LT King's Cross Mystery Tunnel

[Ray H]

A very interesting thread.

 

The link between the Met and GE at Liverpool Street was used for a while (and may still be) as a (BR) staff dining room and I used it in that capacity in the mid 1960s.

 

There were pre war proposals to link East Finchley (and north thereof) on the Northern line with Finsbury Park (GN), of not the Northern City. The stations were built and I have travelled over the link between Drayton Park and Highgate (LT) on one of the stock transfers previously mentioned. However, this was some time after the Northern City had been truncated at Drayton Park. I can't recall why the link was subsequently closed - possibly either because of a structural problem or in preparation for the re-modelling of Finsbury Park.

[Nearholmer]

Gwiwer

 

On your OT stock moves ........ I saw the Neasden-bound trips on several occasions, running some time early afternoon, IIRC.

 

But, never saw a single working in the opposite direction ....... Did it run at some ungodly hour, or did they start out with thousands of trains on the NCT, and end up with none after ten years?

 

K

[Brian Kirby]

Yes, the railway line to Timbuktu was built in stages, - whoops!, there I go off-topic again. :-)  Many thanks for all the replies so far, but if we could stick to the mysterious black hole at the western end of King's Cross station please!

 

This strange disused double track tunnel truly is a black hole, when it comes to information about it. It's alignment seems to be a continuation of the Widened Lines tunnel, after the GN and Midland have peeled off to the north. Mention has been made of the erstwhile GNR north-to-west tunnel here (that was never used/ or was hardly used, and with no reciprocal west-to-north tunnel), did that aim directly at the westbound Circle Line or else perhaps into our mystery tunnel? If our tunnel wasn't going to the LNWR, could it be a planned relief tunnel to the Circle/Met or maybe an unfinished connection into Somers Town goods yard? Does anyone know when the two tunnels were breached and the goods loop put in, obviously an afterthought, why else would our mystery tunnel carry on westwards? Was our tunnel ever used for wartime storage? Presumably our mystery tunnel was built by cut-and-cover, like it's Circle/Met sister tunnel alongside, and maybe around the time St.Pancras station was built, right alongside it? Could it be something to do with Edward Watkin/GCR and his ambitions to get to the coast via the Thames Tunnel? They did plan to run trains from the GC via the Met and SE&CR via this route, wasn't he involved with these other two companies as well?

 

                                                                   Cheers, Brian.

[Derekstuart]

Brian

I'm sorry you found the related discussion irrelevant. I would have thought it was all quite well related myself, but as the one who sparked the "off topic" conversation I apologise. One thing I have learned in respect of railway archaeology is that sometimes narrowing your focus to only what you consider to be immediately relevant often means you miss clues from other related subjects. (as someone who has spent the past nearly 2 years forensically analysing a location I found the hard way that sometimes looking at other in-directly related subjects would enable me to put two and two together and answer the question I originally stumbled on).

 

If anyone would like to follow up on the rest of the tunnels, I have opened a new thread.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/107103-the-various-north-london-tunnels-between-euston-kc-and-liverpool-street/

Edited January 14, 2016 by Derekstuart

[Nearholmer]

Narrowing focus:

 

"....... it was suggested to me that the alignment was aimed at joining the Euston LNWR lines to the Widened Lines, but was never completed?"

 

That is exactly what my good friend surrounded by archive material believes. And, his knowledge is immense and deep.

 

But, I'm with DS on mild-off-topickery (which, by local standards, is what you have experienced): it often opens up who new avenues, and gives useful clues.

 

Kevin

[roythebus]

Was that one of the Lane brothers?

I can't remember, but that name doesn't sound familiar. ISTR he was known as Harry the Hat.

[roythebus]

To add a bit more, the connection at Liverpool Street between the Circle and the GE tunnel was indeed used as an LT canteen for bus staff and probably others in my time on the Underground in the 1970's.

 

The Finsbury Park connection was dismantled as the bridge over the GN had to come out to make way for the OHLE. Fourth rails were laid on much of the Northern Heights route, including to Ally Pally, along with all the cabling.

 

I'd suggest asking the original question on the District Dave website in the "historic" section. This matter has been discussed to death on there, including the Northern Heights and Moorgate-Drayton Park-Finsbury Park line, along with a good item on the depot and connections, photos and cine film too!

 

The York Way curve was visible from the shop next door to 14 York Way, a place with which Brian and myself are familiar! I had to go there a few years ago with my son to collect some stuff from a back room on the top floor. Looking out and down, the ventilation hole in the tunnel was clearly visible.

 

I've worked on the Widened Lines, the Northern city Line when it was being rebuilt, as well as the Circle as guard, driver and secondman so have had a good view of the blackness of all those tunnels. I still wonder where all the bits led to.

 

I'd also suggest the Harsig diagrams are incomplete as they don't show the loco spur at Farringdon that was used to keep an 08 as banker for the Widened Lines.

[russ p]

I spoke to friend today who was a driver at king's Cross. He says that when going down the York way tunnel there was evidence of a blocked tunnel which would have been the short lived north to west curve

[Brian Kirby]

I certainly never regarded anything as irrelevant, I agree that all sorts of info snippets can be picked up through discussion, but the topic was going way off target. Meanwhile, I've found a reference to this tunnel in the book "Steam On The Widened Lines" (Vol.1) by Geoff Goslin. On page 57 he states:

         "In 1926 a single track was laid from the outer rail of the Circle Line at King's Cross to the Up Widened Line which was electrified through to Moorgate. This enabled trains from the outer rail to reach the terminal bays at Moorgate, without crossing the inner rail on the level. The link at King's Cross made use of a previously un-used tunnel, built in 1868 as part of an abortive scheme to connect the LNWR to the Widened Lines. The facility was used by electric trains from 15th March 1926, until preparatory work on the re-siting of King's Cross Circle Line station involved (engineer's) possession of the link from 27 April 1935.".

         Thus we learn that the LNWR was the most likely target of the mystery tunnel, the loop wasn't only for freight and had fourth rail power supply, three of the four tracks were electrified from KX to Moorgate for ten years between 1926 and 1935 (a similar situation to the North London Line for a time). I would suggest that Met 'T' stock from Metroland to Moorgate were the most likely trains using the loop and GN/Mid service track, both in service and as ECS. This also explains the provision of extra crossovers at Moorgate before WW2. As far as I can see, two questions remain, how far does the unused mystery tunnel run under Euston Road to the west, and how did it relate to the sole north-to-west curve from the GN?

 

                                                                               Cheers, Brian.

[johnb]

Narrowing focus:

 

"....... it was suggested to me that the alignment was aimed at joining the Euston LNWR lines to the Widened Lines, but was never completed?"

 

That is exactly what my good friend surrounded by archive material believes. And, his knowledge is immense and deep.

 

But, I'm with DS on mild-off-topickery (which, by local standards, is what you have experienced): it often opens up who new avenues, and gives useful clues.

 

Kevin

I can't locate the book at present but I have 'somewhere' a 1960s underground book which refers to this tunnel amd comments something like :- "The Circle line outer rail was diverted into an unused tunnel at Kings X bored in 18-'something' to link the Widened  Lines to Euston, but which was never completed."

 

Just my pennyworth to this interesting debate.

 

John

[russ p]

Is there enough room for another tunnel under Euston road with the met line being under it

If there was a tunnel to the LNW where was it to come out?

[Brian Kirby]

Yes Roy, I well remember the bricked-lined open cutting behind the KX shop, apparently you can walk directly over it now, within the new shopping complex. To be fair to Harsig, his two Widened Lines plans are dated 1926 and 1956 respectively, I believe the banking loco siding located at the north end of Farringdon came later, presumably after the trackwork to the GN/LNER goods depot (closed in 1956) was swept away. Does anyone know precisely when the new siding went in? I seem to remember the siding was rather unorthodox, having a direct facing link from the northbound track, plus the expected trailing connection for buffering up southbound, the siding was also rather inclined too.

  To answer earlier suggestions, yes I'd already checked out the Disused Stations, Abandoned Stations and District Dave websites, but didn't find much on our tunnel, plus I had a brief look at London Reconnections, but the info is probably buried in various threads. Thanks for the idea though. 

 

                                                                                                 Cheers, Brian.

[Swindon 123]

One early morning when spare at Kings Cross I walked the tunnel from York Road down to KX Thameslink station, (after it had stopped being used as an access tunnel so 1983/4ish). The North to West tunnel was there and possible to enter and walk down, after climbing over the pile of spoil left there. I don't know if any trains ran over it, but I do remember the imprints of sleepers still in parts of the tunnel. I can't remember if the LT end was blocked up, but I would guess it was, as it would have come out somewhere around KX circle line station platforms and there was no sign of it there. I remember the Circle line to platform 1 connection at Liverpool Street. You used to be able to see the LT end from passing Circle line trains, and I drove enough trains into Platform 2 at Liverpool street and remember the bricked up tunnel mouth. I believe the gymnasium and associated small bar at Liverpool Street station was inside the old connecting tunnel.

 

Paul J.

[Brian Kirby]

If the tunnel was aimed at joining the LNWR near Euston, my best bet would be that the tunnel would emerge at that strangely vacant plot on the eastern side of the LNWR, just north of Hampstead Road and Granby Terrace, where the 1950s signal box used to stand, this spot would also be handy for accessing the dive-under just north of there. If so, the tunnel from KX would need to curve NW, once clear of the new St.Pancras station and run diagonally under what became St.Pancras goods yard, later known as Somers Town goods yard. I would presume the tunnel was killed off with the advent of the alternative LNWR access to The City, via the NLR to Broad Street? The LNWR already had direct access to South London via the West London Line, so the KX tunnel link would be regarded as unnecessary expense and possibly more congested south of KX?

 

                                                                      Cheers, Brian.

[roythebus]

ISTR reading that it was supposed to join the LNWR in the labyrinth of tunnels at Camden.

 

Mentioning cross-London stuff, there was a 1912 LBSCR timetable copied on the Kings Cross/Top shed Facebook page last week showing the service from Victoria to High Barnet via Holborn and Finsbury Park, and similar services to New Barnet on the GN main line. amazing what used to be!

[Gwiwer]

If the tunnel was aimed at joining the LNWR near Euston, my best bet would be that the tunnel would emerge at that strangely vacant plot on the eastern side of the LNWR, just north of Hampstead Road and Granby Terrace, where the 1950s signal box used to stand, this spot would also be handy for accessing the dive-under just north of there. If so, the tunnel from KX would need to curve NW, once clear of the new St.Pancras station and run diagonally under what became St.Pancras goods yard, later known as Somers Town goods yard. I would presume the tunnel was killed off with the advent of the alternative LNWR access to The City, via the NLR to Broad Street? The LNWR already had direct access to South London via the West London Line, so the KX tunnel link would be regarded as unnecessary expense and possibly more congested south of KX?

 

                                                                      Cheers, Brian.

 

This is probably getting close to the truth of the matter.  

 

I introduced the "off-topic" Liverpool Street link by way of a nearby equivalent and a comparison to show that such things were planned and part-built but not necessarily completed.  If we look at a slightly bigger picture we can sometimes answer the original question and so it appears in this case.  The original owners built, or had intended to build, more connections with London's main-line railways than were ever completed or used.

[roythebus]

Slightly off-topic but maybe not for the other thread on tunnels: Some of the other "never used" tunnels/powers/proposals were on the Aldwych branch. I have the Parliamentary papers somewhere dated 1963 enabling powers to build a railway from Aldwych to under Arch xxx at Waterloo. This was part of the Victoria Line powers, but of course the extension to Waterloo was never built. I put the full text of that on the District Dave site a few years ago.

[Edwin_m]

There was an interesting article on the Kings Cross area that used to be on the Internet, from Railway Magazine in the 1960s and written by "Fowlers Ghost".  Google doesn't now find it so it may havebeen taken down, but it does find references to the actual issues of RM. 

[2mm Andy]

I spoke to friend today who was a driver at king's Cross. He says that when going down the York way tunnel there was evidence of a blocked tunnel which would have been the short lived north to west curve

 

I think I caused a bit of confusion in my earlier post. About halfway down the York Road Curve tunnel there is a second tunnel curving off to the right (as you head South towards Farringdon) - that is the former North-West curve which was apparently only used for a couple of years in the 1860s, and seems to have been known as the Maiden Lane Curve. It was filled-in with spoil for many years, but has recently been cleaned out apart from the blocked-up section at the South end (some of my work colleagues had the job of inspecting it a couple of years ago).

 

Hotel curve was further across to the West, and ran from the front of KX along the back of the Great Northern Hotel to emerge alongside the suburban platforms on the West side of KX.

 

Edit - I've found an interesting photo/diagram which shows just what a rabbit warren it is in the KX area;

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ianvisits/5995176612/

 

I have no knowledge of any connection to the LNW at Euston.

 

Andy

Edited January 14, 2016 by 2mm Andy

[Brian Kirby]

ISTR reading that it was supposed to join the LNWR in the labyrinth of tunnels at Camden.

 

Mentioning cross-London stuff, there was a 1912 LBSCR timetable copied on the Kings Cross/Top shed Facebook page last week showing the service from Victoria to High Barnet via Holborn and Finsbury Park, and similar services to New Barnet on the GN main line. amazing what used to be!

If you mean the various dive-unders and flyovers at Primrose Hill, one little snaggipoos, is that they weren't built for nearly another 50 years after our 1868 mystery tunnel.

 

I've also recently found reference to those pre-WW1 services, how extrordinary, the services from Victoria and points south to various GN and Midland destinations were apparently quite frequent, not only that the trains were supplied by the GN, the Midland, the SER and even the LCDR, all the way to places that are now on the Northern Line.  All of this was eventually killed off by the trams and the new deep-level tubes. There was also even a service from Moorgate westwards to East Ham, which would be a very circular route. Shame they never finished our mystery tunnel, a service from London Bridge to Willesden Junction via KX would have been useful.  BK

[Gwiwer]

 

 

There was also even a service from Moorgate westwards to East Ham, which would be a very circular route.

 

And for which the bay platform is still perfectly clear and visible at East Ham on the northern side at the east end.  Those trains were routed Moorgate - Kentish Town - along what we now call the GOBLIN line to Woodgrange Park then around a curve which is defined by the alignment of Shakespeare Crescent, Manor Park.  Subsequently they ran only to and from Kentish Town and ultimately were withdrawn in favour of the Barking service.

[Gwiwer]

 

I've found an interesting photo/diagram which shows just what a rabbit warren it is in the KX area;

 

https://www.flickr.c...its/5995176612/

 

I have no knowledge of any connection to the LNW at Euston.

 

Of interest there are the north-west curve (marked as "Maiden (?) Lane Blind Curve) between the York Road alignment and the Widened Lines and the superimposition of the Northern Booking Hall over the former Hotel Curve.  There is no indication of the "LNWR link", though the wide tunnel mouth is in any case just off the diagram, but as I understand it the tunnel entrance is just that and it doesn't extend for any appreciable distance.  

 

The position and direction of the alignment would have had such a line running beneath Somers Town Goods as was mentioned above then approximately beneath where Drummond Crescent now is to join the LNWR probably at the foot of Camden Bank just outside Euston station.  Such a route would have been built cut and cover as were almost all the early underground lines.  

 

The line marked "Northern Loop" is a non-passenger link between Northern and Piccadilly lines used for occasional stock transfers and engineering trains.

Edited January 14, 2016 by Gwiwer

[jamie92208]

I think I caused a bit of confusion in my earlier post. About halfway down the York Road Curve tunnel there is a second tunnel curving off to the right (as you head South towards Farringdon) - that is the former North-West curve which was apparently only used for a couple of years in the 1860s, and seems to have been known as the Maiden Lane Curve. It was filled-in with spoil for many years, but has recently been cleaned out apart from the blocked-up section at the South end (some of my work colleagues had the job of inspecting it a couple of years ago).

 

Hotel curve was further across to the West, and ran from the front of KX along the back of the Great Northern Hotel to emerge alongside the suburban platforms on the West side of KX.

 

Edit - I've found an interesting photo/diagram which shows just what a rabbit warren it is in the KX area;

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ianvisits/5995176612/

 

I have no knowledge of any connection to the LNW at Euston.

 

Andy

Thanks very much for posting that link, it shows a host of interesting features. It also gives a name to the North to west curve The Maiden Lane Blind Curve. That at least gives me some good information. It also shows the connection between the northern and Piccadily lines that is used I believe for engineering moves and stock transfers

 

Jamie

Edited January 14, 2016 by jamie92208

[Nick Holliday]

ISTR reading that it was supposed to join the LNWR in the labyrinth of tunnels at Camden.

 

Mentioning cross-London stuff, there was a 1912 LBSCR timetable copied on the Kings Cross/Top shed Facebook page last week showing the service from Victoria to High Barnet via Holborn and Finsbury Park, and similar services to New Barnet on the GN main line. amazing what used to be!

Any chance of a link to that timetable? I knew the SECR had an extensive service north of the river over the GNR lines, but I wasn't aware of the LBSCR doing something similar, apart from a short lived service to Paddington, via the West London Extension, and to Liverpool Street via the East London line.

[Nearholmer]

I think there might be a confusion between LCDR and LBSCR going on here, but I will be very interested indeed if it does prove to be LBSCR.

 

K

 

Ps: Nick, have you looked at the tile maps of LBSCR services at Victoria, especially how the suburban on shows the East London Line route?

Edited January 15, 2016 by Nearholmer