LT King's Cross Mystery Tunnel

[simon b]

What's the south-most (left-most on your map) platform at the underground station?

That's platform 3 of the met station. It was taken out of use in the 80's and is now forming part of crossrail.

[russ p]

What are those lines coming out from under broad street?

[simon b]

What are those lines coming out from under broad street?

Those lines form part of broad street goods depot lower level, this made use of the space under the station itself.

 

Edited December 13, 2017 by simon b

[iands]

Derek

 

Two rough sketches, first of which shows the situation that I am fairly sure matches the engraving.

 

Second one shows the situation only a few years later, once the widened lines had been punched through the area.

 

I would be grateful for others' views as to whether I've got this about right - would be unfair to pester my archivist colleague with it at the weekend!

 

Kevin

I can't remember if I read this somewhere, or was told it by someone, but after Albert died Queen Victoria didn't want to be seen in public for quite a while. So to save having to change trains, or get out of a horse drawn carriage at a station and on to the train, (and be stared at by the masses) a new "tunnel" was excavated to allow the "through working" of the Royal Train from (I presume Windsor area) to Sandringham (or the nearest station). I don't know if this tunnel was in the Kings Cross area or Liverpool Street area. Is anyone else aware of this "story", if so could the tunnel in the sketch be related to this story?

 

Regards, Ian.

[jamie92208]

I can't remember if I read this somewhere, or was told it by someone, but after Albert died Queen Victoria didn't want to be seen in public for quite a while. So to save having to change trains, or get out of a horse drawn carriage at a station and on to the train, (and be stared at by the masses) a new "tunnel" was excavated to allow the "through working" of the Royal Train from (I presume Windsor area) to Sandringham (or the nearest station). I don't know if this tunnel was in the Kings Cross area or Liverpool Street area. Is anyone else aware of this "story", if so could the tunnel in the sketch be related to this story?

 

Regards, Ian.

She certainly used the connection from Waterloo to Waterloo East to enable her to get to Dover from Windsor.  The tracks across the concourse lasted until Waterloo was rebuilt.

 

Jamie

[Nearholmer]

Albert died in 1861, the kings cross tunnel dates from c1864, Liverpool Street c1874, so I’d think the story might be attached to the Kings across one, but probably attached by a romanticist, rather than a strict historian.

[Edwin_m]

I can't remember if I read this somewhere, or was told it by someone, but after Albert died Queen Victoria didn't want to be seen in public for quite a while. So to save having to change trains, or get out of a horse drawn carriage at a station and on to the train, (and be stared at by the masses) a new "tunnel" was excavated to allow the "through working" of the Royal Train from (I presume Windsor area) to Sandringham (or the nearest station). I don't know if this tunnel was in the Kings Cross area or Liverpool Street area. Is anyone else aware of this "story", if so could the tunnel in the sketch be related to this story?

 

Regards, Ian.

Wouldn't the break of gauge have caused something of a problem if the route was via the GWR? 

[Nearholmer]

Rambling on a bit......

 

We tend to forget that, prior to electrification in the early 1900s, the Met and District were for all practical purposes integrated parts of the national railway network, and that through workings over the Inner Circle were both a part of ordinary schedules, and used for lots of special workings.

 

An interesting one was when Gladstone's body was carried by direct train from his home in Shropshire to Westminster, for 'lying in state'.

 

Snippet from Times report below, lifted from an on-line blog, which, if you find it, needs to be treated with caution, in that it seems to mix up LNWR Hardwicke Class loco "Gladstone", which pulled the train while on LNWR metals, possibly all the way to Westminster, with LBSCR loco "Gladstone", which I'm not sure pulled the train at all.

 

"Rugby was made at 10:40, and at this point an extraordinary scene was witnessed. The platform was densely packed with people, and as the train passed slowly through the station the solemn strains of the Dead March in Saul were distinguished floating upon the stillness of the air into the silent night. Nothing more deeply impressive can be imagined than the sight of this vast assemblage watching bareheaded the passage of the train while the band rolled out the massive tones of Handel’s stately and awe-inspiring music.

The rest of the journey was uneventful. Willesden was reached at 12:29 this morning, and the train was there taken on to the high level of the London and North-Western Railway and run to Addison-road, which station was reached at 12:43. At Earl’s Court it passed on to the District Railway, where it was received by Sir Charles Dalrymple, M.P., director, and Mr Powell, manager. It ran thence to Westminster-Bridge Station, arriving there at two minutes past 1 o’clock."

 

(This was one o'clock in the morning)

[Nearholmer]

Edwin

 

It would be worth finding out where dual-gauge went and when; I have a feeling that the Windsor branch might have been dual gauge quite early. I think it might have been c1861, because the main line into Paddington was dual-gauged then.

 

As an aside, there is a really cracking painting of a Broad Gauge express on the London side of Reading, dated 1870, and that is running over dual gauge track. There is an SER train in the far background, so I'm pretty sure that the GWR train is London side of the junctions.

 

There must be a GWR expert here present who knows all the dual-gauging dates for certain.

 

Kevin

Edited December 14, 2017 by Nearholmer

[melmerby]

Edwin

 

It would be worth finding out where dual-gauge went and when; I have a feeling that the Windsor branch might have been dual gauge quite early.

 

Kevin

New in broad gauge 1849, mixed 1862, standard 1883 according to Col Cobb's atlas

It's a great book for such info.

 

Keith

 

EDIT by 1863, when the Met was built, the GWR had lost the gauge war and even the route out of Paddington was mixed gauge., but they persisted with broad gauge trains (until 1892)

Edited December 14, 2017 by melmerby

[The Stationmaster]

Edwin

 

It would be worth finding out where dual-gauge went and when; I have a feeling that the Windsor branch might have been dual gauge quite early. I think it might have been c1861, because the main line into Paddington was dual-gauged then.

 

As an aside, there is a really cracking painting of a Broad Gauge express on the London side of Reading, dated 1870, and that is running over dual gauge track. There is an SER train in the far background, so I'm pretty sure that the GWR train is London side of the junctions.

 

There must be a GWR expert here present who knows all the dual-gauging dates for certain.

 

Kevin

 

The Directors of the GWR issued a special report on 18 October 1860 regarding the estimated cost of installing additional rails to allow narrow gauge trains to run east of Reading to Paddington and including the branches to Brentford and Windsor.  The report, including the estimated costs, was accepted by a specially convened meeting of the shareholders which took place on 28 November 1860 which authorised the directors to apply to Parliament for powers to raise the necessary additional capital.

 

Laying of the additional rails commenced in May 1861.  it was reported on 19 August that year, in the Half Yearly Report that 'the work was very nearly completed on the Main Lines it being estimated that the work on sidings and including the Windsor branch would take. a further four to six months.  in fact an inspection run from Reading using a narrow gauge engine reached Platform 8 at Paddington on 21 August 1861. The service of narrow gauge passenger trains to/from Paddington commenced on 1 October 1861 these being through trains to/from the territory of the West Midland Railway.

 

The Windsor branch was able to handle narrow gauge trains from the spring of 1862 including the West (Bath Road) Curve at slough.  In April of that year a train conveying Queen Victoria from Windsor to Scotland made use of the new narrow gauge rails on the Windsor branch but I cannot find anything about its route beyond the branch.

 

For followers of lesser railways you should note that in the GWR context the term 'narrow gauge' refers to the gauge favoured by George Stephenson and various other civil engineers for the construction of various railway trunk routes etc.  The GWR continued to use the term 'narrow gauge' until the final abolition of the Brunel gauge in 1892.

Edited December 14, 2017 by The Stationmaster

[Nearholmer]

Truly authoritative.

 

It leads me to believe that Stationmaster was actually present at the Board meetings. Can that be true?

[keefer]

I heard he still has his frock coat, top hat and mutton chops but he only uses them for special occasions

[faa77]

I can't remember if I read this somewhere, or was told it by someone, but after Albert died Queen Victoria didn't want to be seen in public for quite a while. So to save having to change trains, or get out of a horse drawn carriage at a station and on to the train, (and be stared at by the masses) a new "tunnel" was excavated to allow the "through working" of the Royal Train from (I presume Windsor area) to Sandringham (or the nearest station). I don't know if this tunnel was in the Kings Cross area or Liverpool Street area. Is anyone else aware of this "story", if so could the tunnel in the sketch be related to this story?

 

Regards, Ian.

 

Maiden Lane Curve?

[The Stationmaster]

Truly authoritative.

 

It leads me to believe that Stationmaster was actually present at the Board meetings. Can that be true?

 

I have a good, and reliable source for some of this stuff.  Even more amusing is another document I have which is in respect of signalling work orders and authorities and I was enthralled to note from one page that the signalling work in connection with the removal of the broad gauge between Exeter and Newton Abbot in 1892 cost more than had been authorised and retrospective authority had to be given for the additional expenditure.  So there's nothing new in the railway world - even when it comes to schemes going over budget.

I heard he still has his frock coat, top hat and mutton chops but he only uses them for special occasions

 

Many a true word - because if only I could find there was at one time in a signalbox on my patch what was obviously a print of a copperlate engraving of a gentleman so attired viewing the latest in signalboxes, one which actually had interlocking.  However it had been slightly amended to ensure that said gentleman bore a considerable resemblance to me (although by then the mutton chop whiskers I had sported in the late 1960s had been replaced by a beard - which is now distinctly white)

Edited December 15, 2017 by The Stationmaster

[adanapress]

Going back to the original subject,  much of this discussion has been about the  trains coming from the North,  via the special York Road  platform,  but what about the return services Northbound via platform 16 on the Surbuban side.   The gradient was horrendous, and restarting from stop often produced violent slipping in both steam and diesel days. .

[Siberian Snooper]

Going back to the original subject,  much of this discussion has been about the  trains coming from the North,  via the special York Road  platform,  but what about the return services Northbound via platform 16 on the Surbuban side.   The gradient was horrendous, and restarting from stop often produced violent slipping in both steam and diesel days. .

There's a thread on here about the KX suburban platforms.

[keefer]

A video on YouTube by an authorised contractor walking the tunnels from York Rd. to Moorgate.

 

Around 2:35 onwards, the tunnel splits with the N-W Maiden Lane Curve going off to the right.

 

EDIT: didn't realise but it has probably already been posted as Chris P Bacon posted it in the King's Cross Suburban thread last year.

Edited August 9, 2020 by keefer

[russ p]

4 hours ago, keefer said:

A video on YouTube by an authorised contractor walking the tunnels from York Rd. to Moorgate.

 

Around 2:35 onwards, the tunnel splits with the N-W Maiden Lane Curve going off to the right.

 

EDIT: didn't realise but it has probably already been posted as Chris P Bacon posted it in the King's Cross Suburban thread last year.

 

I wonder if that maiden lane curve is used for road access to the met line?

[simon b]

1 hour ago, russ p said:

 

I wonder if that maiden lane curve is used for road access to the met line?

The maiden lane curve was blocked off at it's western end when the widened lines were put in, the only thing down there now is water and rubble. 

Edited August 9, 2020 by simon b

[russ p]

1 hour ago, simon b said:

The maiden lane curve was blocked off at it's western end when the widened lines were put in, the only thing down there now is water and rubble. 

 

Was that the other side of hotel curve which it crossed on the level, how far can you get down it?

[simon b]

1 hour ago, russ p said:

 

Was that the other side of hotel curve which it crossed on the level, how far can you get down it?

It crossed hotel curve with a diamond crossing a short distance before connecting with the met/circle lines, all 4 tracks leading to the diamond were in separate tunnels. When the widened lines were built the tunnel was ran through the site of the diamond crossing, hotel curve was realigned to connect with the new tracks whilst maiden lane tunnel (which was out of use by this time) was closed off by the new tunnel wall.

 

I've not been all the way down to the end of maiden lane tunnel as it is not safe to do so, but it should stop only a few meters from the newer tunnel. 

[Nearholmer]

Waaay back in this thread, I sketched the layout before and after the Widened Lines.

 

K

[jim.snowdon]

2 hours ago, simon b said:

The maiden lane curve was blocked off at it's western end when the widened lines were put in, the only thing down there now is water and rubble. 

My understanding of the history of that part of the Metropolitan is that the Widened Lines were built almost contemporaneously with the main Metropolitan lines. At that time the west facing curve still existed. What would have changed things was the much later extension of the Widened Lines tunnel westwards towards Euston, used as an eastbound connection for freight services from the Circle to the Widened Lines. It is now used as the eastbound Circle line platform at the present day Kings Cross & St Pancras station. (The central concourse tunnel is the original Metropolitan bore.) What that connection did was to provide a less disruptive route for the Smithfield-bound meat trains from the Great Western. 

 

Jim

[simon b]

1 hour ago, jim.snowdon said:

My understanding of the history of that part of the Metropolitan is that the Widened Lines were built almost contemporaneously with the main Metropolitan lines. At that time the west facing curve still existed. What would have changed things was the much later extension of the Widened Lines tunnel westwards towards Euston, used as an eastbound connection for freight services from the Circle to the Widened Lines. It is now used as the eastbound Circle line platform at the present day Kings Cross & St Pancras station. (The central concourse tunnel is the original Metropolitan bore.) What that connection did was to provide a less disruptive route for the Smithfield-bound meat trains from the Great Western. 

 

Jim

Yes and no. 

 

The maiden lane curve was closed in 1865, but it was the tunnel to the midland railway that claimed the crossing trackbed in 1868.