.

Hopefully we'll get the answer soon, and then we can build the configuration and signalling that was there the greatest proportion of our modelling period. At least then we'll be right most of the time....

 

Ian

[clecklewyke]

If you like the scissors crossovers, they would enhance the operating potential and they were there for at least some of your period I'd apply to the DVLA for a Modellers' Licence.

 

Ian

[seahorse]

Hi IanN and ScRS

Thanks for taking so much trouble with your replies - you clearly took my post in the spirit it was intended. You describe train movements which are too seldom seen on models.

If you find a visitor impaled on an umbrella, it will be  the person next to me who complained that all the shunting got in the way of trains running nose to tail at full speed.

I too like to see trains running round, but I enjoy it so much more when they interact and represent running for a purpose.

I have looked at pictures on flickr, and the modern station has no sense of place or location and could be anywhere.

So good luck with your model, and I look forward to watching it

[Scottish Modeller]

Hi IanN and ScRS

 

If you find a visitor impaled on an umbrella, it will be  the person next to me who complained that all the shunting got in the way of trains running nose to tail at full speed.

 

Hi Seahorse,

 

Love the expression and agree with the sentiment of it!

 

Can you arrange to do this at one of the quieter times during the show?

 

It would be such a show stopper and we don't want the show to stop.

 

Thanks

[vitalspark]

 

 

 

ps You could always ask your track guru ( from a safe distance) to build the pointwork in such a way that it can easily be removed and replaced with plain track

 

I am assuming you know our grumpy track guru!…we are still drawing straws on that suggestion.

 

Dave

[vitalspark]

Interestingly BR Scottish Region sectional Appendix for 1969 showing speed limits for Larbert states 5mph over scissors crossover..1969?!

[Porcy Mane]

Now that Peco has announced it is going to introduce 4mm "true scale" bullhead with correctly spaced sleepering I'll expect you boys to have  the track work down for this little project in 10 minutes.

 

P

[davefrk]

So who is this 'Grumpy track guru' it's obviously not moi, look - happy smiley face   .

 

I know someone else who isn't going to be happy being referred to like that.

 

Dave Franks

[Porcy Mane]

So who is this 'Grumpy track guru' it's obviously not moi, look - happy smiley face   .

 Nope. I can't disagree with that.

 

Example: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/106627-son-of-alloa/page-2&do=findComment&comment=2149851

 

P

Hows the brake van lamps coming on?

[IanN]

Interestingly BR Scottish Region sectional Appendix for 1969 showing speed limits for Larbert states 5mph over scissors crossover..1969?!

We know there was a 40 speed restriction through the platform road in '64-65, possibly earlier. 20 for the centre roads mentioned in the S.A. would be about right in anticipation the train would frequently be drawing to a stop. The centre roads being the diverging route from both Up and Down line. The original scissors crossings, being on a curves were probably 5mph when crossing from platform to centre or v.v. Photos indicate the replacement crossings took up the same length as the scissors they replaced, so speed limit probably remained, but somebody forgot to amend the description from scissors to crossing.

 

Ian

[ScRSG]

We have been told that the scissors were taken out in 1959, but not whether both up and down were removed at the same time. No other evidence other than anecdotal.

[Jon Gwinnett]

Build which version you prefer. From what you've all said, no one can contradict you or prove otherwise! And rule 1 IMTS still applies.

 

Need to catch up some time soon, hope to see you all at Glasgow.

[vitalspark]

So who is this 'Grumpy track guru' it's obviously not moi, look - happy smiley face   .

 

I know someone else who isn't going to be happy being referred to like that.

 

Dave Franks

..ah the other one..no he's definitely grumpy!

[vitalspark]

Glad you both recognised your profiles!

 

Anyway its traditional that pw men are grumpy.

[IanN]

Grumpy? Happy? I'm not sure being named after the dwarves is better than everyone being called Dave......

[IanN]

We have been told that the scissors were taken out in 1959, but not whether both up and down were removed at the same time. No other evidence other than anecdotal.

Within the research material already gathered was a copy of a photo of a green BRCW Type 2/ Class 27 standing in the Up platform with part of the Up scissors clearly visible. This challenges the 1959 date as the first of these locomotives was introduced in July 61. It doesn't rule out that the scissors weren't removed at separate times, but there's been no sensible obvious reason identified for doing so yet. Unfortunately the loco number isn't visible in the photo, preventing the possibly of more accurate dating.

 

The quest for when the scissors were removed continues, concentrating on the period July 61 - March 63.

[gazman424]

Hi Ian/ All,

 I'll maybe get an answer for you in the morning, via an ex-Larbert North Bookmarker. He comes on duty at 0630, so i'll give him a bell and see what his opinion is, as his knowledge is quite encyclopedic.

Gaz. (Currently keeping an eye on all things S&T related in the Larbert area...)

 

 

Within the research material already gathered was a copy of a photo of a green BRCW Type 2/ Class 27 standing in the Up platform with part of the Up scissors clearly visible. This challenges the 1959 date as the first of these locomotives was introduced in July 61. It doesn't rule out that the scissors weren't removed at separate times, but there's been no sensible obvious reason identified for doing so yet. Unfortunately the loco number isn't visible in the photo, preventing the possibly of more accurate dating.

The quest for when the scissors were removed continues, concentrating on the period July 61 - March 63.

[IanN]

Thanks Gazman424. Much appreciated.

[gazman424]

Morning All,

 According to the font of knowledge, July 12th, 1958 is when the Grangemouth - Larbert service went from being a Caley 0-4-4T and coaches to a railbus, and rounding that train was the main use for them. In 1965, there were paper vans that came from Polmont, hauled by a J37 (N308 headcode?) ,arrived and ran round, and attached to the rear of 1S07, which also used them.

 So, by his reckoning, they were definitely still there in 1969, and were removed along with the centre roads in the early 70's. They were operated from Larbert South. His best guess is removal in 1972.

 He's going to do some digging and welcomes other enquiries.

Gaz.(Off to bed now...)

Thanks Gazman424. Much appreciated.

[ScRSG]

Morning All,

 According to the font of knowledge, July 12th, 1958 is when the Grangemouth - Larbert service went from being a Caley 0-4-4T and coaches to a railbus, and rounding that train was the main use for them. In 1965, there were paper vans that came from Polmont, hauled by a J37 (N308 headcode?) ,arrived and ran round, and attached to the rear of 1S07, which also used them.

 So, by his reckoning, they were definitely still there in 1969, and were removed along with the centre roads in the early 70's. They were operated from Larbert South. His best guess is removal in 1972.

 He's going to do some digging and welcomes other enquiries.

Gaz.(Off to bed now...)

 

Sorry, gazman, there seems to be some confusion here. We know and are happy with the through (slow) roads themselves and that they were removed well after our period of interest. Where we have the problem is the scissors crossovers on the up and down lines in the middle of the station and when they were converted to single (or simple) crossovers.

 

We have been having a lot of debate about this in our group, but the general consensus seems to be that we would build the layout with the revised (much more attractive and visually interesting) signalling, which would mean single crossovers in the station centre. We would therefore have to take some liberties with some rolling stock such as Caley o-4-4's, but there you go. (They would still be able to perform any run round movements through single crossovers)  Sorry if that upsets the purists! Nobody has noticed or pointed out to us (or cares?) that the same principles applied to our Alloa layout, which has the same type of anachronisms.

Edited February 5, 2016 by ScRSG

[gazman424]

Hi There,

 I made the point of emphasising 'scissors crossings' and he was sure they were still as there as per my earlier post. Having done a bit of digging myself, they definitely weren't there in 1968;

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/6920586899/in/photolist-bxxPnM

 

 He's obviously mis-understood the scissors crossover reference, understandable, given that it was 0630!!.

 

Here are a couple of pics which are tantalizingly close;

 

 

 

 

 

All Copyright to JWelsh.

 

Apologies for the misunderstanding, but let me know if you need anymore pics or info...

Sorry, gazman, there seems to be some confusion here. We know and are happy with the through (slow) roads themselves and that they were removed well after our period of interest. Where we have the problem is the scissors crossovers on the up and down lines in the middle of the station and when they were converted to single (or simple) crossovers.

 

We have been having a lot of debate about this in our group, but the general consensus seems to be that we would build the layout with the revised (much more attractive and visually interesting) signalling, which would mean single crossovers in the station centre. We would therefore have to take some liberties with some rolling stock such as Caley o-4-4's, but there you go. (They would still be able to perform any run round movements through single crossovers)  Sorry if that upsets the purists! Nobody has noticed or pointed out to us (or cares?) that the same principles applied to our Alloa layout, which has the same type of anachronisms.