“WASHBOURNE”

[Northroader]

 

Ooohh, and their 2-4-0s, eh? Did you ever???

(edit: I’ve found a better picture, it was, after all, the prettiest engine the LMS ever possessed)

Edited April 10, 2021 by Northroader

[Irish Padre]

Radiant, sir.

[Northroader]

We’ve got to get him off all those D299 wagons somehow, Father.

[Northroader]

Here’s one for Simon, after a bit more digging, with a gauge of 63/64” Kilbrandon Junction:

http://www.s-scale.org.uk/gallery15.htm

[Donw]

I remember an article on building a 7mm model of Agadeen in MRN probably on 32mm gauge with a drawing. I may even have kept the drawing.

 

Don

[Compound2632]

5 hours ago, Northroader said:

 

Ooohh, and their 2-4-0s, eh? Did you ever???

(edit: I’ve found a better picture, it was, after all, the prettiest engine the LMS ever possessed)

 

But that one not a compound, I think.

 

5 hours ago, Northroader said:

We’ve got to get him off all those D299 wagons somehow, Father.

 

I'm on the wagon.

[Regularity]

4 hours ago, Northroader said:

Here’s one for Simon, after a bit more digging, with a gauge of 63/64” Kilbrandon Junction:

As Paul Greene has pointed out, that works our as 25mm gauge!

[Northroader]

But doing things in sixtyfourths of an inch must be the key to why you never see a poor S scale layout?

[Regularity]

On 10/04/2021 at 19:03, Northroader said:

But doing things in sixtyfourths of an inch must be the key to why you never see a poor S scale layout?

Appropriately enough, this is page 64!

 

I fear I must correct you on this. We use gauges for track and flangeways, and wheel back to back, with a standard tyre profile. Although not exactly 1/64 of the prototype, our track and wheel standards are as close as is practicably possible, in terms of engineering tolerances. One advantage we had was that even the coarse track gauge is ⅞”, or 4’8” scale: more accurate than 0 or EM.

This means that we start off with the correct track gauge and wheels which look right, but this is all predetermined by the tooling: it is, however, one of two important ingredients to your observation.

 

Beyond that, if we know a dimension, we usually work to a lot finer tolerances that 1/64” (Vernier and digital callipers help for smaller stuff) but at the end of the day the proportions and shape are the most important determinants of what looks right - if it looks right, it probably is right, or at least right enough.

 

This all comes from Charles Wynne, who decided that he would work to within a scale inch of the prototype dimension, back in 1919. This is the first example I have found of a conscious attempt to define standards: not the toy-like “pizza cutters”, neither the model engineering approach of to with the fabled “half a thousandth of an inch”, but a  clear and indeed clear-sighted approach which I think is worthy of being called the first definition of “finescale”. If we take this definition as being as good a starting point as any, then “finescale” is older than 00, H0, TT, N etc, and already 102! Sadly, none of the model press was particularly interested in promoting this centenary, not even the one which purports to be supportive of finescale.
 

“Exact scale”, as well as being impossible (you cannot scale a running clearance, and you need to take account of various laws of physics which may apply to volume and area in a non-linear manner), tends to produce exquisite models, but sometimes at the expense of a “cherished” feeling. I think it is this the other factor: a finescale approach means that we don’t go overboard on perfection, and the odd rough corner makes the layouts seem more alive.

 

I tend to waffle on about this a lot on my blog: if shape, proportion and colour are they key inputs to scale verisimilitude, then a finescale approach of defining your tolerances (both in terms of engineering accuracy and how closely a model resembles a prototype) leads to great results, but it has to be consistently applied. 
 

Consistency is the third of my two ingredients...

[F-UnitMad]

1 hour ago, Regularity said:

Consistency is the third of my two ingredients...

Getting perilously close to a Monty Python sketch, there....

[Regularity]

Good grief! I wasn’t expecting the... ...Spanish influenza.

[Northroader]

Don has already highlighted the next step in the saga, Cyril Fry’s layout. So back to early 1950, and I was off school, laid up in bed recovering from mumps. Mum had been down the market town five miles away, and came back with a magazine she had found in Smiths to cheer me up. Did it ever? No. 3, Feb/Mar ‘50 issue of the “Railway Modeller”, then published by Ian Allan, and the first model railway magazine I had ever seen. Only a few years ago I modelled a freight car out of it, and I still harbour ambitions of doing a loco out of it. Anyhow, they were running a series on the Fry layout, called the “Irish International Railway and Tramway System”, you could take this as the North and South, but they did have British and American outline trains running as well. He lived in a bungalow in the Dublin outskirts, and had it in the loft. I lived in a bungalow, and can testify that if it’s built on a square floor plan, you can have a pyramid roof with bontles of space for a layout, but if it isn’t insulated, there’s short windows in spring and autumn when you can use it, the rest of the year it’s too hot or too cold. His was insulated, and there was a big multi track spread, oval lines feeding large stations, with tramways tacked on, and a narrow gauge layout forming in an extension, so it represented years of work. The lines were three rail 0 gauge, so fairly coarse rail and wheel standards, but the models were all meticulously made.

The Padre has posted a shot of Dunluce Castle in its gleaming red finery in the Cultra museum, here’s a picture of the Fry model, which was teamed up with the “North Atlantic Express” set. There was also a GNRI compound with the “Enterprise set”, and a GSR 800 with the “Cork Mail”. There was a selective cross section of all Ireland’s railway history, starting with the Dublin and Kingstown “Hibernia”, and straying off into Waterford and Tramore, and the Dublin and Blessington Tram. The one I particularly liked was a Midland and Great Western express, a 2-4-0 with the distinctive “fly away” cab.

in time I’m afraid Mr. Fry deceased, but a body of fans managed to move the layout to an exhibition at Malahide Castle, in a coastal town just north of Dublin. This operation must have needed a major rebuild with changes, but intensive running continued, and I read an interesting account in the GOG Gazette by one of the operating team of a days work, coming in, setting up, starting running, greeting a school party, and changing a loco motor between times. Some problem has cropped up with tenancy more recently, but the models have been moved to showcases in the “Casino” a thatched cottage at Malahide,  and backed up by some modern scenic settings, as I fancy the models themselves are rather worn out by now. There’s some links in Dons post.

Turning to the MGWR train mentioned, I turned to my Ahrons on the subject, and he starts the introduction saying “the MGWR was, perhaps, the most Irish of the main lines”, and here’s a photo from Ahrons of one of their 2-4-0s. I’ve harboured a fancy from then on for the next fifty years to do a model.

[Donw]

I thought you would come back with more info on Mr Fry's layout. I couldn't imagine that it had escaped your notice. I dont think that was the magazine I saw possibly I saw it in MRC I aquired a collection of early ones.

 

Don 

[Northroader]

By the way, Stephen I’ve just found another shot of a NCC mogul at Derby, in the shops:

sorry, I’ve done a copy, etiquette demands a link:

https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/312-ernies-massive-irish-1930s-to-2005-photo-archive/page/17/?tab=comments#comment-153802

Edited April 15, 2021 by Northroader

[Northroader]

Continuing with the tale, first off I’ve given links to some outstanding 5’3” models,

In O scale, Castle Rackrent, Arigna Town/Belmullet, Rosses Point

In OO scale, Valentia Harbour,

In S scale, Kilbrandon Junction,

To round off, with a bit more trawling,

In 3mm scale, Ballyconnell Road, https://sites.google.com/site/3mmpublic/members-layouts/ballyconnell-road

I like the roughly circular scheme, as I once had a similar job in HO, which I think saw more use than any other line I did, and I think the overlapping loops is a clever design.

in 2mm scale, Dromahair, https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/7634-dromahair/

Angus did this as an entry for a club competition, for a severely restricted space requirement, and fitted a neat extract of an actual station into the space. I gather a much larger setting is now in progress, so good luck with that. Actually the detail the 2mm guys like Angus and Jim get into their  models scares the pants off me, when you look at the amount I do in 7mm.

 

Winding the clock on, in retirement I had moved up to an uninsulated loft, and hooked on O scale, having a North American line on the go and learning the right way and the wrong way of doing things. In 1995, I did a trip to the GOG Telford show, and one of the stands there was Leinster Models. It was the last time they came over, I think, and you couldn’t wish to meet two more charming gentlemen, the McGowan brothers, really nice guys. I had a chat and a look over what they’d got, and after the economic pressure of Christmas had passed, I ordered one of their kits, what they called in their catalogue a “Bat” 0-6-0T. This was the first time I’d tried to build a loco, and it shaped how I do things ever since. We’ll have a look at the kit in the next post, just a few comments on the prototype.

The class were built for the Midland Great Western Railway, designated as “E” class, for branch line duties, particularly the Western Extensions just opening, also termed a “light” tank, as distinct from the “heavy” tank, a larger 0-6-0T working freight up the grades from the Dublin docks at North Wall to join the MGWR main line at Liffey Junction. There were 12 in all, three from Sharp Stewart in 1890, nine from Kitsons 1891-3. In keeping with MGWR practice at that time, they all had names, “Bat” being one of the names. The MGWR numbers were 106-117. They were roughly the size of a Brighton Terrier, and their light weight meant that the GSR found them quite handy. They were renumbered 551-562, and designated class J26. A few helped out on the DSER section Dublin suburban services, some were trundled through the streets of Waterford for the W&T section, and a couple went off down to the fascinating area West of Cork Albert Quay, they didn’t get scrapped until 1954-63, after full lives, so a couple of pictures, one in the prime of a MGWR branch, and one on the Courtmacsherry line towards the end.

[Compound2632]

Interesting, in the Athboy photo, to see that all the goods vehicles are covered - in Britain at this period one would expect to see a large majority of opens.

[Regularity]

52 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Interesting, in the Athboy photo, to see that all the goods vehicles are covered - in Britain at this period one would expect to see a large majority of opens.

The middle bit of the roof is canvas/tarpaulin. The “vans” doubled as cattle wagons - there seems to be evidence of lime on them, too. It was therefore more economical to build them than lots of open wagons.

Plus, it rains an awful lot in western Ireland...

[Regularity]

On 10/04/2021 at 12:16, Northroader said:

 

Ooohh, and their 2-4-0s, eh? Did you ever???

(edit: I’ve found a better picture, it was, after all, the prettiest engine the LMS ever possessed)

Yes, very nice, but from the same source (literally - they look to be variants on the H&BR Kirtley 2-4-0s, one to a wider gauge, the other with a Belpaire, but no drawings necessary) in Manchester, I see your BCD loco and raise you with EWJR/SMJR:

(Photo from my own collection.)

[Argos]

21 hours ago, Northroader said:

in 2mm scale, Dromahair, https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/7634-dromahair/

Angus did this as an entry for a club competition, for a severely restricted space requirement, and fitted a neat extract of an actual station into the space. I gather a much larger setting is now in progress, so good luck with that. Actually the detail the 2mm guys like Angus and Jim get into their  models scares the pants off me, when you look at the amount I do in 7mm.

 

Wow! I wasn't expecting to be mentioned in such illustrious company!

Dromahair was being built for the 2mm scale Association diamond Jubilee competition at the annual exhibition in June 2020, which was postponed to 2021 and guess what happened? the event is now July 2022 so I have a new deadline.

I've decided to move back the date setting of the layout as I can't resist the lure of the Irish pre-grouping colour schemes.

 

I'm hoping the motivation will land soon to start up again.

I'll post some updates here and on Irish RM web when it does.

[Northroader]

I wondered why the pace on Dromohair had slowed down, what I liked was the way you tailored a specific Irish setting to a very limited area. Something that I particularly like to to see is a layout making best use of space, I hate layouts that sprawl. Your posts are very welcome here anytime, Angus, and I’m looking forward to seeing how Sligo shapes.

Edited April 22, 2021 by Northroader

[Argos]

Thanks Northroader,

 

Dromahair does have its own topic over here on RMweb I try to avoid duplicate posting with the topic on Irish RM web as I am aware many people read both. I try to focus on the 2mm modelling element here and Irish Railway modelling element on Irish RM web.

 

[Caley Jim]

25 minutes ago, Argos said:

Wow! I wasn't expecting to be mentioned in such illustrious company!

Presuming you mean me as 'Illustrious company' (and that is probably a big assumption), Angus, I'm flattered.     I don't consider myself as being in the top echelon of 2mm modellers by any means!   I'm just bodging and fettling away on my desk here, working on the 'if it looks OK from 2ft away that'll do me' principle!

 

Jim

[Regularity]

1 hour ago, Caley Jim said:

working on the 'if it looks OK from 2ft away that'll do me' principle!

To be fair, in your chosen scale, that works out as 4mm, which is pretty close inspection...

 

[Northroader]

On 21/04/2021 at 22:10, Compound2632 said:

Interesting, in the Athboy photo, to see that all the goods vehicles are covered - in Britain at this period one would expect to see a large majority of opens.

Good point, what’s in the goods yard sidings? I have one copy of the Athboy picture from the Railway Magazine, captioned as being in 1905. There a string of convertible wagons, bearing limewash from cattle traffic, but the midroof tarpaulins are still in place. To me this suggests they are not off for cattle immediately, but in reserve to be called on at the next peak, as I would imagine there were fluctuations with the cattle fairs. You may also spot two variations in the bodysides height.  Some old pictures do show lines of convertibles waiting in sidings like this. In 1892, the general manager of the MGWR was giving evidence to an enquiry into hours worked, and said the previous year they had worked 5580 goods trains, including 1723 cattle specials, carrying 835,018 head of cattle from 1150 fairs. In 1916 goods train revenue had 26% from cattle traffic.

There were articles in the IRRTS journal Feb 1970, by Padraig Cumin, “Wagons of the MGWR” from which you can take some figures, although it would have been nice to have a complete tabulation. Nevertheless, there were 972 convertibles out of a goods wagon fleet total of 1719 in 1872, and in 1924 1613 out of a fleet of 3319.

Around 1915 steel underframes were introduced, and opens and vans built to the IRCH spec were appearing, which would form an element in the 1924 figures. One of the traffics the “continuous roof” vans were used for was from Guinness Brewery.

There were in addition wagons dedicated solely for cattle traffic, a cattle van but roofless, termed “crib” wagons. In 1872 there were 268.The last 100 were built in 1895, and I think following Board of Trade pressure on animal welfare, roofed cattle wagons appeared from 1899, and cribs started have roofs added. Covered wagons had become more numerous than cribs by 1912 at 430. (Cribs died hard on the narrow gauge, as the photos of specials in the fifties on the Dingle peninsula show) The design of the wagons had much in common with the convertibles. Here’s one of each ready for a cattle train.

 

i gather the wagon fleet total included civil engineers wagons, such as ballast, and also brake vans. There were some timber wagons, also a handful of specials, such as “boiler and furniture van wagons” (it would be nice to have details of these, plus an Irish pantechnicon?) whilst the full figures aren’t given, it would seem that just over a quarter of the fleet would be opens, quite a low proportion compared to Britain.

Private owner wagons seem to be rarities, I’ve only found three examples, which appear to be coal agents based on a port. Looking at a map of Ireland, all the main cities are on the coast with harbour access, and import coal from Britain was shipped over in coasting vessels. Another transhipment would add to the cost, so would distribution to the small inland country towns be economical for domestic purposes compared with peat or firewood? Any commercial power needs would probably done by water, such as milling or textiles. The MGWR needed coal for its locomotives, having a dedicated fleet of opens for the countrywide sheds, besides specialised hoppers for the main shed at the Broadstone.

 

The book shown below is very useful for modellers, as it contains drawings at the back for a few of the main locos, ditto for sixwheel coaches, plus some wagons which I used for the above models. Alphagraphix also do some good value card kits to get a nice selection of convertibles, with lettering for pregroup, GSR and CIE.

 

 

Edited April 24, 2021 by Northroader

[Donw]

Like the Waggons. Interesting the dfferences between the UK and Ireland.  Is it possibly due to the more rural economy of Ireland so traffics like Iron Ore  wouldn't be needed. There would have been less cities than in the UK perhaps things tended to be sourced locally.

 

If you need an office for solicitors on a layout can I suggest Shenanigins & Malarky  would be a good name. Sound Irish to me anyway.

 

Much more of this and I will be in danger of having to buy new track gauges.

 

Don