mulberry junction Mulberry Junction ( from page 10 )

[SGJ]

After my experience of Building Armley Moor / Midland Road I have decided to build a new layout Carr Crofts, based again in Armley in Leeds, and again because of my childhood memories ( http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/68853-domestic-coal-wagons-coal-yards-in-the-80s/ and http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/72294-midland-road/

I must say thanks to the many members on RMWEB who have helped with various questions that I had previously, I know that I shall have many more but that is for the future

I am hoping to have the layout as close to scale as possible but measurements can't be taken, the location has been re-developed and the other consideration is what I can fit into my man cave.

The stock is pretty much the stock I like, DMUs running to Manchester Victoria, Hebden Bridge, Blackpool North, and Bradford Interchange, a few locomotives for the Parcel service to Bradford Interchange, and indeed the coal yard, and an HST for the Bradford Executive depending there was also a Scrap metal train going to Bradford close to the site of Hammerton street depot

The coal merchant was Henry Musgrave.

The yard in the end which is when I want to base the model, in the early 80`s had two roads, a catch point, a point onto the down line and a trailing crossover on the Down to up line, It wasn't signaled as such e.g. it didn't have any shunting signals / ground signals / dollies the points were operated by a ground frame, permission was granted from Leeds Power Box for the train Gaurd to operate the points, I presume that normal signals protected the shunting manoeuvre from the yard to the Up Main which had to cross the path of the down main.

A friend who was a colleague when I worked on the railways in the early 90`s has told me of the working for the wagons and has helped me with the track plan he is an ex Holbeck driver who did the turn from time to time.

The maneuver is quite interesting to me as it uses the yards incline / Gravity because of not having a run round loop.

There were empties waiting in the yard from the previous day so what happened was the loco with its wagons, 5 or 6 16t minerals with a brake van on the end would come from Leeds on the Down line, It would pass the crossover the guard would operate the ground frame then the train would set back into the yard on the road where the previous days wagons were so the brake van could couple to the previous days wagons, the guard would then re-set the ground frame so the mainline wasn`t blocked, the guard would then uncouple the brake van from the loaded wagons which is still attached to the locomotive so the brake van could be attached to the empty wagons and uncoupled from the loaded wagons

 

The locomotive would then draw forward past the point in the yard then set back with the loaded wagons into the other road. once the loco was in the other siding the empties with the brake van would have their brakes released by the guard and roll the wagons and van past the points because the yard was on a slope / incline, once the brake van was passed the yard point the brake was applied in the guards van to stop the train, the loco would then couple up to the empties.

 

The guard would then obtain permission from Leeds Power Box to set the points again from the ground frame ( including the catch point ). once permission was obtained the train would set back onto the down line ( Bradford direction ) past the trailing crossover, the Gaurd would re-set the points again so the train could then use the Cross over to the up line ( Leeds Direction ) the train would then cross over the points and wait on the up line, the Gaurd would then re-set the points again so they were back to mainline running, and inform Leeds Power Box, and the train would then be on its way back in the Leeds direction on the up line.

 

In essance this is what Carr Crofts is going to be, a simple layout with operational interest on a real location based on my childhood.

I do want to have fun with the layout but I also want that touch of realism too.

 

The first plan which isnt to scale but is fairly close attached

 

The class 37 ( 37278 ) on the scrap train from Bradford to Healy Mills ( bound for Cardiff )

 

Edited June 6, 2021 by SGJ

[inglenookfan]

I like the look of this and wish the best of modelling to you for 2016. Have you decided scale and board size?

 

If you want to emulate the gravity shunt then have a look at the Farthing Layouts in the blogs. Maybe you are aware of them already?. They are simply brilliant and the last time i had a peak mikkel was playing around with gravity shunting and methods of arresting wagons.

 

Inglenookfan

[SGJ]

I like the look of this and wish the best of modelling to you for 2016. Have you decided scale and board size?

 

If you want to emulate the gravity shunt then have a look at the Farthing Layouts in the blogs. Maybe you are aware of them already?. They are simply brilliant and the last time i had a peak mikkel was playing around with gravity shunting and methods of arresting wagons.

 

Inglenookfan

 

Hello Inglenookfan

I have not got as far as deciding what scale or size yet, I still have my 4mm Bachmann 16t wagons, a 08, 31, 37, and 45 plus the DMU`s and coaches left from Midland Road,  I am thinking of maybe doing EM or P4 or using Peco code 75, I have only used Code 100 track before ( except when I was a young lad when I used Hornby set track ).

It is very early days I don't have an actual plan to work from yet, I have not decided what to make the boards from yet neither.

I am thinking for the gravity rolling to use electric type magnets under the baseboards with a steel strip under a couple of strategically placed wagons in the rakes, I am also planning to use Kadee couplings on the ends of the wagon rakes, hopefully the electromagnets won't interfere with the Kadee couplings however I will need to be careful where I position the electromagnets and Kadee magnets.

The thought of replacing wheels on the locomotives is a bit worrying for me so it is something to give a lot of thought to.

I am not planning to use the magnets to move the wagons, I am wanting gravity to do that, I am wanting the magnets to hold the wagons in place until its time for them to be released so one magnet will be switched off the wagons will roll down the siding and over the point, the next magnet will catch the rolling wagons before they hit the catch point, well that's the plan, the other way wich is using the magnet to move the wagon is as you said by Mikkel shown on youtube

It looks great but not what I want although similar

Regards

SGJ

The Farthing Layouts: Telekinesis (GWR model railway)

By gwrmodelling .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zR7C5_5owwQ

[Removed a/c]

Shall follow along with interest. Originally from Leeds...........many, many moons ago though. 

[Barry O]

Hinge a kadee plate magnet under the board? With steel axles you can uncouple the brake van using the magnet. When you want the wagons to move pull the magnet out of the way and let the wagons roll away.

 

The Club OO GWR layout has some of these magnets I think. Call in if you need any ideas.

 

EM diesels are relatively easy to do, and most wagons can be converted reasonably easily.

 

Baz

[SGJ]

I have already found what is going to be my first compromise, The length from Carr Crofts to Whingate is 750M that is the section I wanted to model, Carr Crofts to Wortley Road is 500M wich is just the yard without the crossover, The space available that I have is just shy of 16 foot so neither lengths would actually fit.

The area was a goods yard before being just a coal yard serving the Armley factories and community and had a lot more sidings and buildings and did indeed have a Railway station Armley Moor ( aka Armley and Wortley ) with sidings both sides of the station.

With this in mind the removal of the station and all the unwanted / unneeded sidings I think the area could be compressed somewhat without looking overly inaccurate, and because the coal trains that remained running into Henry Musgrave`s being formed of up to around 6 wagons plus a brake van the siding lengths can be compromised to be smaller than what the actual yard size was.

If I was to model the area that I want to scale I would have needed 32 feet, Whingate to Carr Crofts is 750 meters, The other area, Wortley Road to Carr Crofts is 500 meters which works out at 21 feet that is still too big so because of having to do a compromise I will be compressing the 750 meters ( 2460 feet ) by approximately 50%.

The alternative is to not stick with OO and progress into N gauge using the above calculations the layout in N would be more or less perfect but with a different problem that N brings is that stock that I need is not available with the DMUs such as the class 110 class 144, and class 155 Leyland sprinters which were the prodomenent units along the line so I think that rules out n for the time being.

The next step is to have a visit to the site, and take some photographs around the area, I know nothing in the way of the yard remains, it is now Industrial units etc but the road bridges and some walls and the like are still there so it is worth looking at them to get a idea of what I am going to be modelling so if weather permits that is next weekends day out for me, a couple of journeys on a few busses and it may also bring back more memories too from my childhood.

In the time between now and then I can think about the baseboards, and more of the construction of the layout, and work out just exactley what stock I am going to require.

 

I have used streetmap for the size as this seemed was the easyer map to use http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?x=426772&y=433459&z=120&sv=carr+crofts&st=3&tl=Map+of+Carr+Crofts,+Leeds,+Yorkshire+and+the+Humber,+LS12&searchp=ids.srf&mapp=map.srf

[SGJ]

Hinge a kadee plate magnet under the board? With steel axles you can uncouple the brake van using the magnet. When you want the wagons to move pull the magnet out of the way and let the wagons roll away.

 

The Club OO GWR layout has some of these magnets I think. Call in if you need any ideas.

 

EM diesels are relatively easy to do, and most wagons can be converted reasonably easily.

 

Baz

 

Thanks Barry, I think that is great idea, I could cover the magnet with a very thin bit of plastic under the sleepers and use a pushrod or wheel method to lower / raise the magnet, I would still need another magnet near the yard throat to stop the wagons or maybe use a check rail but that may be too difficult and in any case the photos that I have seen don't suggest that there was any. in the yard.

I am thinking to use EM to challenge myself but also I don't want to be doing something I cannot finish, I am wanting to build my own track for the SCENIC PART of the layout, not too sure with the fiddle yard just yet, and it is going to be DCC.

I am wanting to exhibit the layout when it's done so that will be taken into consideration.

The train sizes are another thought, I need an HST set for the Bradford executive, a 5 coach parcels train, and an aircon mk2 set they are the only long trains, the only other would be the Trans-Pennine rake that I have got but this went via Huddersfield, not Bradford Interchange.

There is a lot to look into for the layout so I am not going to rush into it, I am thinking that the yards slope is the key for the layout so need to get it right, that is what the layout is really about and I need to get it right so it works at exhibitions.

There won't be much done until April, that's when the house refurbishment is completed and I will have just got back from the holiday at Disney in Florida.

TTFN

Simon

[Guest bri.s]

Sounds an interesting project ,I'll be watching with interest I like the idea if the coal yard

 

Brian

[SGJ]

on the picture of the class 31 on Flickr the end of the train has a brake van.

Can anyone tell me what type it is and is there a oo gauge ready to run model of it or a kit version

I have two brake vans, however the brake doesn`t look the same as the Hornby ones that I have.

The Flickr picture looks like this on Paul Bartlett`s site

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brlmsbrakevan/h3bb8032a#h3bb8032a

 

The brake vans that I have bellow

 

 

Regards

SGJ

 

[Happy Hippo]

Telephoto lenses cause a lot of foreshortening.

 

If you look carefully at the picture of the 31 hauled train, you can just make out the horizontal hand rails on the brake van all the rails being picked out in white(ish) paint..

 

The van is the same basic type as those you already own.

[SGJ]

Telephoto lenses cause a lot of foreshortening.

 

If you look carefully at the picture of the 31 hauled train, you can just make out the horizontal hand rails on the brake van all the rails being picked out in white(ish) paint..

 

The van is the same basic type as those you already own.

 

Thanks for pointing that handrail / bar Richard, I can see it now.

I thought it was a bar going across the front of the brake van when I was looking at it before 

SGJ

[SGJ]

I have been on a field trip this morning to the area I am modelling, I will upload the pictures in two parts to try avoid confusion the first upload is this post which is the Bradford Interchange side

The four top photographs are taken from Station Way, then the fifth is a view from Wortley Road, the sixth photo is taken from Wortley road bridge of Whingate bridge, the seventh photo is taken from Whingate bridge of Wortley Road bridge.

 

On the first photo to the right is where the entrance to the coal yard would have been

 

 

This bridge would have had the third line to the cross over.

 

 

 

Whilst out I saw a Class 180 on a empty stock move to Bradford Interchange

 

 

The coal yard line would have been roughly underneath where I am stood

 

 

This is a View taken from Wortley Road looking towards Bradford Interchange, this is the area where the catch points and reverse crossover would have been

 

 

This is a View taken from Whingate Bridge looking towards Wortley Road bridge and Leeds again where the catch points and reverse crossover would have been 

 

 

SGJ

[SGJ]

This second part is from the Carr Crofts bridge are, the Leeds end.

 

The first shot bellow is facing towards Bradford, The Henry Musgrave coal yard would be to the left

 

 

The Building on the right kicked up a stink, it was where the Blakeys Segs factory was that is part of Pennine Casting LTD

The smell from this factory will never leave my memory from being a very young boy

 

 

The concrete retaining wall is an addition to the site but it was done after the demolition of the station, There must have been a wall here before when the station was around because of how the ground work looks, the yard has always been at street level where as the mainline is lower.

 

 

This is Carr Crofts bridge

 

A view of Wortley Road bridge from Carr Crofts shows the bridge is supported by 5 pillars

 

 

The only signal to model is L3085, this signal will protect movements from the yard when the coal train crosses the mainline

 

 

The road here is Carr Crofts Drive, this is where Henry Musgrave`s yard was, roughly where the buildings are in the foreground would have been the two buffer stops at the end of the yard.

If my memory is correct there was a small weighbridge near two old gates, the wall that was surrounding it I think was stone

 

 

 

SGJ

 

[SGJ]

I whilst out today saw what I think is a old NER or LNER building, it is used now by a coach company to spray busses, it is in the site of Armley Moor stations goods area

 

 

SGJ

 

[SGJ]

My new Henry Musgrave wagon is the first wagon bought purposely for the new Carr Crofts layout, it`s on my old Midland Road / Armley Moor layout which is scrapped, it is being dismantled slowly, the wiring has been removed already and the baseboards are separated but its still ok for photography

 

 

 

 

 

[SGJ]

I am a little bit nearer to getting the track plan finished, Blakeys segs, and The Star pub are included in the plan.

 

 

SGJ 

[Mrkirtley800]

Hello SGJ, an interesting project to me, as I knew the area quite well in the 1950's. I lived in Dixon Lane, Wortley but went to Armley Baptist Church in Carr Crofts. Most of my friends lived in the streets off Carr Crofts, it was then full of back to back terraced houses and the streets were the Cedars-- Cedar Road, Terrace etc.

Behind the church was Blakey's factory producing Seggs Shoe Studs. The railway ran less than 50 yards from the church. My girl friend at the time lived on the road to Armley Moor station, and my auntie and uncle had a confectioners shop at Whingare Junction, at the time a junction of tram lines.

I just wish I had taken more notice of the railway, I wasn't too interested at the time, being a sports fan and being more into football and cricket.

Derek

Edited January 27, 2016 by Mrkirtley800

[SGJ]

Hello SGJ, an interesting project to me, as I knew the area quite well in the 1950's. I lived in Dixon Lane, Wortley but went to Armley Baptist Church in Carr Crofts. Most of my friends lived in the streets off Carr Crofts, it was then full of back to back terraced houses and the streets were the Cedars-- Cedar Road, Terrace etc.

Behind the church was Blakey's factory producing Seggs Shoe Studs. The railway ran less than 50 yards from the church. My girl friend at the time lived on the road to Armley Moor station, and my auntie and uncle had a confectioners shop at Whingare Junction, at the time a junction of tram lines.

I just wish I had taken more notice of the railway, I wasn't too interested at the time, being a sports fan and being more into football and cricket.

Derek

I lived on Whitehall Road between Dixon Lane and Royds lane for my first 18 years before moving in with my Girlfriend Vicky ( 23 years later still going strong ), at Upper wortley Primary, and Thornhill one of my best friends lived on the Cedars, She had her birthday parties in her house, I had a crab paste sandwich there and found out not too long after that I was allergic to Crab when I was 8 or 9 going bright red when I got home.

I remember also going to Oxleys with my mum to buy Wool, I had some awesome jumpers when I was young, including one in Regional Railways livery, or provincial Trans-pennine colours when I was about 12.

One of the things I will never forget is the smell from Blakeys, as many have commented on before.

Such fond memories of such happy times

SGJ

[Mrkirtley800]

Coincidences!! I went to Upper Wortley Primary School, then at 13 to the Leeds Central High School. Played cricket on Browns Field and went to the weekly hop at the 'Tin Church'. the local Congretional Church at the top of Silveroid Hill, to meet the ladies. Also used to go to the Pictodrome, a few yards from the railway on Wortley Road.

Blakey's bought out the Baptist Chapel to expand the business, the church moving to, I think, Wesley Road.

Derek

[SGJ]

Coincidences!! I went to Upper Wortley Primary School, then at 13 to the Leeds Central High School. Played cricket on Browns Field and went to the weekly hop at the 'Tin Church'. the local Congretional Church at the top of Silveroid Hill, to meet the ladies. Also used to go to the Pictodrome, a few yards from the railway on Wortley Road.

Blakey's bought out the Baptist Chapel to expand the business, the church moving to, I think, Wesley Road.

Derek

When I was there the Head was Mrs Godfrey, there was an old Teacher too there that I had called Mr Briggs He had been there for a long time, also a dinner lady called Mrs Lamb!

[SGJ]

One of my close friends has suggested altering the fiddle yard to have a bidirectional centre road, I have also added a long road to the outer loop, I think it will work, The outer loop can hold two HST Power cars with 9 trailers so there is plenty of space.

I am still open for idea`s for the layout!

 

 

SGJ

[Mrkirtley800]

Headmaster in my day was a Mr. Watkinson. I spent the last couple of years at the school in the 'overflow accommodation' the Bethel Chapel further down Upper Wortley Road with two teachers Mr. Graham and Mr. Large. I left to go to High School in 1948. I started in 1940 where we had a sticky webbing type tape on the windows to stop the glass shattering in the event of a bomb falling nearby.

In about 1942/43 there was a bombing raid, seemingly the target was the railway near Whingate Junction. A large piece of schrapnel went through the plate glass window of my aunties shop. When I was able I borrowed it to take to school and that was my 30 seconds of fame. All the boys lusted after my piece of schrapnel, but I had to give it back and have no idea what happened to it.

It is all changed now, the trams disappeared around 1950. I won't go on, there are many tales including that of a mischievous parrot.

Derek

[03060]

Only just seen this thread whilst investigating the possibilities for an N-gauge micro layout inspired by Neil Ripley's Carlton Metals layout which always reminded me of the area in Armley that you are modelling. A possible scenic interest for you might be the pigeon lofts that my Grandad (Dennis Evans) had just near the yard entrance back in the early 70's. As I was only 4 or 5 at the time my memories are purely hazy imagery ....but those images are of a run down, overgrown area, access gained between 2 buildings (possibly from under a 'bridged' gateway) from Whingate Junction, my Dad's Alsation guard dog (Dusty) on duty, Grandad's blue Ford Cortina Mk1, coal sidings and 16Tonners. Neil's bakery building on Carlton Metals that triggered these memories must be the Blakey's factory and the high retaining walls and road overbridges are self explanatory from your pictures. I'm seeing my Dad this W/end so I'll see if I can gather any more info, he may even have some photos as he was always interested in railways.

[SGJ]

Only just seen this thread whilst investigating the possibilities for an N-gauge micro layout inspired by Neil Ripley's Carlton Metals layout which always reminded me of the area in Armley that you are modelling. A possible scenic interest for you might be the pigeon lofts that my Grandad (Dennis Evans) had just near the yard entrance back in the early 70's. As I was only 4 or 5 at the time my memories are purely hazy imagery ....but those images are of a run down, overgrown area, access gained between 2 buildings (possibly from under a 'bridged' gateway) from Whingate Junction, my Dad's Alsation guard dog (Dusty) on duty, Grandad's blue Ford Cortina Mk1, coal sidings and 16Tonners. Neil's bakery building on Carlton Metals that triggered these memories must be the Blakey's factory and the high retaining walls and road overbridges are self explanatory from your pictures. I'm seeing my Dad this W/end so I'll see if I can gather any more info, he may even have some photos as he was always interested in railways.

The entrance from whingate junction is at the bottom right in this photo, It looked different when I was young and looks different today too from then.

I really hope your dad has some information, and I will keep my fingers crossed for photo`s too

The photo is of whingate junction and has the road entrance to the freight yard, something that I was surprised about was the allotments in the and around the freight yard but the photos that I have seen are dated 1946.

 

SGJ

 

[03060]

Hi SGJ,

Afraid that my Dad didn't have much to offer, apperently he and my Grandad had fallen out by then so he never went to these pigeon lofts but between him and my Auntie and several pints I did gleen that the entrance to Railway Sidings Allotments was a narrow road between 2 buildings adjacent to a Fina filling staion (not through the underpass I visualised, which I think is visible in your 1940's photo) and there was another exit by Walkers bakery.

My Grandad's lofts were there from 1967 to at least 1977 when he built some new ones in his new backgarden in Rodley when he remarried ....unfortunately we think that his new wife destroyed any possible photos !

 

I was wrong about the guard dog also, in that she was called Tara ....apparently there was a goat tethered up in one of the allotments, Tara managed to get at it one day and killed it, Grandad buried it before the owner found out about it ....who then assumed that it had just escaped !!! Tara had to be chained up from then on ....with which she managed to hang herself from the fence ....now I'd like to see you explain all that in a diorama ! LoL.