January 2016 Railway Modeller - comment piece

[south_tyne]

I was interested to read the comment piece in the January Railway Modeller which was trying to drum up some interest in r-t-r TT. This kind of topic seems to rear up every so often but, once again, all of the comments made by the RM contributer seemed to be sensible and valid. The space saving element on 4mm scale but added bulk on N gauge remains true.

 

I don't want to rake over too much previously discussed ground but, does anyone think that we will ever see the return of commercial ready to run British-outline TT or 3mm scale to any significant level?

 

The age old problems do exist - principally deciding on scale and gauge - but personally I think the sensible option would be to go for a fresh start at 1:120 scale and 12mm gauge.

 

I'd love to see an established manufactuter test the water with maybe a Class 03 or J94 etc and a handful of BR standard wagons in a trainset format... Wishful thinking I imagine but I am sure it would sell.

 

I presume it has been considered again in some quarters but is simply not viable? Triang TT was fantastic at the time, but sadly it is a half-century old niche market now, but is there scope for any kind of 21st Century revival? I for one hope so but I think it might remain a pipedream unfortunately!

 

I don't know whether anyone else has read the piece and has further thoughts or are we simply sick of this being raked over once again!? Apologies if so...

 

David

[tersono]

Having recently started the move from N gauge to OO largely due to a mixture of arthritis in my hands and worsening eyesight, I read the piece with interest. If a decent range of TT R-T-R models were available, I would certainly be modelling in that scale rather than OO. TT has always seemed to be the perfect compromise between size and detail for me.

 

Given the relatively small market, though, I do wonder whether there's enough interest out there to make it worthwhile for a company such as Hornby or Bachmann to invest in all the tooling necessary to get started...

[edcayton]

There was a thread about this on "Simon Says", following SK's blog article on the subject-apparently he tried to persuade Hornby to try such a venture.

 

Ed

[The Stationmaster]

There was a thread about this on "Simon Says", following SK's blog article on the subject-apparently he tried to persuade Hornby to try such a venture.

 

Ed

Hornby looked at it very seriously a couple of years back - but seemingly decided not to go ahead.

[south_tyne]

Thanks for all the replies. I think the basic answer, as expected, seems to be that none of the big players will ever go down the route of 3mm or TT. It is very interesting to hear that Hornby seriously considered it mind - I'd be interested to hear or read more about that if there was anything publically available?

 

I suppose it then begs the question as to whether a smaller player could try something? Given the recent bloom in 009 this could be the way to go? I know it shares the common scale with 00 for any accessories/buildings etc but who would have thought even five years ago that there would be such high quality ready to run British narrow gauge items available from Peco, with the Heljan L&B loco to come too!

 

As an example, look what Minitrains are doing in HOe... although again the market is probably so much larger to support such a venture.

 

Sadly it seems the economics for rtr TT just don't add up but I thought the RM piece continues to 'bang the drum' as it were for those of us who remain hopeful!

[edcayton]

Bear in mind that TT is pretty close to HO which is, of course, the major scale in the rest of the world.

 

Ed

[Moxy]

RTR European outline TT is available from Arnold amongst others, who are somewhat ironically now part of Hornby.....

 

http://www.hornbyinternational.com/en/68-arnold-tt

 

Given that Arnold produced the 'N' gauge 'Brighton Belle' recently, perhaps somebody should be talking to Hornby's German subsiduary about the possibility of British outline TT rather than talking to Hornby in the UK?

 

Just a thought.

 

Regards

 

Moxy

[Revolution Ben]

Hello all,

 

Although I am an N Gauge enthusiast I have always thought that 3mm scale had potential.

 

If starting out now I would be inclined to adopt whatever European/US standards are out there - this would immediately give it an advantage over British N (1:148 when the rest of the world is 1:160) and of course OO when the rest of the world is HO.  

 

Since track is already available, to get it started, since the major manufacturers seem uninterested, perhaps a crowd-funding/subscription scheme is worth considering?  Of course, finding something with enough appeal to get people to sign up to is tough.  

 

For some modern stock (Class 66, 92, Eurostar, some EMUs, various freight vehicles) there might be the possibility of producing models with Europe-wide appeal to improve sales.  Or maybe, to get the ball rolling, something with a bit of collector-appeal like, for example, Tornado?  Or something from the National Collection?

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[pete_mcfarlane]

Isn't the whole point of these niche scales like British TT that nothing is available RTR ,and everything has to be built from kits or scratch? 

[south_tyne]

Isn't the whole point of these niche scales like British TT that nothing is available RTR ,and everything has to be built from kits or scratch?

I understand the viewpoint but kimd of disagree. This hobby is a "broad church" and there is room for every approach. If there is a market for ready to run 3mm then that can only be a good thing for the scale! Just my opinion... but a couple of trainsets would do wonders for the scale. It would not stop those who enjoy kit/scratch building everything from enjoying their hobby but it would also open it up to so many others (yes myself included) who do not have the skill/inclination/time to follow that approach with regard to all aspects of the hobby.

 

I just feel this scale has so much potential in modern homes/life and don't want to see it die. Again, it all comes down to economics/viability though.

[south_tyne]

Hello all,

 

Although I am an N Gauge enthusiast I have always thought that 3mm scale had potential.

 

If starting out now I would be inclined to adopt whatever European/US standards are out there - this would immediately give it an advantage over British N (1:148 when the rest of the world is 1:160) and of course OO when the rest of the world is HO.

 

Since track is already available, to get it started, since the major manufacturers seem uninterested, perhaps a crowd-funding/subscription scheme is worth considering? Of course, finding something with enough appeal to get people to sign up to is tough.

 

For some modern stock (Class 66, 92, Eurostar, some EMUs, various freight vehicles) there might be the possibility of producing models with Europe-wide appeal to improve sales. Or maybe, to get the ball rolling, something with a bit of collector-appeal like, for example, Tornado? Or something from the National Collection?

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

Thanks, interesting thoughts Ben.

 

Scale/gauge is always the issue isn't it... that is why I would suggest that 'continental' TT scale at 1:120 and 12mm gauge COULD be the way to go in this hypothetical world! Given that it is 40/50 years since Triang last produced anything is there not opportunitt for a clean slate (rather than a track gauge of 4' with British TT). I am just musing really...

 

Crowdfunding could be an option, I do not really know enough about it to comment with any expertise mind. As you say, it all boils down.to support and money.

 

More informed people can correct me if I am wrong but, I think there is a 1:120 Class 66 already available from one of the European TT manufacturers... Not certain if there are any accompanying suitable wagons though.

 

David

[Joseph_Pestell]

Bear in mind that TT is pretty close to HO which is, of course, the major scale in the rest of the world.

 

Ed

 

British TT (TT-3) at 1:100 or 101 is "pretty close to HO". Real TT at 1:120 is not.

 

I totally agree with the OP that any new start for UK prototype models should be at 1:120 running on 12mm track. This is a well-supported scale/gauge in mainland Europe and many items could be adapted for a UK layout.

Hornby, even with Arnold as part of its portfolio, seems an unlikely candidate to push this forward. But Piko or Roco might just fancy a slice of the UK action.

[south_tyne]

British TT (TT-3) at 1:100 or 101 is "pretty close to HO". Real TT at 1:120 is not.

 

I totally agree with the OP that any new start for UK prototype models should be at 1:120 running on 12mm track. This is a well-supported scale/gauge in mainland Europe and many items could be adapted for a UK layout.

Hornby, even with Arnold as part of its portfolio, seems an unlikely candidate to push this forward. But Piko or Roco might just fancy a slice of the UK action.

Nice to have someone agree with me for once! The 1:120 route seems most sensible, as you say it also spreads the difference better (poor phrase but hopefully you understand) between HO and N gauge.

 

There is a ready supply of high quality 12mm gauge track produced in Europe and established trade support for the scale, albeit at a much smaller level than HO or N. Such an approach could really kickstart the scale.

[Dunsignalling]

The original Tri-ang TT3 foundered at a time when O Gauge was regarded as more-or-less moribund and British outline N Gauge was still in its infancy. I have long considered that, faced with a clear need to expand the range if it were to thrive, Tri-ang simply decided to stop competing with themselves and concentrate on OO.

 

Any new r-t-r British TT range would have to get off the ground, in what is not a huge market overall, in the face of two very well-established r-t-r scales with O Gauge growing quite healthily, too. It is likely that, even if it became established, such a range would take some years to generate significant profits.

 

Few businesses these days, especially a still-recovering Hornby, would undertake such a venture and uncertainty about what scale/gauge to adopt would be enough to seal its fate.

 

Foreign companies who might once have contemplated diversifying into the UK market have also had problems. At least one has disappeared and the rest will, like Hornby, be concentrating on their core business. 

 

John

[johnarcher]

I suspect that one problem has already become apparent here - we're talking sometimes about 1:120, sometimes 3mm. 1:120 has its advantages, but 3mm has the British outline scenic bits and pieces, wagon kits etc. Which would a UK manufacturer look at?

[Taigatrommel]

A class 66 is coming out in 1:120 (Contintental TT scale).  Perhaps it could trigger a clean slate approach for 21st century outline TT modelling?  After all, the only item from the Triang range with any real use for the contemporary scene is the 31. I'm not aware of any suitable wagons in the ranges of any of the main TT manufacturers, though I'm slowly working on a kit for a type of tank wagon used on both sides of the Channel.  If anyone made chassis kits for the Corgi 1:120 steam locos, that could be a good supporting product.

[johnarcher]

That seems to put paid to the suggestion above that RTR would be good for the scale - would there then be 1:120 RTR, presumably a fairly limited range, but 3mm scale for kits, etc., with no easy cross-over between the two?.

There is a pretty good range of 3mm kits, castings, scenic accessories etc from the 3mm Society 3SMR, Worsley etc - they're not likely to be re-introduced in 1:120, while a British outline 1:120 RTR range would hardly be comprehensive enough not to need any of that stuff - so could we have two wholly separate scales?

 

Personally I think one of the best things about 3mm is that there isn't RTR, so there are still kits for popular prototypes (14xx, Beattie well tank, Terrier) which no longer exist in 4mm as RTR has taken them over..

[grahame]

Although some say TT has the benefits of both N and OO and on the face of it it looks an ideal compromise, when I've looked further the claimed benefits don't hold water, in that it doesn't offer the same ability to get more layout and run long trains in a small space (as N) nor does it have the 'presence' of larger scales (like OO and O). Then with the lack of manufacturer support it comes across as a non starter/runner.

 

It's one of those might have scales. No doubt it would attract more with a better/more comprehensive range available but without more interest is unlikely to attract manufacturer support (especially with so many alternatives already available). Perhaps there being little RTR really is the best thing for TT - a niche and true scratch/model builders scale.

 

G.

[Taigatrommel]

I disagree about the scale advantages over 00/H0.  I can run mainline Inter-city trains (seven 26.4m coaches plus loco) on my TT layout which is 9' x 2'6" continuous run, the length actually limited by the curves at the end meaning the fiddle yard has shorter roads than it might otherwise have.  This layout can fit with three people in an ordinary estate car.  While "presence" is a very subjective matter,  I certainly find I can see the details on my TT stock better than I can on N vehicles and that they don't seem like delicate curiosities the way N can.  As an illustration, here are three similar locos in N (1:160), TT (1:120) and H0 (1:87).

 

 

As for manufacturer support, it's the great unknown.  Until really quite recently 0 was just as much a kit/scratchbuilders scale as British TT, and look at it now!  It just took the first few releases to build up the latent market.  TT, assuming price differentials similar to the continental TT and 0 markets*, would be a lot cheaper and can offer those in smaller houses and who find N too fiddly a chance to have a layout.

 

*Examples:  Tillig V200 (TT) RRP Euro166.90.  MBW V200 (0) RRP Euro799.  Kuehn Silberling (typical coach) (TT) RRP Euro39.99, KISS Silberling (0) RRP Euro350

[Revolution Mike]

Hi Rich

 

Your post reminds me of the oddities of British scales vs European! For example UK N gauge is 1:148 rather than 1:160...which obviously makes it closer to continental TT at 1:120 than British TT at 1:100-ish.

 

This seems to be one of those recurring topics that springs up now and again.  My views (FWIW) are that it would be crazy to stick with 3mm:ft and that the sensible choice would be to go for 1:120 and 12mm track and market it as more accurate than British OO or N! But then my concern is that by the time you have gone to 1:120 are you so far away from British N that you still have much advantage - I'm not convinced!

 

Cheers, Mike

[Taigatrommel]

I don't know whether I'd advocate 1:100 or 1:120, but the reality is that a 66 is coming in 1:120 which might spur some interest.  In general terms, I find TT the ideal scale for me being as small as I'm happy working in and I find it has similar "presence" to 00/H0.  For my German modeling, I'm committed to the scale.  It would be my first choice for Czech outline too.  If British TT (1:100 or 1:120) had the RTR range even 0 currently does for 1980s models, I'd abandon 1:76 scale in a heartbeat.

[johnarcher]

Hi Rich

 

.  My views (FWIW) are that it would be crazy to stick with 3mm:ft and that the sensible choice would be to go for 1:120 and 12mm track and market it as more accurate than British OO or N!

 

Cheers, Mike

It would indeed be more accurate, but as i suggested you would then separate the new stuff from all that is available for British 3mm.  After all most people (in 4mm) probably use a mixture of RTR and some kits etc - yet this would create a situation where someone has 1:120 RTR BR, say, and there's a simple kit for a very suitable wagon yet they can't use it as it's 3mm scale. You would be totally reliant on what the RTR manufacturer felt was worth producing.

[Dunsignalling]

Hi Rich

 

Your post reminds me of the oddities of British scales vs European! For example UK N gauge is 1:148 rather than 1:160...which obviously makes it closer to continental TT at 1:120 than British TT at 1:100-ish.

 

This seems to be one of those recurring topics that springs up now and again.  My views (FWIW) are that it would be crazy to stick with 3mm:ft and that the sensible choice would be to go for 1:120 and 12mm track and market it as more accurate than British OO or N! But then my concern is that by the time you have gone to 1:120 are you so far away from British N that you still have much advantage - I'm not convinced!

 

Cheers, Mike

The difficulty with abandoning 3mm scale is that it is the one used by almost all modellers who have stuck with (or adopted) British TT since the demise of Tri-ang r-t-r. Those that are bothered by scale/gauge proportions go the same way as 4mm scale modellers and widen the track to suit. 

 

Whilst any manufacturer contemplating British-outline r-t-r TT in 3mm scale could expect some support from them, how many might switch from 1:100 scale modelling to 1:120 scale box-opening? Quite possibly fewer than were attracted from the established r-t-r scales.

 

I tend to agree that the relatively small difference between 1:148 British N and 1:120 doesn't offer a great incentive to change. On the contrary, those who have chosen N for lack of space can automatically be excluded.

 

Thus, the main target market must be OO users who desire something smaller but aren't sufficiently hands-on for TT as it currently stands and consider N to be "too small".

 

• Of them, how many would jump from the world of r-t-r plenty that they currently inhabit, to a fledgling 1:120 scale with a limited product range?

• Low initial volumes would inevitably make 1:120 models more expensive than their OO counterparts, how many would accept that? 

• Quite a lot might, like me, fancy a bit of a dabble but would we divert enough funds from our existing interests to make it worth anyone's while? 

• If we did, how many would become sufficiently hooked on the smaller scale to switch properly as it became more established?

• What would the models we purchased be worth if it eventually flopped?

 

Lots of questions, obtaining the answers to which will involve spending a lot of money.

 

So, if I were a model railway manufacturer (based on either side of the channel) would I consider the potential returns justified the risk? On balance, I don't think I would.

 

John

[Revolution Ben]

 

Hello all,

 

From a marketing point I would tend to regard the relatively small number of existing British 1:100 modellers as something of an irrelevance.

 

If you were to seriously consider making TT RTR a commercial reality then you need to be attracting hundreds of new modellers to the scale, and the majority of these are likely to be disillusioned OO modellers or N modellers who want something slightly larger. But they will also need to be convinced to switch, and yet another scale/gauge compromise would be a kliller in my view.

 

For them, a "proper" scale and gauge relationship, with the knowledge of compatibility with other RTR stock, will be a draw.

 

Besides, if we assume at least a loco, some coaches and wagons arriving in 1:120 scale then even 1:100 modellers could run complete trains at 1:120 as long as they don't park them next to their 1:100 models.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[johnarcher]

Compatibility with what other RTR? How many people would need British models to be compatible with Continental ones?

Basically that would be expecting a manufacturer to risk money on creating a new scale from scratch, which wouldn't even have 3mm's advantage of falling neatly between 2 & 4mm scales, but would be only a little bigger than 2mm.  As John said above that seems unlikely.

Would existing 3mm modellers really mix in 1:120 (2.5mm) stock?

 

I reckon it would be  a bit more practical to try 3mm RTR (if people really want it), and, if the inaccurate gauge worries them (understandably, though it's not a lot worse than 00) then keep the scale (and all the 3mm kits, bits etc) and use a better gauge (maybe the Society's 13.5mm?) After all the new RTR would hardly have standards compatible with the old coarse Triang TT wheels and track anyway (or one would hope not).

 

A whole new scale (which 1:120 is in Britain) seems an unlikely commercial adventure.