drax/Hornby biomass wagons

[big jim]

*doubles order*

the kids will be eating asda smart price beans for the forceable future then?

[newbryford]

oh no, he's opened the box and instantly de-valued them!

 

I can see the ebay description now.....

 

Listed as "used", but they are mint condition - only removed from the box to photograph them.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Bezzy Oppo]

Surely if these wang out the door at a great rate of knots at the advertised price 'someone' should be falling over themselves to commission these themselves from scratch, the tooling cost not being so much a concern?

[ruggedpeak]

Surely if these wang out the door at a great rate of knots at the advertised price 'someone' should be falling over themselves to commission these themselves from scratch, the tooling cost not being so much a concern?

As per the  earlier posts and video, Drax own all the IP and designs for these wagons so no one will be commissioning models of them except for Drax.

 

Enough of us have been stung by over-priced Limited Editions being sold off at discount prices to sit this one out. If someone really wants one and is happy with the price then I'd suggest buying them as this will probably be a once only opportunity. Much as I think it is a great model I can't justify £83 for one, but if they were sub £50 I might be tempted. If they sell out and are not done again it is no great shakes for me. What would be an issue is to pay £83 and then find them available at some later date significantly cheaper

[APOLLO]

the kids will be eating asda smart price beans for the forceable future then?

 

WITHOUT sausages !!!!!

 

Brit15

[Islesy]

To clear up one slight misconception, Drax are not the sole IP owner here, which complicated matters slightly - the bogies are of a new design by Axiom and were subject to a seperate licence agreement.

[TFR]

the kids will be eating asda smart price beans for the forceable future then?

Kids? I had to sell them to fund these.

[Roddy Angus]

Already did that!  Still can't afford 1 wagon.

 

Roddy

[Revolution Ben]

Hello all,

 

These wagons look very nice, though it's interesting to see a new price threshold for the British market.

 

In my view there is nothing to stop someone else producing a model of these wagons whether or not they talk to Drax, or Axiom, or anyone.

 

A model is no different to a photograph or a sculpture; it is an artistic interpretation of another item, and its purpose is different.

 

All the patenting and IP rights that Drax, WH Davis and Axiom may have applied for are to give them some legal protection against rivals copying their design or technology.

 

There may be an issue with the copyright protecting the Drax logo, and possibly the colour swooshes on the ends of the wagons, but even this is a grey area, since the primary function of copyright legislation is to prevent "passing off"- ie someone else purporting to be Drax - and I think it unlikely that most would view a tiny model as offering the same service. Beyond that, Drax may well think twice before bothering to go to the courts over such a matter since the potential costs could be significant.

 

You might be in trouble if you trespassed, or committed some other tort, to obtain your facsimile, but as long as you stay on the public side of the fence there is nothing to stop you taking a photograph, creating a sculpture or making a scale model of a piece of railway equipment.

 

Having said that, it is certainly true that working with Drax gives a manufacturer a huge advantage since they will, presumably, be given access to the vehicles for detailed measurements, close up photography, laser scanning etc and possibly CAD diagrams too as well as accurate references for all the colours and graphic designs. It's also useful for marketing. This is the reason that we worked with VTG on our TEA tanker wagon.

 

Edit: Addendum: The thing most likely to discourage another manufacturer from investing in development and tooling is the knowledge that Hornby/Drax could, if they learned of such plans, very quickly manufacture another run and sell at a significantly lower price point, having already amortised their costs in the first run.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

Edited February 6, 2016 by Ben A

[shaunthesheep277]

At the end of the day it's a wagon for our hobby we love

Yes it's pricey (£83.00 a pop), ok they may not all sell and end up being cheaper in the long run

They may not be perfect, you may want one you may not

That's the freedom of choice we have

It's personal choice for me because now and again I often see these behind a class 66 and being into modern times when it comes to modelling they'll fit right in

Who knows what will happen if Hornby/Drax might mass produce them if they are popular

Hey I'm not a real fan when it comes to steam engines in limited editions but I have the option of buying one or not

Don't we all?

[ruggedpeak]

Hello all,

These wagons look very nice, though it's interesting to see a new price threshold for the British market.

In my view there is nothing to stop someone else producing a model of these wagons whether or not they talk to Drax, or Axiom, or anyone.

A model is no different to a photograph or a sculpture; it is an artistic interpretation of another item, and its purpose is different.

All the patenting and IP rights that Drax, WH Davis and Axiom may have applied for are to give them some legal protection against rivals copying their design or technology.

There may be an issue with the copyright protecting the Drax logo, and possibly the colour swooshes on the ends of the wagons, but even this is a grey area, since the primary function of copyright legislation is to prevent "passing off"- ie someone else purporting to be Drax - and I think it unlikely that most would view a tiny model as offering the same service. Beyond that, Drax may well think twice before bothering to go to the courts over such a matter since the potential costs could be significant.

You might be in trouble if you trespassed, or committed some other tort, to obtain your facsimile, but as long as you stay on the public side of the fence there is nothing to stop you taking a photograph, creating a sculpture or making a scale model of a piece of railway equipment..

Ben, I'm not sure that is right. Someone making a model for profit would (subject to seeing the nature of Drax's IP) need permission. As an example, to represent a car or aircraft in a video game requires permission, if the representation is of a real car or plane. If Drax have registered the design then you need permission even for a model, and unless I'm mistaken even a scale model would fall under 'design right', which protect the shape and configuration of the item. The fact that it is 1/76th of the size does not stop it being the same shape and configuration as the full size one, thus automatically protected for at least 10 years. This is different from copyright.

 

I think it likely that anyone producing Drax models without consent will be at real risk of a cease and desist letter, both in terms of the wagon and the logo. Failure to act may put Drax's IP at risk. No court action is required, just a stern letter, unless the infringer continues, and I reckon Drax are better able to afford court than many modelling companies.

 

Regards

[jjb1970]

I sometimes collect model airliners (not in a big way but I like models of airliners I've flown in) and in those sectors licensing has been a big issue for many years with companies being very protective of their image and sometimes do take action against efforts to sell unlicensed models. At one time I think airlines and airframe manufacturers saw it as free goodwill and PR and were happy to support models but then it all changed, now it is all about licensing.

[Hilux5972]

I've just put an order in as well, never did I think I would spend £830 on wagons! but ever since I started seeing them around Colton Junction I knew I wanted models of them.

 

Who will be the first to weather theirs?

 

[Revolution Ben]

unless I'm mistaken even a scale model would fall under 'design right', which protect the shape and configuration of the item. 

 

Interesting - thanks for posting.  The design right specifies a combination of both the shape and configuration of specifically identified items and there are lots of caveats and exceptions.

 

On the prototype these parts are specified to be a particular material and with a specific function; on the model they are just a combination of shapes moulded in plastic.  For example, the roof doors don't actually open; the brake tank is just a solid plastic moulding.  But it's certainly the kind of case that could soak up a lot of expensive legal argument!

 

I do concur that Drax have a strong case when it comes to protecting any use of the graphic elements - the name, typeface and colours/swooshes for example.

 

cheers

Ben A.

[ruggedpeak]

On the prototype these parts are specified to be a particular material and with a specific function; on the model they are just a combination of shapes moulded in plastic.  For example, the roof doors don't actually open; the brake tank is just a solid plastic moulding.  But it's certainly the kind of case that could soak up a lot of expensive legal argument!

I agree! It is a very complex area of law but I think the bottom line is that if Drax (with a £2.8bn turnover) don't want more models made, they are not going to get made!

 

A solution is probably a kit. I'd guess Drax may be more amenable to a kit since it does not challenge their limited edition Hornby wagons, and allows modellers to recreate their trains. Anyone run a kit company? These kits would sell and I'd buy a load.

[ruggedpeak]

I sometimes collect model airliners (not in a big way but I like models of airliners I've flown in) and in those sectors licensing has been a big issue for many years with companies being very protective of their image and sometimes do take action against efforts to sell unlicensed models. At one time I think airlines and airframe manufacturers saw it as free goodwill and PR and were happy to support models but then it all changed, now it is all about licensing.

I'm a little surprised that the likes of General Motors and GE Powerhaul have not done the same with their loco's but perhaps railway modellers are seen in a different light? 

 

Anyway, I think the Drax model is great and am more than a little envious of those who get to buy a full trainload. I've decided that since I can get 8 discounted Hornby MGR's for the same price as one Drax wagon I'll made make a MGR to sit behind my first version Hornby 58001!

Edited February 7, 2016 by ruggedpeak

[No Decorum]

I’m so put off by the price of these that I don’t even bother much about my second objection to them, which is that there are only two running numbers. That is a problem which a kit manufacturer could address.

[Revolution Ben]

I'm a little surprised that the likes of General Motors and GE Powerhaul have not done the same with their loco's but perhaps railway modellers are seen in a different light? 

 

 

Hi Tony,

 

I suspect it is because, as we have said, there is a gap between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law, because interpretation is all and because legislation differs in different territories.  

 

It would cost these companies a lot of money to (a) bring the case (b ) argue the case and convince a judge and © do this in every applicable territory, including China where nearly all of these models are actually made.

 

And what would they gain even if they did win?  Within the model railway community it would be a PR disaster, create a significant loss of goodwill and achieve compensation that would be derisory at best.  And any such payout would probably be outweighed by the cost of bringing the action, since it's quite possible the court would choose not to award costs to a large corporate claimant (plaintiff) taking on a relatively tiny defendant even if they win.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

Edited February 7, 2016 by Ben A

[PaulRhB]

This licensing comes up from time to time, copyright is easy to establish on the livery for Drax but not so clear on the wagon itself unless they have an exclusive agreement the builder can't supply them to anyone else. Most modern models are done with the builders assistance as they have the drawings and frequently get a few models as payment. Eurostar were very tight on licenses meaning no one but Hornby bothered for ages as licensing transfers was so expensive. In America MTH took on Union Pacific and won when they started charging big fees and it's now back to a sensible level where they just approve models in UP livery for a nominal fee.

There's always someone in the marketing department who thinks it's another revenue stream as opposed to a bit of free publicity. The fact they then write threatening solicitors letters stops most people digging into the strength of their claim. MTH had the wealth to challenge a major company but most small manufacturers can't afford to take that risk and even bigger ones like Hornby are wary of taking it on as there's no guarantee. The time lost can kill a project simply because money isn't making a return.

[newbryford]

I’m so put off by the price of these that I don’t even bother much about my second objection to them, which is that there are only two running numbers. That is a problem which a kit manufacturer could address.

 

Why leave it to the kit manufacturers? An enterprising decal manufacturer can soon cure your second problem.

 

It's not really that long ago, where we had to put up with only one livery and one running number. (And in some cases, we still have no choice)

 

Cheers,

Mick

[No Decorum]

Why leave it to the kit manufacturers? An enterprising decal manufacturer can soon cure your second problem.

 

It's not really that long ago, where we had to put up with only one livery and one running number. (And in some cases, we still have no choice)

 

Cheers,

Mick

Fair enough. I’ll admit that one of the great pleasures of modern modelling for me is the variety of running numbers. Available without making a mess of things, which I am more than capable of doing.

[bigherb]

I’m so put off by the price of these that I don’t even bother much about my second objection to them, which is that there are only two running numbers.

Wouldn't bother me. The wagons are so long by the time the third wagon passes I would have forgotten what the first number was.

[newbryford]

Wouldn't bother me. The wagons are so long by the time the third wagon passes I would have forgotten what the first number was.

Or whether it's the correct wagon for the graphics.....

 

Cheers

Mick

[bennyboy]

Wouldn't bother me. The wagons are so long by the time the third wagon passes I would have forgotten what the first number was.

It sounds like your avatar should be a goldfish not a mole!

[Matt]

I'm a little surprised that the likes of General Motors and GE Powerhaul have not done the same with their loco's but perhaps railway modellers are seen in a different

What's the situation with Dapol and class 68? Got impression there was some sort of exclusivity deal here or was that just with Drs regarding livery (which is now available from other manufacturers on other locos).

M